A very weird idea I just had to share about Sevatar

[Epistolary Exander]

Its a stretch that Sevetar could go loyal, but its not like the opposite hasnt happened: A traitor legion marine fighting in the loyalist corner only to switch sides and to return to his legion.

[Arachnid99]

I always had an inkling the Khyron would turn out to be a word bearer as the Knights needed some source of warp lore/sorcery to fight it in the first place.

 

That strikes me as a very "interesting" idea. On one hand a degree of knowledge about the Warp would have obvious uses for the proto-Grey Knights, on the other hand if the 30k proto-Grey Knights aren't defined by their loyalty to the Emperor they have to be defined by their opposition to Chaos and the Warp and a Word Bearer, warp-touched Librarian/Sorcerer strikes me as on the wrong side of that line.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Practically everything mentioned in Collected Visions has changed one way or another.

 

Well How about the Grey Knight Codex, under The Founding pg 6.

 

Ah, yeah. The book that's a total reworking of the Grey Knights from previous editions, in a license that changes its lore with every release. And a handful of sentences that may change under actual narrative expansion, the way almost everything does.

 

For really reals.

 

Hmm OK, how about in Burden of Duty?

Track 5 starting at 1:35 to 1:47, the Mind power link is made. Then track 6, 2:51 - 3:27, Garro makes his "hard" sell to Masak. The Loyalty aspect is addressed directly.

 

[Liliedhe]

I said it before and I'll say again: I can totally see Sev turning back to the Imperium. If there is one thing I've seen from the NL consistently from ADB is that they are pragmatists to the core. Sev is loyal to Curze now in the HH timeline, sure, but is it really a stretch to see him being disaffected by Chaos or Curze just literally giving up and accepting death?

 

Not a stretch at all to me. I can see Sev turning his back on the Traitors out of disgust and being offered a chance to fight for something he at least doesn't completely despise.

 

But he despises everything. Including himself.

 

Now, as I said, I like the idea. I don't consider it very likely, but I like it.

 

 

Maybe the Dark Angels will simply drop him off in Malcadors backyard giftwrapped with a pink bow on top... And Malcie starts perfecting the Grey Knight mindwipe on him. :)

 

For the record, this is a joke.

 

[facmanpob]

You think loyalty to the Emperor that has never, ever come into question is the main requirement to be a Grey Knight. I agree. However, I'm saying there's also narrative context and realistic basis for there to be situations like this:

 

"I never betrayed the Emperor."

 

"That's great, kid. I did, and saw what's really going on out there. And I chose to fight on this side, after I saw what was happening. You just covered your ears and ran for Terra. Who's more qualified to fight what's coming?"

 

...in an era of chaos, compromise and the galaxy itself burning. It may not be as simple as "My brothers rebelled and I immediately ran away to Terra." At no point have I said I'm speaking about Sevatar, but there may be several Traitors who haven't defected yet, and if you genuinely see no narrative realism or nuanced development in that, it's not my place to convince you. I wish you well with it. I find your angle a little shallow and unconvincing, just as you find mine unrelatable / unpalatable. No harm, no foul.

I find this the most interesting part of the discussion. If I can bring in an analogy from another Sci-Fi milieu that has seen its share of ups, downs and canon changes......Star Wars!

 

Q: Who is more loyal to the rebellion?

 

Luke Skywalker? - farm boy from backwater planet who really has little contextual knowledge of the Empire or the rebellion, but thinks that the Empire is bad

Han Solo? - smuggler who operates outside of the law and who is dragged into the conflict due to a combination of rampant libido and an undercurrent of not being a bad guy deep down

General Crix Madine? - Imperial Officer who defects to the Rebellion after losing faith with some of the things he has to do for the Empire and successfully plans the commando raid on Endor

 

On the surface, its Luke, with Han being just the opportunist. But there is an argument for Madine due to his making a conscious decision to act. As the old saying goes, there's no-one more anti-smoking than a reformed smoker! :)

[Corsair]

There is a distinct argument to be made regarding the value of finding one's faith after losing your way versus blindly following a belief without it ever really being tested.

 

If nothing else, humanity seems to have a knack for going all-in when they betray their own kind; just look into Nazi-occupied Europe for several examples of this mindset.

 

For Sevatar, I do not believe betraying the Imperium was what it was about (or even really thought of as a betrayal as such), so much as it was remaining by his father's side. Were he to subsequently betray that father, I could see him making a hard turn and really embracing the cause with Garro's merry men, provided he had sufficient reason.

 

I'm not saying I subscribe to this theory, but there is nothing crazy about it as a concept, and I believe we will see more swapping of sides for both traitor and loyalist as time goes on; if nothing else, there would be marines scattered all over the galaxy who never even got the traitor memo until well after the fact.

 

To everyone who is so rigidly arguing against the idea a traitor could successfully return to the fold, a question: if a traitor Primarch had returned and begged forgiveness, do you honestly believe he would not have been welcomed back? What if he brought his legion?

 

What if the legion returned without their Primarch and begged to redeem themselves?

 

Remembering that this is, as ADB pointed out, not the 40K Imperium, but a 30K government reeling from a civil war and desperate for any edge.

[Wade Garrett]

Ah yes, the "kinder and gentler" 30K Imperium. The same one that wiped out Throne knows how many alien civilizations and human civilizations that weren't human enough (the Diasporex and the planetary population slaughtered by the Word Bearers and Custodes come to mind) and sent the Wolves to purge the Thousand Sons for offenses much less severe than trying to overthrow the Emperor and slaughtering countless numbers of their fellow troops. I can totally see those guys welcoming back a Traitor Primarch or his Legion as long as they said they were really sorry about that whole Isstvan thing.

 

Does anyone really think that Corax and the Raven Guard would fight alongside ANY of the Legions that sided with Horus after the Drop Site Massacre? Or that Guilliman would accept a repentant Lorgar after Calth? Sorry, people who want to see some of the really cool traitors "redeemed", there's a point where you cannot go home again and after Isstvan the Traitor Legions have skipped merrily past it. The best such a reptentant could hope for would be a quick death, with the executioner announcing "Your sins have been forgiven. But your crimes must still be punished."

 

Blood and ashes, the above was the fate of a REMEMBRANCER who was returned to the Imperium after a stint with the post Betrayal Sons of Horus, delivered by the hand of Rogal Dorn himself. And people think twofold-traitor Astartes would be welcomed back with open arms?

 

 

I'm not even going to start on my other pet peeve that this thread is poking at, the fact that going from the BL stuff about 50-60% of the traitor Legions were in fact Loyalists, which makes one wonder how the Heresy ever got off the ground to begin with. Warsmith Dantioch, Garro, Loken, Saul Tarvitz, Omegon, and many...many....MANY others. Although it does make me have more respect for the First Warmaster's skills, since he did so much while being outnumbered three to one.

 

Meanwhile on the "Loyalist Traitor" front we have one Raven Guard hanging out with the Night Lords and such members of the Dark Angels as the Lion were not needed for the Great Crusade and were better off being put out to pasture on Caliban. Blast and be-bother!

[Inquisitor Engel]

Meanwhile on the "Loyalist Traitor" front we have one Raven Guard hanging out with the Night Lords

 

I'd like to see more of this guy and his story. It's stated that the Night Lords captured him at Isstvan and Sevatar tortured him pretty hard, going so far as removing his tongue. Whether he was tortured to assure his loyalty or he changed allegiance after the torture isn't directly addressed.

 

I enjoyed his inclusion and it sets the precedence that the Night Lords accept members of other Legions.

[Phoebus]

Ah yes, the "kinder and gentler" 30K Imperium.

...

Does anyone really think that Corax and the Raven Guard would fight alongside ANY of the Legions that sided with Horus after the Drop Site Massacre?

...

Blood and ashes, the above was the fate of a REMEMBRANCER who was returned to the Imperium after a stint with the post Betrayal Sons of Horus, delivered by the hand of Rogal Dorn himself. And people think twofold-traitor Astartes would be welcomed back with open arms?

...

I'm not even going to start on my other pet peeve that this thread is poking at, the fact that going from the BL stuff about 50-60% of the traitor Legions were in fact Loyalists, which makes one wonder how the Heresy ever got off the ground to begin with. Warsmith Dantioch, Garro, Loken, Saul Tarvitz, Omegon, and many...many....MANY others. Although it does make me have more respect for the First Warmaster's skills, since he did so much while being outnumbered three to one.

Two things:

 

1. You're conflating the the various Loyalist characters with the entirety of their Legion. Is that valid, though? As early as as "Galaxy in Flames", we knew that the four traitor Legions needed to purge roughly a third of their warriors due to their loyalties to Terra. Almost every character you mentioned was used as a vehicle to show to the reader the tragedy of this massive betrayal.

 

2. Again, I think it's worth remembering that the basic premise of the Garro stories is that he's not taking "volunteers", nor is he running into candidates randomly. In each case thus far, he's been sent out by Malcador to find either a specific warrior or to go to a specific place and find a warrior. So again, if Sevatar is brought into the Grey Knights, I don't it's because the "kinder and gentler" Imperium will buy off on him being repentant and remorseful. It will probably have been because the second most powerful man (and, potentially, the second most powerful psyker) in the Imperium decided he wanted Sevatar specifically. Furthermore, should this actually happen, why should we assume that the identities of any of Garro's warriors will be common knowledge to the Legions or their Primarchs?

 

Meanwhile on the "Loyalist Traitor" front we have one Raven Guard hanging out with the Night Lords

 

I'd like to see more of this guy and his story. It's stated that the Night Lords captured him at Isstvan and Sevatar tortured him pretty hard, going so far as removing his tongue. Whether he was tortured to assure his loyalty or he changed allegiance after the torture isn't directly addressed.

 

I enjoyed his inclusion and it sets the precedence that the Night Lords accept members of other Legions.

What other story was the Raven included in?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Billuriye]

Ah yes, the "kinder and gentler" 30K Imperium. The same one that wiped out Throne knows how many alien civilizations and human civilizations that weren't human enough (the Diasporex and the planetary population slaughtered by the Word Bearers and Custodes come to mind) and sent the Wolves to purge the Thousand Sons for offenses much less severe than trying to overthrow the Emperor and slaughtering countless numbers of their fellow troops. I can totally see those guys welcoming back a Traitor Primarch or his Legion as long as they said they were really sorry about that whole Isstvan thing.

 

Does anyone really think that Corax and the Raven Guard would fight alongside ANY of the Legions that sided with Horus after the Drop Site Massacre? Or that Guilliman would accept a repentant Lorgar after Calth? Sorry, people who want to see some of the really cool traitors "redeemed", there's a point where you cannot go home again and after Isstvan the Traitor Legions have skipped merrily past it. The best such a reptentant could hope for would be a quick death, with the executioner announcing "Your sins have been forgiven. But your crimes must still be punished."

 

Blood and ashes, the above was the fate of a REMEMBRANCER who was returned to the Imperium after a stint with the post Betrayal Sons of Horus, delivered by the hand of Rogal Dorn himself. And people think twofold-traitor Astartes would be welcomed back with open arms?

 

 

I'm not even going to start on my other pet peeve that this thread is poking at, the fact that going from the BL stuff about 50-60% of the traitor Legions were in fact Loyalists, which makes one wonder how the Heresy ever got off the ground to begin with. Warsmith Dantioch, Garro, Loken, Saul Tarvitz, Omegon, and many...many....MANY others. Although it does make me have more respect for the First Warmaster's skills, since he did so much while being outnumbered three to one.

 

Meanwhile on the "Loyalist Traitor" front we have one Raven Guard hanging out with the Night Lords and such members of the Dark Angels as the Lion were not needed for the Great Crusade and were better off being put out to pasture on Caliban. Blast and be-bother!

 

Sevatar's initiation to GKs doesn't mean he will be paraded on the streets. It'll be covert and all hush hush under Sigillite's supervision. Besides nobody said 30k Imperium is kinder and gentler. Just more desperate and open to comprimise.

[The Crimson Cartel]

Ah yes, the "kinder and gentler" 30K Imperium.

...

Does anyone really think that Corax and the Raven Guard would fight alongside ANY of the Legions that sided with Horus after the Drop Site Massacre?

...

Blood and ashes, the above was the fate of a REMEMBRANCER who was returned to the Imperium after a stint with the post Betrayal Sons of Horus, delivered by the hand of Rogal Dorn himself. And people think twofold-traitor Astartes would be welcomed back with open arms?

...

I'm not even going to start on my other pet peeve that this thread is poking at, the fact that going from the BL stuff about 50-60% of the traitor Legions were in fact Loyalists, which makes one wonder how the Heresy ever got off the ground to begin with. Warsmith Dantioch, Garro, Loken, Saul Tarvitz, Omegon, and many...many....MANY others. Although it does make me have more respect for the First Warmaster's skills, since he did so much while being outnumbered three to one.

Two things:

 

1. You're conflating the the various Loyalist characters with the entirety of their Legion. Is that valid, though? As early as as "Galaxy in Flames", we knew that the four traitor Legions needed to purge roughly a third of their warriors due to their loyalties to Terra. Almost every character you mentioned was used as a vehicle to show to the reader the tragedy of this massive betrayal.

 

2. Again, I think it's worth remembering that the basic premise of the Garro stories is that he's not taking "volunteers", nor is he running into candidates randomly. In each case thus far, he's been sent out by Malcador to find either a specific warrior or to go to a specific place and find a warrior. So again, if Sevatar is brought into the Grey Knights, I don't it's because the "kinder and gentler" Imperium will buy off on him being repentant and remorseful. It will probably have been because the second most powerful man (and, potentially, the second most powerful psyker) in the Imperium decided he wanted Sevatar specifically. Furthermore, should this actually happen, why should we assume that the identities of any of Garro's warriors will be common knowledge to the Legions or their Primarchs?

 

Meanwhile on the "Loyalist Traitor" front we have one Raven Guard hanging out with the Night Lords

 

I'd like to see more of this guy and his story. It's stated that the Night Lords captured him at Isstvan and Sevatar tortured him pretty hard, going so far as removing his tongue. Whether he was tortured to assure his loyalty or he changed allegiance after the torture isn't directly addressed.

 

I enjoyed his inclusion and it sets the precedence that the Night Lords accept members of other Legions.

What other story was the Raven included in?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

^

Regarding the Raven, this is his 1st appearance, but I believe Inquisitor Engel is referring the Night Lords penchant for accepting new members from various other Legions/Chapters and equipping them as official Night Lords, a la Variel the Flayer, formerly of the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs from ADB's Trilogy.

 

-CC

[Corsair]

Ah yes, the "kinder and gentler" 30K Imperium. The same one that wiped out Throne knows how many alien civilizations and human civilizations that weren't human enough (the Diasporex and the planetary population slaughtered by the Word Bearers and Custodes come to mind) and sent the Wolves to purge the Thousand Sons for offenses much less severe than trying to overthrow the Emperor and slaughtering countless numbers of their fellow troops. I can totally see those guys welcoming back a Traitor Primarch or his Legion as long as they said they were really sorry about that whole Isstvan thing.

 

Does anyone really think that Corax and the Raven Guard would fight alongside ANY of the Legions that sided with Horus after the Drop Site Massacre? Or that Guilliman would accept a repentant Lorgar after Calth? Sorry, people who want to see some of the really cool traitors "redeemed", there's a point where you cannot go home again and after Isstvan the Traitor Legions have skipped merrily past it. The best such a reptentant could hope for would be a quick death, with the executioner announcing "Your sins have been forgiven. But your crimes must still be punished."

 

Blood and ashes, the above was the fate of a REMEMBRANCER who was returned to the Imperium after a stint with the post Betrayal Sons of Horus, delivered by the hand of Rogal Dorn himself. And people think twofold-traitor Astartes would be welcomed back with open arms?

 

 

I'm not even going to start on my other pet peeve that this thread is poking at, the fact that going from the BL stuff about 50-60% of the traitor Legions were in fact Loyalists, which makes one wonder how the Heresy ever got off the ground to begin with. Warsmith Dantioch, Garro, Loken, Saul Tarvitz, Omegon, and many...many....MANY others. Although it does make me have more respect for the First Warmaster's skills, since he did so much while being outnumbered three to one.

 

Meanwhile on the "Loyalist Traitor" front we have one Raven Guard hanging out with the Night Lords and such members of the Dark Angels as the Lion were not needed for the Great Crusade and were better off being put out to pasture on Caliban. Blast and be-bother!

 

I take it you're a Wheel of Time fan?

 

Firstly, I did not mention gentleness or kindness regarding 30K Imperium. What I see in 30K compared to the 'modern day', however, is a greater sense of pragmatism.

 

More Legions have gone traitor than have remained loyal and the Imperium is being dragged into ruin. If the Night Lords Legion rocked up at Terra alongside Night Haunter (as an example) and said "sorry dad, we done messed up," could the Imperium afford NOT to take them back in those circumstances?

 

Keeping in mind that this is the same Imperium that apparently dispatched the Night Lords to censure Horus after they themselves had just been set up for punishment, because (unless this is eventually explicitly addressed in a different way), needs must, as it were.

 

Furthermore, the Thousand Sons were slaughtered by the Wolves due to a combination of Horus and their own anger at Magnus and his Legion; they were not ordered by the Imperium to wipe them out, and indeed that implies there would be an opportunity for redemption.

 

Finally, why would you think a Remembrancer would be held in the same esteem as a Space Marine or a Primarch? Why would you think the same about multiple thousands compared to an individual? One is a journalist/artist, the other represents potentially saving the galaxy.

 

The 40K Imperium are all about cutting off their nose to spite their face, but I have seen little evidence to suggest they would be so rigid in 30K, especially considering that so much was already being tolerated for the purposes of claiming the galaxy.

 

Pragmatism wins out above all; punishment can come later, after you have won.

[Kol Saresk]

I'm confused. Omegon is the twin that is driving the Alpha Legion towards helping out Chaos by severing its ties with the Cabal. How is he a Loyalist exactly?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I'm confused. Omegon is the twin that is driving the Alpha Legion towards helping out Chaos by severing its ties with the Cabal. How is he a Loyalist exactly?

The short story in the Primarchs, The Serpent Beneath, if read with the right frame of mind one could think Omegon was having second thoughts about being a traitor.

 

Also here is the quote that sums up my thoughts on this matter.

 

"A heretic may see the truth and seek redemption. He may be forgiven his past and be absolved in death. A Traitor can never be forgiven. A Traitor can never find peace in this world or the next. There is nothing as wretched or as hated in all the world as a Traitor."

 

Sevatar as a Grey Knight would spit in the face of this mentality. I do understand this is 30k but it was Iacton Qruze, who said Innocence Proves nothing. I get the feeling that a lot of the sayings we know in 40k, have their seeds in 30k. Like the Emperor Protects ect.

[Kol Saresk]

I read it as he was the reason why the Alpha Legion failed in its mission to ensure Horus' victory because he saw the power of Chaos and leapt for it while Alpharius realized that it must be destroyed and that if the cost was the Human species, then so be it. After all, Omegon is the one with a normal rank-and-file suit of Power Armor that is the same, but different.

[Wade Garrett]

Honestly, going by "Serpent Beneath" (where he dispatches operatives to cripple a project that is described as "securing the Warmaster's Imperium before he's even won it") and "Feat of Iron" (where the statute that represents the Alpha Primarchs is the Greek god Janus) I felt like Omegon was a better choice for Grandmaster Khyron than anyone else who has been put forward, him turning on not just his Legion, but his twin brother puts a heck of a twist on the "tell me why brothers betray brothers" quote on the grave. And the unmarked suit of Power Armor sounds very similar to what Qruze wears....

 

As for why I would accept him turning and not Sevatar, number one he already seems to be undermining Horus's efforts, unlike Sevatar, who was heading off to burn Terra to the ground before the Dark Angels fleet showed up, number two he's pretty much an unknown as far as the Imperium goes, and c'mon, infiltrating into the Grey Knights would be all in a day's work for the Alpha Primarch. Half the Alpha Primarch. Whatever.

[Phoebus]

... (where the statute that represents the Alpha Primarchs is the Greek god Janus) ...

Latin god. We don't have a Janus or an equivalent to him. :D

 

Incidentally, here is why "Janus" could work for someone other than Omegon as well: Janus is not a deity of "two faces" in the disguising sense; he has two faces because he looks to the future AND the past. One of his "areas of significance", it you will, was that he stood for new beginnings and transitions. A fitting title for the first Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

 

... and c'mon, infiltrating into the Grey Knights would be all in a day's work for the Alpha Primarch. Half the Alpha Primarch. Whatever.

Again, this ignores a fundamental premise: Malcador is (A) sending Garro to recruit specific individuals, and (B ) sending him to specific places to recruit individuals. The idea that Omegon would infiltrate said organization strikes me as unlikely. Alpha Legion efforts have been successful thus far primarily due to two factors:

1. Anonymity where their own Legion is concerned (outsiders don't know exactly who Alpharius is, never mind that there is an Omegon)

2. The wrong-footedness of those they infiltrate (the Raven Guard could not verify who had actually lived and died on Isstvan V prior to everyone being recovered in the rescue fleet, and there was a reasonable chance that neither the survivors nor the rescuers would be intimitely familiar with one another).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Omegon CAN'T be one of the eight. I don't think that idea is any less likely than Sevatar joining. I just don't think he will infiltrate them. Nor do I think Omegon is posing as Khyron.

 

And again, this is not because of "in-universe odds" and such. This is because, at the end of the day, I think the characteristics (few as they are) of Khyron as the author's wink-like hints and not just random descriptors. Thus, the logic behind the theory is:

1. A D-B created Sevatar the character.

2. A D-B wrote "The Emperor's Gift" and (to my knowledge) invented Khyron as one of the original eight Grand Masters.

3. Sevatar shares similar characteristics with Khyron, however few and loose they might be.

4. Omegon is not a character created by A D-B.

5. Omegon does not share those characteristics.

6. A D-B is hinting toward a connection between Sevatar and Khyron.

7. It remains to be seen if this theory will pan out, and - if it does pan out - how exactly it would come about.

8. Until this theory is proven true or proven to be false, though, applying 40k logic to a 30k situation or assuming premises other than how this order is actuallly being formed... isn't really either her or there.

 

Regarding the Raven, this is his 1st appearance, but I believe Inquisitor Engel is referring the Night Lords penchant for accepting new members from various other Legions/Chapters and equipping them as official Night Lords, a la Variel the Flayer, formerly of the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs from ADB's Trilogy.

 

-CC

Am I totally forgetting large parts of "Prince of Crows"? I don't remember anything so specific about Sevatar torturing the Raven. ;)

[The Crimson Cartel]

Am I totally forgetting large parts of "Prince of Crows"? I don't remember anything so specific about Sevatar torturing the Raven. :D

 

^

 

There are hints in the story that imply that our buddy Sev has created himself a very close ally in the Traitor Raven by using methods of torture to ensure his "loyalty." One such way was by cutting out his tongue. I got the impression that Sev trusts him implicitly, unlike many of his "true" Night Lord Brethren...

 

-CC

[Phoebus]

Hmmm...

 

I assumed that the Raven was one of those traitors among the Loyalist Legions, and that he proved himself either during Isstvan V (which would have been quite a spectacular way of doing so) or before it (as in, his detachment was assigned to a Traitor Legion and he was corrupted during that period). I also assumed that the tongue-cutting was symbolic on his part.

[b1soul]

You're conflating 40k Grey Knights with 30k Space Marines, b1soul. At this point, there are no Grey Knights as we know them, nor do their traditions, heraldry, institutions, etc., exist.

Semantics...call them early GK or proto-GK or whatever

What's your point?

 

In 40k, Nemesis Halberds are exceedingly common among Grey Knights - both in fluff and in Codex rules. In 30k, exactly how many Space Marines are shown going around with halberds, spears, or similar weapons?

The most honest answer would be "we don't know how common halberds are among the early GK". They could've been quite common at some point in Khyron's career and he may have used it

Therefore the whole halberd connection you're trying to draw is flimsy...

 

Don't worry, it's a moot point.

I'm glad you realise this

 

You're arguing against the odds that the author who wrote both "The Emperor's Gift" and "Prince of Crows" unconsciously/coincidentally threw out loose connections between these two characters (whom, again, no one else has written about) without any intent of hinting at something.

Uh...I'm arguing that, just as likely, ADB could've described a founding GK grandmaster as wielding a halberd, a weapon that's common among the GK at least in 40K (a fact the authour is well aware of) without any intention of hinting that Khyron is Sevatar, another character who happens to wield a halberd. Frankly, I think you're the one grasping for straws.

 

The most obvious flaw with the theory you're espousing (if you haven't realised it by now) is the issue of trust/loyalty.

Why would Malcador and the early GK order trust Sevatar, a former traitor who has killed loyalists and fought alongside Chaos-worshiping traitors? It goes against everything we know about how suspicious the Imperium is of possible traitors, a level of suspicion which arguably quite prudent after the outbreak of the Heresy.

[Phoebus]

Semantics...call them early GK or proto-GK or whatever

What's your point?

That they are not the same organization in the sense that matters where this topic is concerned.

 

The most honest answer would be "we don't know how common halberds are among the early GK". They could've been quite common at some point in Khyron's career and he may have used it

Therefore the whole halberd connection you're trying to draw is flimsy...

I think you're missing the larger point here.

 

We're talking about the first eight Grand Masters of the Grey Knights. One of the central assumptions about the Garro stories is that they are depicting the formation of the Grey Knights, and that the individuals we are seeing gathered will very well be those first eight Grand Masters.

 

"The Emperor's Gift" names one of those eight Grand Masters as Khyron. Going by the central assumption above mentioned above, Khyron will be one of the seven individuals Garro will recruit. The same author also wrote "Prince of Crows". Now, as I said earlier, you have two choices (simplified here, but more expanded on in earlier posts):

 

1. You can assume, like I do, that the description of Khyron is the author's nod to Sevatar.

2. You can assume that this is just another traitor who also uses an uncommon weapon and is also depicted in the posture of Sevatar; that the author meant no connection between the two, and that any perceived connection was, in fact, coincidence.

 

Uh...I'm arguing that, just as likely, ADB could've described a founding GK grandmaster as wielding a halberd, a weapon that's common among the GK at least in 40K (a fact the authour is well aware of) without any intention of hinting that Khyron is Sevatar, another character who happens to wield a halberd. Frankly, I think you're the one grasping for straws.

The problem with this premise is that the same author we're referring to has posted numerous times on this thread about how you can't assume that modern Grey Knights conventions apply to the original eight. So we go back to my previous point.

 

The most obvious flaw with the theory you're espousing (if you haven't realised it by now) is the issue of trust/loyalty.

Why would Malcador and the early GK order trust Sevatar, a former traitor who has killed loyalists and fought alongside Chaos-worshiping traitors? It goes against everything we know about how suspicious the Imperium is of possible traitors, a level of suspicion which arguably quite prudent after the outbreak of the Heresy.

Because it's not as simple as simple trust and loyalty. Malcador isn't asking for Rubio to be recruited based on trust alone, or sending Garro to Isstvan III on a mere hunch. He is an incredibly powerful psyker whose powers likely land him a supernatural perspective on who he should recuit and why. If Sevatar is recruited, it's probably not going to be based on people debating his trustworthiness, but because the right hand of the Emperor - the guy who had at least some premonition that the last loyal Captain of the Mournival was still alive - sensed/saw something about Jago Sevatarion.

 

I have no idea what that is at this point. My main reason for posting here isn't to convince anyone that this theory is fact. I'm doing so because (A) a lot of posters denounced this idea as preposterous for various reasons that I thought were neither here nor there in the greater scheme of things and (B) because I thought the OP was astute in catching - what I thought were - some pretty subtle hints. :)

[Perrin]

Prince of Crows takes place about a year and half after the start of the Heresy doesn't it? If Sevatar is Khyron, he could have been recruited at the end of the Heresy, just before Titan was sent into the warp. That gives 5 and a half years for things to happen and Sevatar's character to develop. Maybe Kurze betrayed him and hung him out to dry? That would be grounds for him to look for someone else to serve, and as he hates Chaos, why not Malcador? There's still a lot of Heresy time left for things to happen.

[Phoebus]

That may be the cause. Or maybe while Sevatar was a believer in Curze's means/methods/vision of compliance, his primarch's stated condemnation of his Legion was what opened his eyes. I thought the discussion they had in the Night Haunter's dreamscape was very powerful. I don't think it itself was what will cause Sevatar to turn (assuming it will, that is), but I think it will have been... a seed, if you will. :)

[Wade Garrett]

That may be the cause. Or maybe while Sevatar was a believer in Curze's means/methods/vision of compliance, his primarch's stated condemnation of his Legion was what opened his eyes. I thought the discussion they had in the Night Haunter's dreamscape was very powerful. I don't think it itself was what will cause Sevatar to turn (assuming it will, that is), but I think it will have been... a seed, if you will. :)

 

This would be the same conversation Sevatar had before he led his loyal troops into certain death aboard the Dark Angel's flag ship to be at his Primarch's side, right?

 

I'm re-reading the above, and I know it sounds condescending and obnoxious, but I'm starting to wonder if I read a different "Prince of Crows" than some of the other posters, because the impression that I took away from it was a Jago Sevatarion who would willingly follow Curze into Hell (and arguably has), a man whose reaction upon being taken captive by the Dark Angels is "Well, time to kill everything on this ship and hopefully re unite with the Primarch." And the conclusion I'm drawing is that either I or they have completely missed a lot of not just subtext but, you know, actual text.

[Corsair]

That may be the cause. Or maybe while Sevatar was a believer in Curze's means/methods/vision of compliance, his primarch's stated condemnation of his Legion was what opened his eyes. I thought the discussion they had in the Night Haunter's dreamscape was very powerful. I don't think it itself was what will cause Sevatar to turn (assuming it will, that is), but I think it will have been... a seed, if you will. :D

 

This would be the same conversation Sevatar had before he led his loyal troops into certain death aboard the Dark Angel's flag ship to be at his Primarch's side, right?

 

I'm re-reading the above, and I know it sounds condescending and obnoxious, but I'm starting to wonder if I read a different "Prince of Crows" than some of the other posters, because the impression that I took away from it was a Jago Sevatarion who would willingly follow Curze into Hell (and arguably has), a man whose reaction upon being taken captive by the Dark Angels is "Well, time to kill everything on this ship and hopefully re unite with the Primarch." And the conclusion I'm drawing is that either I or they have completely missed a lot of not just subtext but, you know, actual text.

 

You're right, that does sound condescending and obnoxious considering no one here is claiming that, 5 minutes after Prince of Crows ends, Sevatar will just go. "well, off I go to the Imperium then. Curze sucks, Malcador rules!"

 

Rather, it is possible that the events leading up to and including Prince of Crows, as well as the subsequent several years of Heresy during which his Legion and father will degenerate further, that it is possible he might be having some second thoughts about things, and that maybe the seeds were planted during these earlier conversations and circumstances for some bitterness in the future when everything falls apart.