=][= Need Your Feedback =][=

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Ok so the Chaos Codex is going to hit within days and that has raised the issue of Cultists and how they will be handled on the B&C.

 

First let me state that Cultist as they appear in the Codex will be allowed. Much in the way the old Lost and the Damned were allowed and later the various Inquisitorial human units currently are with the WH and GK codex books.

 

The issue for us -- and the mods are still hammering away at each over this -- is how far do we go with it.

 

You probably know from reading our earlier statement on Allies

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=255027

 

that one option being considered was focusing as an "armies of humanity" forum. This would basically mean any human related army being ok on the site. Marines, SoB, AdMech (used with IG/SM rules most likely), IG (and it's variations -- Tyrant's Legion, Vraks Renegades and so on).

 

Yes we would keep Daemons as we feel they are integral to the Chaos story.

 

So we would like to hear from you all on what you feel the Pros and Cons of such a decision may entail.

 

Please try and be a bit more descriptive than "it would be cool" or "it would suck".

 

We really do want your feedback on this issue to help us come to a decision that is best for the site in the long term.

[ilnar]

Personally, I see no difference between the new cultists and the lesser deamons from the old codex.

But then, I have no problem with allied forces showing up on the B&C

[Interrogator Stobz]

1./My first thought is hell yes, let all humanity in, good, bad and flimsy.

Expanding our community fully to allow codex IG meatsacks in is really becoming a matter of personal choice, and how they are handled is a big part of that issue. If they are kept in a separate area similar to the Loyalist/Chaoctic/Inq lines I think it would work nicely and would fit the 6th Ed theme. As mentioned below that will impact greatly on the shared parts of this website.

 

2./My second thought is no, keep this site PA centric but:

Allow as you say: cultists, daemons etc that are in the relevant codexes,

I would like to see the allies rules expanded to include pics and discussions as long as they are in context and accompanied by the PA army they are attached to. Also the PA army should be required to be the Primary detachment as you would expect.

 

3./My third thought is no not at all. You have created a great and unique website and it does not need changing.

 

I'm no IT wizard but does it impact on server use/size/costs etc.

 

EDIT: Clarity, aaannd ---My actual vote would be for #2. above, sort of the mid ground, take baby steps and see how it goes.

[Onisuzume]

Also makes me wonder what the army lists for the astartes legions from the Horus Heresy series contain.

The imperial army, at least wasn't divided yet at that time, but did the legions included non-marine troops as well or not?

I haven't been able to procure the book yet, so I'm fairly curious.

 

Still, what does this site mean to most of us?

Is it a site for power-armoured armies?

Or a site for marine armies?

 

In case of the former, the Adepta Sororitas would definitely apply, and possibly the Adeptus Mechanicus as well.

Still, does that mean we should include every list that contains even the faintest trace of power armour?

 

Taking the Vraksian renegades as an example, the list from IA5 (Defenders of Vraks) lists only one power-armoured entry for a maximum of only 30 power-armoured models. While the one from IA6 (Servants of Slaughter) manages a HQ choice, a special character, along with an elites choice and transport option (assuming a Rhino counts towards power armour). The Servants of Decay list from IA7, manages roughly the same as the Servants of Slaughter list, sans the special character.

 

The Tyrant's Legion, on the other hand, contains at least six power-armoured units (including (special) characters).

 

One could imagine that the new Chaos Codex could produce roughly similar army lists (dunno, haven't seen the codex yet). So using that as a guideline, would it be enough? Does an army need to be possible with only power-armoured units? Or would only half an army suffice? Or is a single model enough?

 

One of the obvious benefits of picking up a subforum for those lists, would be that there's definitely a place for them to be discussed.

Likewise, an obvious con of not doing so would potentially leave those lists in purgatory if no-one else decides to cover them.

 

Anyhow, its getting late (about half past midnight here), so maybe I'll come up with some (not so) brilliant reasonings later.

I'm no IT wizard but does it impact on server use/size/costs etc.

Not much more above regular topics, afaik, all it adds is a very minor database structural branch.

[Alys Dwr]

Personally, I see no difference between the new cultists and the lesser deamons from the old codex.

^this - to a point.

 

The thing with Chaos is that it isn't an exclusively power armoured affair. It existed long before the space marines and will likely exist for a long time after they are gone - or until the Necrons win. Whilst cultists are an integral part of the Chaos fluff and fighting style, it is not the primary selling point of the Chaos codex. It is one unit option, much in the same way as we loyalists get to bring scouts to the table.

 

This forum is a unique and wonderful place on the internet, bringing together folks who share a love of power armour. Yeah it's cool that we get to field non PA units every now and again but to open the doors and allow any human WH40K army to trapes these boards would detract from the purpose of the B&C IMO.

 

As far as i can see, expanding the B&C to allow all armies of humanity would only have one major change (and it would be MAJOR) and that is to allow the Imperial Guard into the B&C. It's only one extra army, what harm can it do? A fair amount of harm if you ask me. Yes you could limit them to their own little sub forums but i guess the thing i'm most concerned about is going into the PC&A section and being swamped with IG units when, in fact, i want to see power armour.

 

In short, it is my opinion, that the B&C should remain a place where one can only post about units expressly stated in a PA codex.

 

If i'm honest, this feels like a bit of a knee jerk reaction on my part. I'm sure if all human armies were allowed into the remit of the B&C i would be fine with it.

 

Al

[Harleqvin]

I believe having it left to units stated in a Codex that is PA oriented is the way to go as then we won't have an over flow of non-PA models and whatnot. I do understand the want for some change but going the route of allowing IG wholly would detract from the PA oriented vibe that the B&C is known for.

 

If it happens that you guys do allow an Armies of Humanity section I wouldn't leave the site or anything like that. Just saying that I believe that in the end, if it's allowed, then that would then allow the discussion of having a section for Xenos....

[Ordo Machinum]

The B&C is a PA forum. I agree it should stay as such.

 

If a PA codex includes units of humanity, then - and only then - should discussions of these units be allowed in this context.

 

I don't agree that "Allies" should be allowed a full treatment (threads, pics, lists, etc) concerning these separate armies by themselves. How these units support the PA force is where the bar should be set. Too many Xenos are tolerated as allies of convenience or desperate allies. These shouldn't be accepted in this forum. But, this is another issue.

 

Yet, again, as a part of a PA codex itself, it is a part of the PA army. No more, no less.

 

This is a war game, yes, and these are our rules to play. This is the B&C - the fortress of PA armies.

 

If anyone wants anything else, then they can choose another side. May the Emperor have mercy on their souls, because our bolters will not!!!

 

:lol:

[pueriexdeus]

I am of the Power Armor only camp as we have it now. Their are ample forums for all the rest to gather and discuss their missive. I would rather retain our unique exclusivity.

[Brother Nemiel]

My 2c:

 

Class certain codexes as PA codexes and allow their choices. And allow their allies in case the primary FOC is a PA classed codex.

If we only allow PA armies, that would mean no posting of Deathwing armylists (since no one is wearing PA) or Loganwing from Spacewolves for the same reason.

If it's not a PA codex... Ban it or move to another location.

 

In my view a clear case.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I agree with those above who say we should stay as a Power Armour forum. Cultists are part of a codex, sure, and as such should be allowed in. To be honest, I see very little reason think that they would not automatically be included in the Chaos sections of the forum as they are part of the codex, and therefore should be allowed. However, I think to expand it out further to other army lists just leaves it open to challenges of 'what about Xenos as well?'

 

The charm, and the culture of the BnC is, imo, the fact that it is for Power Armoured armies. We are here because we love our Chapters/Legions/Warbands/Order of Sisters/AdMech and we discuss them exclusively. We can escape from Xenos and hordes of humans. Sure, many of us have, or use, other armies, I play Eldar and Guard as well as my PA but I come here to talk PA. NOT Guard, Xenos or anything else.

 

However, this said, I think that it should be possible to discuss allied detachments where the PA is the Primary detachment in the list and you take something like Guard or Eldar as the Allied detachment. As long as it stays in the one thread that should be fine and a good recognition of the fact Allies exist and can be used.

[Artemid]

snip

 

I wholeheartedly agree with everything above me. Well put!

[Hidicul]

I'm new to the B&C, though I knew of your existance when I was playing xenos, but because the forum is for PA only I left it alone. When I switched to DA I joined as soon as I had my first models, why? This is the best place I have found to discuss our PA armies, everywhere else gets drowned in the xeno and guard talk. I think that the cultists are fine, and frankly am a little surprised to see this being debated, but no non-powere armour codex should be allowed. I do like that we can talk allies a little, but if we allow guard in I really think that it wouldn't be long before we were swamped by them as well as having xenos knocking at our door.

[Sviar]

Whilst cultists are an integral part of the Chaos fluff and fighting style, it is not the primary selling point of the Chaos codex. It is one unit option, much in the same way as we loyalists get to bring scouts to the table.

 

^

This.

 

B&C is a unique website for PA only. If we allow non PA we are losing our personality and become just another WH40K site. We at B&C are an exclusive PA only community and I think that we should continue on that road.

[The Shadow Guard]

I would be very strongly opposed to changing this forum fromanything but power armoured armies. That is the pirit of the board and its soul.... It is what makes the board tick.... do not toy with it! :)

 

SG

[Adeptus-Alaska]

well said SG. let's keep it pure.

[JeffJedi]

I'd like to see the Imperial Guard allowed a forum in the same section as the SoBs, Ad Mech and Grey Knights.

 

The reason is that I do love the B&C community so much and I would like to hear their views on the Imperial guard. I'd also like to see what our users can do with non power armored humans with painting and modeling.

 

Everything could be kept in one forum, painting, modeling, army lists, history and unit discussions.

 

Imperial Guard allies can lead to a lot of cool ideas like the Ultramar Defense Force and Chapter Serfs. Commissar Yarrick joining the Black Templars to hunt Ghazghkull Thraka. A Renegade Space Marine Chapter picking up a Rogue Psyker and such. An Imperial Guard Army with a small group of Chaos Space Marines allies can be a Fallen Angel army.

[sargon29]

I have to agree with Shadow Guard. Keep the board pure. I love the fact that B&C is the BEST place to discuss Power Armored armies. To allow IG would start taking B&C down the path of being "just another 40k forum".

[Master Gabriel Macleod]

I agree that B&C should remain a PA board. what make the board is that is a power armoured only board. Of we start allowing non power armoured armies this could lead us down road we may not want to travel down. I think the Cultist being in the Chaos Codex sure be allowed. Though they may not be PA and they part of New Chaos Codex. Just my 2 cent.

 

MGM

[Captain Semper]

Ok, from what I’m seeing I’ll probably be in the minority here - possibly a minority of one. I also expect to get some angry responses by other members but here’s what I believe to be the best course of action for B&C.

 

I never quite understood the “power armour exclusive” concept. To me it’s just an in-game mechanic, a rule. I don’t see how this rule that applies to a number or troop types across many different factions can ever be a common denominator for anything…

 

Space Marines have power armoured troops. They also have Terminator armoured troops and it’s not uncommon to see entire armies made exclusively of Terminators. They have scouts with scout armour and characters with artificer power armour or Runic armour. If we move to Chaos we also get Chaos armour for characters and of course now half-naked cultists on top to Terminators and other even scarier infantry types and, wait for it… daemons!

 

Thematically Space Marines are a unified faction despite their many flavors. Chaos Space Marines could also be grouped together, but Chaos is going back and forth with its themes from a peculiar horde of all kind of creatures that include cultists, daemons, mutants and Chaos Marines to a more clean-cut Chaos Marine exclusivity.

 

However B&C already incorporates factions that thematically are not really connected to Space Marines at all, such as a sub-forum on daemons (not as part of the Chaos Marines Codex but as part of their own Codex: Daemons), Sisters of Battle that apart from being equipped with Power Armour have nothing to do with Space Marines, the Mechanicum that I’m really struggling to find a connection and Grey Knights that are in a kind of grey area (pun intended) as they are of course Space Marines but their background and affiliation to the Inquisition sort of puts them thematically apart (and justly have their own Codex imo). And what about the Custodes? Although they do not have a sub-forum dedicated to them they are tolerated in discussions in the Horus Heresy forums (maybe the Amicus too – not sure) not to mention the PCA forums. And they are not even Marines genetically speaking nor do they have a Codex of their own or even an official model line to justify their presence… but thank goodness they are allowed in.

 

So I think that usage of power armour (as in a 3+ save) is not enough be a connecting feature for all those diverse armies and the perceived “purity” of B&C is already breached. And a good thing too.

 

One should keep in mind this is a large hobby but is still ONE hobby. People that play Guard (or Orks and Tau for that matter) are not in a different rule system – they are affected by new rules same as Marine players, they are equally scared/thrilled when their new Codex is coming out and enjoy a good chat on tactics the same as any other gamer – not to mention the modeling/painting. Many of us have other armies too and/or friends that play other armies and who are excluded from being part of this excellent community.

 

What we should be asking ourselves is: Why? What are we afraid of? That the IG will take over? Take over what? They will be just another sub-forum, governed by the same rules as any other (i.e. you’d have to keep IG related posts within the IG forum much like you must keep the DA talk in the DA forum). Are we afraid that the Space Marine feel may vanish? Well good luck with that considering how overwhelmingly popular Space Marines are in 40k in general and how many Codices are dedicated to them… No, 40k is predominantly about SMs and an all-inclusive 40k forum is bound to reflect that. So what is it that makes us allergic to change?

 

I think the “allies” rules could be a good excuse for B&C to re-think its purpose. I think it’s time to think big!

 

I’m suggesting B&C opens up. By that I mean to ALL 40k factions. Yes, make a Dark Eldar forum and Orks and Tyranids and Tau and the lot! Marine players will lose nothing while the community in general will gain from it. The PCA forum might also be divided in broad categories so people that just want to see Space Marines will still have the opportunity to do so in SM dedicated PCA sub-forum while those that are into Chimeras’ will have their own corner to do so unobstructed. All in all the B&C can become the definitive forum for 40k in the entire internet!

 

However, what makes B&C such a fantastic place to be is the quality of the people who run it. If this group can guarantee the same high quality to supervise the new sub-forums there is nothing in my mind that should limit the expansion of the forum to new themes. So it all boils down to resources. Even so, the important bit is for the decision to be taken – the implementation might take as long as it is required to achieve a quality result.

 

Well, this is my radical opinion. Tradionalists will probably dismiss it on emotional grounds – after all the B&C has flourished and gained recognition as the home of Space Marines, while Admins might dismiss it on the grounds of technicalities and taste… Changing the statement of purpose is never easy – it’s a big and brave step and not without risk. But the risk is as big as the fear of failure – if one has an unshakable faith to success the risk is minimal. Now is the time, with the “allies” rules in the main rule book and FW stepping up its output both in the IA line and the new HH line (that btw will include more than SMs as Alan Bligh explicitly said) to make a re-birth of B&C and expand its coverage to all 40k!

[Interrogator Stobz]

Well written Baptain!

I think your mind is too open to really belong to the DA, who are you really?

 

My first, gut feeling is similar, but the I remember...NO FORGIVENESS!!!

 

bobz

[Cactus]

The focus on space marines does give B&C its unique character but I don't think the sky will come crashing down if we open up an Imperial Guard sub-forum or similar. I'd be very happy to see a relaxing of the rules to allow more discussion of part-marine armies such as the Tyrant's Legion, and photos of non-marine allies if shown in context of the whole project/army.

 

Captain Semper makes a grand statement about being bold enough to take risks but I'm not convinced there's a good reason to take such a radical step as allowing all 40k discussion. Something unique would be lost if B&C became one of many generalist 40k forums.

 

PS. Onisuzume, the Legion army list is almost exclusively space marines. The exception being Fellblade super-heavy tank crews who are BS3 and have the option to upgrade to space marines. The book also includes a small number of Adeptus Mechanicus units from the Ordo Reductor that can be taken as allies, and some titans.

[Onisuzume]

PS. Onisuzume, the Legion army list is almost exclusively space marines. The exception being Fellblade super-heavy tank crews who are BS3 and have the option to upgrade to space marines. The book also includes a small number of Adeptus Mechanicus units from the Ordo Reductor that can be taken as allies, and some titans.

Right, thanks.

I think the “allies” rules could be a good excuse for B&C to re-think its purpose. I think it’s time to think big!

 

I’m suggesting B&C opens up. By that I mean to ALL 40k factions. Yes, make a Dark Eldar forum and Orks and Tyranids and Tau and the lot! Marine players will lose nothing while the community in general will gain from it. The PCA forum might also be divided in broad categories so people that just want to see Space Marines will still have the opportunity to do so in SM dedicated PCA sub-forum while those that are into Chimeras’ will have their own corner to do so unobstructed. All in all the B&C can become the definitive forum for 40k in the entire internet!

In which case we would do... what? Add a subforum for every allied army possible for the (chaos)marines?

Besides, a number of those armies already have their own dedicated fansites.

 

The bigger problem lies with the alternate army lists (primarily from ForgeWorld) which aren't fully one army/faction or another.

Again, the Vraksian Renegades lists and the Tyrant's Legion list.

 

Going by the links section, most xenos are well-covered with fansites already, except for necrons (no links submitted).

So imo, there would definitely be something to gain from adding a section of power-armour-related armies such as Vraksian Renegades, Tyrant's Legion, inquisition, in a way similar as that Chaos Daemons are supported due to their relation to chaos marines, leaving purely IG armies to their dedicated websites (Death Korps of Krieg, Elysian Drop Regiment, etc.).

 

A seperate case could be made for the Necrons, due to them having no dedicated site submitted to the links section, and them generally having a 3+ save. Although, as stated in posts above, it would be a rather poor binding factor.

 

As such, an "armies of humanity and/or chaos" would be more appropriate, I guess. Since I'm not sure if we could call Chaos Marines to be "armies of humanity". Alternately, we could call it "armies of (in)humanity", although that might suggest xenos. I'd also question any chapter willing to work with xenos unless there's no other way (as in, no battle brothers thingy that the smurfs codex seems to have with the tau for some weird reason). Allies of conveniance/desperation I could understand (if there's greater enemies to fight). Otherwise I'd simply give the finger to the xenos.

[Captain Semper]

PS. Onisuzume, the Legion army list is almost exclusively space marines. The exception being Fellblade super-heavy tank crews who are BS3 and have the option to upgrade to space marines. The book also includes a small number of Adeptus Mechanicus units from the Ordo Reductor that can be taken as allies, and some titans.

Right, thanks.

I think the “allies” rules could be a good excuse for B&C to re-think its purpose. I think it’s time to think big!

 

I’m suggesting B&C opens up. By that I mean to ALL 40k factions. Yes, make a Dark Eldar forum and Orks and Tyranids and Tau and the lot! Marine players will lose nothing while the community in general will gain from it. The PCA forum might also be divided in broad categories so people that just want to see Space Marines will still have the opportunity to do so in SM dedicated PCA sub-forum while those that are into Chimeras’ will have their own corner to do so unobstructed. All in all the B&C can become the definitive forum for 40k in the entire internet!

 

In which case we would do... what? Add a subforum for every allied army possible for the (chaos)marines?

 

The suggestion is a sub-forum for each Codex out there with added tolerence for factions that do not have a Codex but are an integral part of the background, such as Custodes. My suggestion is transformative for B&C no just adjusting the exisitng strucutre.

 

Besides, a number of those armies already have their own dedicated fansites.

 

Each forum has its own characteristics and I beleive B&C is one of the best forums out there (if not the best) not because of its main theme (because there are other places in the internet where one can discuss SMs) but because of how well it is run. If you apply the same principles and the strong B&C culture to support other factions of the 40k Universe it is conceivable that it'll become the place of preference for the whole range of the 40k community. If that fails we are where we started - no real harm done. Having sub-forums with low traffic is not something new, even to B&C...

 

I find this segregation of various 40k factions kind of artificial... It's one thing to not have the resources to expand it's another to not want to in principle. And now (with the introduction of allies by GW) it takes too much effort to put together new rules of conduct and subsequent policing to make sure we maintain the dubious purity of B&C. Exclusive clubs have inevitably some red lines to defend. That's what makes them exclusive. And sometimes the effort of holding the line becomes so intense that the defenders do not consider the possibility that defending the line causes more problems than letting it fall. In my view an all inclusive forum would solve all our problems at once provided it can be adequately supported by the B&C resources.

 

The Necrons and Vraks were excellent examples btw and I quite agree.

[Wraithwing]

One of the things that has always attracted me to the B&C is the high quality power armour content. I've primarily collected and played power armoured armies, and the B&C has suited my needs perfectly.

 

I wouldn't want to see that ethos change, as I would think it would be to the detriment of the community as a whole.

 

Cheers,

 

WW

[Burn_the_Heretic]

I think it's nice that armies have their own communities to belong to, feels like being a member of a club. You can always be members of different clubs, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

I personally came to this site because I thought "I want to go somewhere with a dedicated knowledge of Space Marines", much like I got to thewaaagh to learn about Orks. I wouldn't really have come here if it was "just another 40k forum" - I'd just get lost and go somewhere more specialised.

 

That being said I am confused about this Cultists issue - aren't they just a troop type? I didn't think you could have pure Cultist armies. If we excluded them we'd have to exclude terminators and scouts etc.