A very weird idea I just had to share about Sevatar

[A D-B]

Sure, but Garro being psychic or not is kind of tangential. I mean that really is something that could conceivably be a "newer" advent as it has to do with how GK do things and not who they are. In other words, it's essentially a form of weapon that they have, like their halberds and their psycannons, and sure it's not something they physically carry but it has no bearing on what kind of men are employing said weapon.

 

But that's categorically not true. The Grey Knights have to be psychic. They're the last line of defence. Humanity's ruthless, absolute elite. They have to be psychic to stand against the challenges they face. Not being psychic is simply not a possibility.

 

Do you see? You saying a Grey Knight doesn't have to be psychic is as nonsensical to me as you saying no Traitor can defect later in the war and bring his convictions with him, after changing his heart after seeing what's really out there. I literally can't equate what you're saying with how I understand the universe.

 

I have to say, if I didn't already know how Sev's fate would play out, this thread would make it hard to choose. That said, in all fairness, one side is coming across with intricate knowledge of 40K's angles and narrative nuance, and the other is sort of just saying "Nope. Just because."

[Rain]

Do you seriously not see the difference between "the Grey Knights have weapons X Y and Z that they use to fight daemons" and "the Grey Knights must be unswervingly loyal to the Emperor in order to be Grey Knights". Psychic ability is a physical mutation, a weapon essentially that is very effective and therefore highly desirable for GK recruits, loyalty is what allows the investment in them in the first place to make sense. You can have a psyker with a force halberd lead a Black Legion warband, it's just an Astartes with certain weapons, but what truly defines a GK is personality traits, and I would say chief among them is loyalty, this is why there is not a record of a GK falling to Chaos, because loyalty and purity are the foundation upon which the whole edifice is built, it's what remains when you strip away the silver armor, and the cool wrist guns, and the ability to make things explode with your mind.

 

Oh and no, we are not saying "just because" and frankly the fact that you would put it that way is a bit sad. At worst it's a divergence in interpretation of fictional material, what is "narrative nuance" to you may be contrived nonsense for someone else, which I guess is what the discussion is about.

[A D-B]

I think one of the most interesting misunderstandings with any author/reader showdown is that readers tend to assume authors like (and in some cases, love) their characters. Worse, that any character with competency is a "Mary Sue", almost always used in the wrong context. Sev is a good example. He has skills (and an overall character arc) comparable to any other First Captain, and less grand, majestic and impressive than many of them. But his newness marks him out to some.

 

I often wonder if Drizzt, Wolverine, Blade and Deadpool really are beloved by their creators, or - as hired guns for licenses they love - those writers were creating characters that the readership wants. It's not that there's no depth to be found in them, it's that any depth is usually disregarded or ignored - or simply boycotted in the writing in favour of fan service. I think I'd like a crack at a character like that one day, to introduce conviction and depth to one of them.

 

It's not always a writer's job to write what they want to read. It's to write as part of a group, or to write to fit the license. On a similar note, the amount of sexual content and swearing cut from my work (either by editors, or by me knowing there's no point) is pretty vast.

 

One of my favourite novels is Misery. It was such an achingly insightful look into certain authorial dilemmas about the characters they create that the melancholy of understanding those dilemmas was more horrifying to me than the actual horror.

[A D-B]

Do you seriously not see the difference between "the Grey Knights have weapons X Y and Z that they use to fight daemons" and "the Grey Knights must be unswervingly loyal to the Emperor in order to be Grey Knights".

 

No, thank God. That would be stupid and taking some pretty well-explained points out of context. And I like to think we're above that level.

 

You think the psychic ability is tangential. Cool. Awesome. I think it's a thematically vital aspect to their role and what they do. They simply couldn't function as Grey Knights without it, given what they have to do, and it's a distinct aspect in what sets them apart.

 

You think loyalty to the Emperor that has never, ever come into question is the main requirement to be a Grey Knight. I agree. However, I'm saying there's also narrative context and realistic basis for there to be situations like this:

 

"I never betrayed the Emperor."

 

"That's great, kid. I did, and saw what's really going on out there. And I chose to fight on this side, after I saw what was happening. You just covered your ears and ran for Terra. Who's more qualified to fight what's coming?"

 

...in an era of chaos, compromise and the galaxy itself burning. It may not be as simple as "My brothers rebelled and I immediately ran away to Terra." At no point have I said I'm speaking about Sevatar, but there may be several Traitors who haven't defected yet, and if you genuinely see no narrative realism or nuanced development in that, it's not my place to convince you. I wish you well with it. I find your angle a little shallow and unconvincing, just as you find mine unrelatable / unpalatable. No harm, no foul.

[Rain]

I didn't really say that Sev is a Mary Sue, though I did imply that him being accepted into the GK would make him one. Why? Because again, as you said, you are writing in an already existing universe and in collaboration with others as part of a larger mythos and writing him in as becoming a GK grandmaster after clearly being a traitor and killing loyalists at Istvaan screams of "my guy is special so he gets to do everything". That said, he can still become a loyalist again and it could potentially make perfect sense, but the universe wouldn't just conform to his new frame of reference and let him become a GK. He would become a pariah among both loyalist and traitors, which would lend weight to his actions and make his decision to turn back to the Imperium have gravity and real consequences instead of him getting to become one of the galaxy's most renowned badasses as a prize.

 

Anyway, don't worry I'm not going to kneecap you if you write him becoming a GK, I will just disagree with that choice and think it was a lapse in your normally gripping and consistent narratives.

 

Edit: Ok, I'm going to be leaving this thread I guess as it seems to be moving toward a minor flamewar between me and one of the reasons people come to this board, but again, I am not arguing that someone who is seen as a traitor could come to new realizations or adopt a new frame of reference that could lead them to leave Horus et al in favor of the Emperor. All I am arguing is that the Imperials would not trust such an individual, nor would they have any reason to which would make said individual's existence rather difficult as they would be hated or at best severely mistrusted by both sides. They wouldn't be made a GK, at best they would be sent on a suicide mission, at worst they would be tortured and executed.

[A D-B]

I didn't really say that Sev is a Mary Sue (snip)

 

Naw, I know, I just like typing tangential stuff.

 

...and avoiding the Word.doc open on my other screen. Hnngh.

 

Back to work.

 

Edit: Ok, I'm going to be leaving this thread I guess as it seems to be moving toward a minor flamewar

 

EDIT: Hell, no. If so, that's my fault, Rain. I always listen to what you post. I'd never actually actively try to be a (censored) to you. I even agree with half of what you're saying. I just find the other half a bit ... hidebound and shallow. I know you're not shallow and lame. I just see this point being a bit like that. It's cool.

 

I should be working anyway, so I'll go do that. I have... 11 hours to finish Betrayer.

[Kol Saresk]

I've been thinking about it. If Sevatar did turn Loyalist agian, where else would he go but the Grey Knights/Knight Errants? It's basically the Chapter of Misfit Astartes when you think about it. Loken Garro, and so many other Members of Traitors Legions and even a few of the Loyalist ones. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily be the biggest of fan of it, but it's more of a possibility than "Just because he's a latent psyker, has a halberd and was a traitor." I don't know how you would get over the whole "Death to the Imperium" bit he currently has going on, but maybe that's why I'm not an author.

[Phoebus]

Rain, with all due respect, what I find to be "a bit silly" is a zinger like "we need every man we can get so I guess you can fight for us". Not simply because I disagree with it (which I do), but because it ignores the stated driving theme of the ongoing story behind Garro and his Knights Errant.

 

What do I mean by that? Garro isn't randomly running into Rubio or Loken as he traipses about the Galaxy. The Knights Errant (presumably, the future Grey Knights) aren't Space Marines who seek out Garro and ask to join up. Malcador the Sigillite - the second most powerful psyker in the Imperium, and the Emperor's right-hand man - is sending Garro to specific places, on specific missions to either recruit warriors or gather information.

 

So, if Sevatar does join the Imperium, I don't think it's going to be because he marched in there (somehow) and simply talked his way into their good graces. It will have been because (again, simply conjecture on my part) the second most powerful man in the Imperium is seeking out a certain group of individuals around whom he will form a secretive order of warriors that the rest of the Imperium at that time won't even have a full-formed clue about.

 

So again... no offense, man, but how does "we need every man we can get so I guess you can fight for us" have anything to do with the established stories?

 

... it's more of a possibility than "Just because he's a latent psyker, has a halberd and was a traitor."

Well of course! :P

 

I mean, those traits you mentioned are just the hints.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I'm not convinced that Garro's A-Team have anything to do with the formation of the grey knights. The Grey Knights where described as a seperate plan by the emperor. a fallback that got stuck out of sight while the heresy was in full flame and came back as a fully trained and organised chapter.

 

Garro's A-Team seems a bit more specialised and role specific. He's being directed to put together a special ops unit and I have a feeling it is for a specific job to be later revealed.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I'm not convinced that Garro's A-Team have anything to do with the formation of the grey knights. The Grey Knights where described as a seperate plan by the emperor. a fallback that got stuck out of sight while the heresy was in full flame and came back as a fully trained and organised chapter.

 

Garro's A-Team seems a bit more specialised and role specific. He's being directed to put together a special ops unit and I have a feeling it is for a specific job to be later revealed.

 

You must not have listened to Burden of Duty. Don't see how if you had, you could be holding on to this line of thinking.

 

I've been thinking about it. If Sevatar did turn Loyalist agian, where else would he go but the Grey Knights/Knight Errants? It's basically the Chapter of Misfit Astartes when you think about it. Loken Garro, and so many other Members of Traitors Legions and even a few of the Loyalist ones.

 

You see to be leaving out the most important quality that all the others have, and Sev dose not. Loyalty to the Emperor above all others. None of the Knight Errants are misfits by any stretch of the meaning. Outcast, Bad @$$, possessing talents that have been restrained, yes. Sevatar was Maybe loyal to Cruze and his brothers, maybe. He could be outcast and was certainly bad @$$ enough, and he had the self restrained talents like Rubio, but not one hint of any love for the Emperor at all.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

I often wonder if Drizzt, Wolverine, Blade and Deadpool really are beloved by their creators, or - as hired guns for licenses they love - those writers were creating characters that the readership wants. It's not that there's no depth to be found in them, it's that any depth is usually disregarded or ignored - or simply boycotted in the writing in favour of fan service. I think I'd like a crack at a character like that one day, to introduce conviction and depth to one of them.

ADB: I'd think authors both love and hate and despise their characters. I used to converse with Bob Salvatore alot via email when I was just out of high school as an avid DnD'er and fan boy (like circa 98-2000). I no longer have the emails but Salvatore loved Drizzt but would get frustrated by the wants, needs, expectations of the fan base towards the character. Funny thing is I started out writing about the Star Wars book Vector Prime, where Bob kills off Chewbacca. Not exactly something which was popular (I was an angry fanboy) but it was never his decision to make and was forced on him. My anger turned from rage to surprise that the SW Universe people would think killing Chewy was a good idea and force a favorite pen to execute this heinous plan! For Bob, that is a big bullet to bite on right there.

 

One of Salvatore's biggest gripes about the Uber-Munchkin was the cast of characters surrounding Drizzt and how Salvatore yearned to return Drizzt to a life of exile and struggle but the popularity of the Mithral Hall gang would prevent this from occurring, leaving Drizzt to do his group 'Imma Dark Skin-Paladin' thing. In one email I remember Salvatore talking about killing Guen off because he was tired of trying to write new and exciting ways to describe a "800 lbs raging ball of claws, fur and muscle." Salvatore loves Drizzt as a character (although I recall he was a made-up character and not one from one of his table-top campaigns) that he created but in sharing him with the public and the Munchkin's popularity amongst so many fans, Salvatore just kind of got stuck in a 40k like time-warp with Drizzt's development. He wanted to do more but the money, fanbase would not allow it and experiences like Chewbacca Backlash will obviously make you VERY careful about how you handle VERY popular characters. It took Salvatore nearly a decade from when I last spoke with him to put Drizzt in the place today that he wanted so long ago as a "Lone Ranger" and to let the character grow that way in universe as opposed to just in his mind. It is very hard to write with true freedom as to how you want an established character (even your own) to evolve and grow with the pressures of balancing the work aspects, personal artistic expression and crafting a solid piece of prose while tip-toeing around an angry fan-base. I am sure all those authors/creators you mentioned love their characters but hurting your bottom line takes food from the table and for many that is more important than artistic expression. Besides, you can always write another story later to fix things (staring directly at you Dark Tower saga) the way you like it :) If not, this is the Internet age: someone will write a terrible fan-fiction, of that you can guarantee.

 

Very excited for Betrayer by the way!

[Phoebus]

You see to be leaving out the most important quality that all the others have, and Sev dose not. Loyalty to the Emperor above all others. None of the Knight Errants are misfits by any stretch of the meaning. Outcast, Bad @$$, possessing talents that have been restrained, yes. Sevatar was Maybe loyal to Cruze and his brothers, maybe. He could be outcast and was certainly bad @$$ enough, and he had the self restrained talents like Rubio, but not one hint of any love for the Emperor at all.

A D-B offered some interesting thoughts on this, above. :)

[Wade Garrett]

My main issue with Sevatar returning to the Imperium can be summed up simply:

 

Sevatar is very, very, loyal to Konrad Curze. In Prince of Crows, he goes into two situations that were pretty much death sentences (unlocking his talents to enter Konrad's mind, and leading the Atramentar into the Invincible Reason) because of said loyalty. Now, we already know how Konrad's story ends, that there is no redemption for the Night Haunter. Therefore, for Sevatar to return to the Imperium he would have to betray his Primarch...to break his one true loyalty, which he has clung to above his Emperor, his home planet, his brothers Night Lords, and even his own trusted comrades in the Atramentar (considering how he threw them into Curze's kamikaze run on the Invincible Reason).

 

And I just can't see him doing that. Maybe if Curze was in a Mortarion or Fulgrim situation, warped beyond recognition by the powers of the Warp, but that's not the case here. The only difference I can see between the pre and post Heresy VIII Legion is their battle cries and who they're directing their terror tactics at. Look at the way Konrad is described in the fight onboard the Lion's ship, from what I imagine is Sevatar's point of view, as a reborn, transcendant figure who has "reclaimed the glory that is his as a primarch".

 

Now, I'm not going to tell a best selling author whose work I have elbowed people in the chest to grab the last availibe copy of that he can't write his own :) character in such a way that the First Captain turning from Curze and going back to the Emperor would not be "dumb" and "impossible". After all, Abaddon has been written as being just as loyal to Horus, and the Abaddon of current 40K loathes the Warmaster as a failure and a weakling. It's just that AS SEVATAR HAS BEEN WRITTEN SO FAR, I can't ever see him leaving his gene sire's forces this side of the grave.

[Perrin]

There's also the possibility that Garro recruits more than 8 marines, but only 8 were still alive when Malcador put his GK plan into effect (if they are the GKs). With the kind of missions that Garro has been sent on so far it doesn't seem likely that all of his knights could survive 7 years of war. Although the later they're recruited the less time they have to survive for, from the audiences perspective.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Sure, but Garro being psychic or not is kind of tangential. I mean that really is something that could conceivably be a "newer" advent as it has to do with how GK do things and not who they are. In other words, it's essentially a form of weapon that they have, like their halberds and their psycannons, and sure it's not something they physically carry but it has no bearing on what kind of men are employing said weapon.

 

But that's categorically not true. The Grey Knights have to be psychic. They're the last line of defence. Humanity's ruthless, absolute elite. They have to be psychic to stand against the challenges they face. Not being psychic is simply not a possibility.

 

Do you see? You saying a Grey Knight doesn't have to be psychic is as nonsensical to me as you saying no Traitor can defect later in the war and bring his convictions with him, after changing his heart after seeing what's really out there. I literally can't equate what you're saying with how I understand the universe.

 

I have to say, if I didn't already know how Sev's fate would play out, this thread would make it hard to choose. That said, in all fairness, one side is coming across with intricate knowledge of 40K's angles and narrative nuance, and the other is sort of just saying "Nope. Just because."

 

 

We know from the Collected Visions that the 8 founding Grey Knight Grandmasters were both "Gifted" and Loyaly with out Doubt to the Emperor.

 

Before Malcador the Sigillite ascended to the Golden Throne he had one last duty to perform. As He stood before the Emperor he was accompanied by a group of twelve hooded attendants. Malcador looked up at the Emperor and at the machine to which he was bound.

 

'Sire, when last we met you commanded me to gather together a group of people whose loyalty to you and the Imperium was unquestioning. This I have done. I have worked long and hard to find those I thought would suit. I have personally overseen every aspect of the exhaustive test to which they have been subjected and can vouch for their character, loyalty and strength of their mind. They have many skills and will serve you well.'

 

Malcador gestured to the hooded figures behind him, as he did so four of them stepped forward and knelt before the Emperor. The Emperor nodded and acknowledgment of the their show of fealty to him.

 

'Sire, these others are known to you. Each of them is a Space Marine . They have cast aside their allegiance to Primarch and Legion who have sided with Horus and pledged themselves anew to you, their Emperor and father. I have chosen these eight since allied to their unflinching loyalty they each are blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous command. However these skills are most apt in combating the horrors that have recently emerged from the warp and I know they will be needed in the coming years'

 

'Malcador you have judged well, these eight Space Marines do indeed have a vital role to play in the future of the Imperium, though veiled in secrecy will they be.'

 

If people want to include characters onto a list that involves the Founding of the grey Knights they need to include those who have both Loyalty and mind powers. I think both Loken and Garro are on the list of 8. Because they have a good amount of material focusing on them, i feel it necessary to show that both are possible Psykers. Although I'm accused of being ("LOKEN IS A PSYKER BECAUSE OF... UH, REASONS?") kinda guy, i try and find quotes from books that back my line of thinking. I want to be one of those "intricate knowledge of 40K's angles and narrative nuance," people. Those who want/ think Sevatar is on the list, seem willing to brush the loyalty issue under the rug. I think they are wrong, but on the same level proof that the Garro is Janus folks are with out any effort to show his mind strength. Burden of Duty, address this topic, directly.

[A D-B]

Practically everything mentioned in Collected Visions has changed one way or another.

 

Now, I'm not going to tell a best selling author whose work I have elbowed people in the chest to grab the last availibe copy of that he can't write his own :) character in such a way that the First Captain turning from Curze and going back to the Emperor would not be "dumb" and "impossible". After all, Abaddon has been written as being just as loyal to Horus, and the Abaddon of current 40K loathes the Warmaster as a failure and a weakling. It's just that AS SEVATAR HAS BEEN WRITTEN SO FAR, I can't ever see him leaving his gene sire's forces this side of the grave.

 

Well, I mean, I completely agree. And I wasn't really debating it on the virtues or merits of Sevatar, but the concept itself. Defectors will defect, on both sides, as the war goes on and characters develop. That's realistic.

 

We'll have to see how it plays out in terms of the Grey Knights, and how much of their old lore stays the same.

 

Betrayer deadline in 7 hours. Break over.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Practically everything mentioned in Collected Visions has changed one way or another.

 

Well How about the Grey Knight Codex, under The Founding pg 6.

 

 

In the stern silence the Emperor surveyed the robed figures that Malcador had brought before him, and saw that his faithful servant had done well. Of the twelve, four were lords and administrators posessed of inquisitive nature and unyealding strength of mind. The other eight were space marines whose abilities were as peerless as their dedication to the Emperor. Some hailed from Legions that had abandoned the Emperor's light in favour of Horus' dark promises, but these brothers had never lost their loyalty and had fought the heresy from within. Fulsome in his approval of the selection, the Emperor bade Malcador proceed with the next stage of his plan.

 

I find the Collected Visions to be very accurate, if a bit vague. The Devil is in the details of course but on the whole i don't see blatant false hoods.

[A D-B]

Practically everything mentioned in Collected Visions has changed one way or another.

 

Well How about the Grey Knight Codex, under The Founding pg 6.

 

Ah, yeah. The book that's a total reworking of the Grey Knights from previous editions, in a license that changes its lore with every release. And a handful of sentences that may change under actual narrative expansion, the way almost everything does.

 

For really reals.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah the new Codex was a serious revamp of GK fluff. They added entirely new units(Dreadknights, Purificators), had Grey Knights who used daemon weapons(Can we say radicals?) and then there's Draigo. Yeah, leaving that one alone.

 

Basically, the fluff is constantly changing in both small and big ways over the years. Just the way the dice fall.

[Phoebus]

But it's not just that. We can't ignore the fact that much of the fluff is written in the sense that it represents Imperial lore that is ten thousand years old.

 

I mean, who is saying in Codex: Grey Knights that "these brothers had never lost their loyalty"? Unless it was someone who was there, and who also has no motive to paint a pretty picture (by not impugning the honour of such puissant champions), you can't take such a statement as the verbatim, unadulterated truth.

[Liliedhe]

Love this discussion. The thought of Sevvie being Khyron had occurred to me, but only after I began reading it on fora. The second I read Khyron's epitaph, I said "He was a Night Lord", though. Just maybe a less famous one. ^^

[b1soul]

I think the tie - loose as it is - lies less with the author assuming halberds are rare within the Grey Knights and more with something I thought would be strikingly obvious... That is, the halberd is rare among the first eight Grey Knights.

 

We still have four more recruits to go, so I suppose that one of them could end up being a wielder of the halberd. Or one of the first four recruits might switch to it. But in a fictional universe where the authors can, and do, offer such connections as teasers or homages for observant readers to find, I'm loath to dismiss such a unique connection.

Uh...its not obvious that the halberd is a rare weapon among the original gm. You make the claim but shoot yourself in the foot right after making it. As youve pointed out, several gm remain to be introduced, some of the gm may have switched to the halberd, and furthermore, its likely that the gm didnt always stick to the same weapon

 

Let me ask you this...if the halberd was a weapon commonly available to the gk, what r the chances that not a single one of the original gm wielded a halberd?

[Phoebus]

You're conflating 40k Grey Knights with 30k Space Marines, b1soul. At this point, there are no Grey Knights as we know them, nor do their traditions, heraldry, institutions, etc., exist.

 

In 40k, Nemesis Halberds are exceedingly common among Grey Knights - both in fluff and in Codex rules. In 30k, exactly how many Space Marines are shown going around with halberds, spears, or similar weapons? Don't worry, it's a moot point. Again, in the real world, even such long odds would amount to little more than coincidence. In a fictional universe, though, when the same author has written two stories that feature the same loose themes between two characters who only he has written about, and who carry themselves the same, ostensibly speak in similar tones, wield the same weapons, and who both happened to be traitors... one absolutely has the right to argue that it's more than coincidence without being outright dismissed (as was the case earlier in this thread).

 

What it really comes down to is, you're not arguing against the odds of it being Sevatar who becomes Khyron given that there must be tons of Space Marines out there wielding halberds - even if they are rarely depicted anywhere. You're arguing against the odds that the author who wrote both "The Emperor's Gift" and "Prince of Crows" unconsciously/coincidentally threw out loose connections between these two characters (whom, again, no one else has written about) without any intent of hinting at something.

 

No offense friend, but I wouldn't take that bet if I were you. :)

[Balthamal]

Personally I think it would be a stretch, but 1 hell of a cool 1 to have the Prince turn out to be a Grand Master. I always had an inkling the Khyron would turn out to be a word bearer as the Knights needed some source of warp lore/sorcery to fight it in the first place.

 

Something that is also fairly interesting and could support the theory though is the prologue to Void Stalker where Sevatar is quoted in the "Tenebrous Path"

 

The whole theme of brothers does match up fairly nicely

[Bulwyf]

I said it before and I'll say again: I can totally see Sev turning back to the Imperium. If there is one thing I've seen from the NL consistently from ADB is that they are pragmatists to the core. Sev is loyal to Curze now in the HH timeline, sure, but is it really a stretch to see him being disaffected by Chaos or Curze just literally giving up and accepting death?

 

Not a stretch at all to me. I can see Sev turning his back on the Traitors out of disgust and being offered a chance to fight for something he at least doesn't completely despise.