shabbadoo Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I don't see Cultists as being a factor at all. It is not a separate army list, and they are a unit within a "bolter & chainsword" power armored army. I see no problem with that at all, as they are basically like Grots are to an Ork army, or Ecclesiarchy units are to a Sisters of Battle army. Cultists are just a small facet of a much larger, "bolter & chainsword", power armored army- Chaos Space Marines. I don't see IG having much of place here among the power armored armies, but, as they are the only human army left out at this point, I don't much care if they get thrown in either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Power Armor only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I also think the trademark for B&C is being PA-only. So, basically any army that includes PA options, should have its space. What about Necrons + BA (for example)? Sure, in the BA subforum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Power Armor only Care to explain why you think that way, brother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I feel that letting human armies onto the board would be a good thing. The way I see it, most Space Marine armies would be allied or played alongside Imperial Guard, both in the fluff and on the tabletop. Also, Chaos as we know it wouldn't exist without their "devoted" cultists running around and drawing 8-point stars all over the place. My vote would be to allow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 For me chaos cultists are no problem since they are a part of Codex: Chaos Marines. Including IG is were I draw the line (mainly because of diluting the strong community sense we've got going) and heaven's forbid any xenos in these hallowed halls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Might I ask how it would dilute the "strong community sense"? I refute that, and posit it would reinvigorate B&C in certain areas. The main rules here would not change and, properly maintained and moderated, I fail to see how an influx of Guard-centric discussion, in the correct subforum, would dilute anything. It's not like we would turn into /tg/ overnight now, would we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Opinions may vary, but I feel that with SM focus we're all "rowing" to the same goal... we all love collecting, painting and building SM armies, and we're very speciallized at that. Including of IG or Xenos I feel some rivalry may arise... I've seen generalist forums and sometimes there's an anti-SM feeling we don't see here... so it may sound egoistical of me but I prefer this to be the safe haven of SM players. Like I said it's just my opinion, right or wrong. Also I have to remind people this thread isn't to discuss each others opinions but to give our input. It's the admin job to read and decide, so the rest of us don't need to play advocate or devil's advocate to try and sway their opinion one way or the other.. or even win an argument about B&C's future. Just a friendly reminder because I'm seeing this thread is very popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhr Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I think B&C should open sub-forum for every faction of the 40K. We could only gain by that, nothing would be lost. Uniqueness of this community is community itself not the armies we play; besides many of us have 40K armies aside from current B&C list (I play Orks aside from my beloved first Dark Angels)... PS: Chaos Cultists should not be a problem since they are Chaos Space Marines unit, same as Scouts are Space Marines unit... EDIT: Forgot to add, that inclusion of Allies rules in new edition of 40K makes it more sense for us to open a bit, because it will become so hard to discuss army lists ignoring the "auxilias"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I'm somewhat torn, however Armies of the Imperium does not sound so bad with how intertwined they an be (especially in the Great Crusade/Heresy era when Marines and IG, Admech, etc. worked so much closer with each other). Then obviously we have the Chaos side - so yea, "Armies of Humanity" (be they vile heretics or not). Therefore, I think I can agree with Stobz first point, though reluctantly: 1./My first thought is hell yes, let all humanity in, good, bad and flimsy.Expanding our community fully to allow codex IG meatsacks in is really becoming a matter of personal choice, and how they are handled is a big part of that issue. If they are kept in a separate area similar to the Loyalist/Chaoctic/Inq lines I think it would work nicely and would fit the 6th Ed theme. As mentioned below that will impact greatly on the shared parts of this website. On a tactical side, it would bring insights from our IG comrades. But I also want them to refer to us as "Lord" when they address us. :P I have one question however - is there any other site that is exclusively Humanity-related already? Would we still be unique in that? I am not for opening up to all factions however. Other forums cover that already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 The suggestion is a sub-forum for each Codex out there with added tolerence for factions that do not have a Codex but are an integral part of the background, such as Custodes. My suggestion is transformative for B&C no just adjusting the exisitng strucutre. And where would Imperial Armour lists stand then? and heaven's forbid any xenos in these hallowed halls. The Tau are "Battle Brothers" of the Codex SMurfs... Kinda odd, though, that the SMurfs would prefer to fight alongside the Tau rather than the Grey Knights of Sisters of Battle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypher 102 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I wouldn't mind seeing non-power armored allies on the forum as long as they have a power armored chaperone. I don't think we need threads of "here's my Imperial Guard army". However I don't mind someone putting up their Blood Angel/Necron bro-fist army. As long as there's an effort to make the primary army power armored and not just a Tau army with my token Ultramarine. Having said that, I'm sure a lot of people don't want opening up of the forums for fear that we end up like Warseer or some others. What really distinguishes this board from the others is not our limit to power armor but the quality of the moderators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 So after reading through the replies, I think I've switched sides at least 6 times. Man, you guys all have some pretty convincing arguments. But I believe I've finally figured out what I'd like to see B&C do. I'd like them to start out with an IG forum for a trial period. If the community deems it successful keep it open. If not, shut it down and go back to the current board rules about allies. While I like the idea of opening this board up to all factions of 40k I don't think it is a good idea. The board originally started as Power Armor only, and because of this it has become a tight knit community. I go to other forums sometimes and just the rudeness and hatred towards each other makes me come running back to here. While I don't post much and my group of friends tend to play 40k for a while, stop for a while then come back, I've always loved this forum. I'm game for opening up this awesome community to others, I just don't think it should be open up for everyone. And because I feel this is a good quote I'm going to use it "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded." Lets try the IG forum and leave it there. The Xenos have no place here and I barely tolerate the Heretics :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordo Machinum Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 A moment of laxity spawns a lifetime of heresy! To include everything dillutes the genepool. It takes away from a forum identity that has withstood ...well, a pretty good length of time, I would say. If we become like other forums, why stay here? What would be the point? My faith is strong in the moderators of this forum. B&C has walked a safe line with GW and their IP. Opening the gates to every Tau, Waagh, and Commissar may compromise this. There is a strong sense of community here that other army players would like to share. If other army forums don't provide that then they need to start building it within those boards. Not here. This place is ours. And I'm not saying "just PA" means to ban Deathwingy TDA and Scouts. As I said earlier, if it's within a primarily PA codex, then such units should be allowed within those contexts. Allies, within their context of supporting marines. On their own?From a IG or Xenos codex? No way. We're space marine players. We have enough schisms surrounding our fluffy models, we don't need any more. I guess you can figure my stance on open/closed borders now, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Arkley Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I joined mainly because it is dedicated to Power Armour... The people on here have a love for Power Armour and to open it up to others I think diminishes a damn good forum... I am sure there are other boards on the net to cater to deviants :) Let them stay there... I apologise if that makes me sound elitist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 This is a tough question... I joined this forum because it seemed more respectful, tolerant and helpful than the others and I can understand the arguments to open up an IG section but I do think it would ultimately diminish what is a unique forum., the B&C has a pretty clear identity which separates it from other 40k sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Wow, I'm quite surprised at some of the reactions so far. To call it orthodox would be best but I still don't get the link between IG discussion = the board will fall apart at the seams. Our forum is the great place that it is, not because of our army of choice* but because of our Mods, Admins and the rules they enforce. The fact that most of us follow the rules here reflect on them as much it does reflect on us. The idea that this place will be assailed by the uncouth and the immature is a failing on our part. Diminish? Really? There's plenty of players, that only play Guard, who are every bit the debater some of our members can be, who can reel off entire books of fluff by heart and who, if anything, will do the entire opposite to "diminishing" these hallowed halls. I say that to not include them would be a missed opportunity. It would open avenues of discussion previously closed to us, allow certain armies to be posted were before they could not and provide us with new members that could very well be a boon to us. * In fact I'd say if you guessed the maturity of someone based on only seeing what army they play and not the person, Space Marine players would not be top of the list. That's not to say I think marine players are immature, I'm just trying to throw some light on that kind of thinking. Don't judge people by what army they play. As for the inclusion of Xenos - I think it's best that we draw the line somewhere, including humans but not aliens is as good a line as any. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nym468 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I see the point being made by the members supporting a completely open forum, however I joined B&C for one simple reason. I don't collect any other armies, I have no intention of collecting anyone else, and in the off chance I do decide to actually start playing I know that this is the place to find answers for the thousands of questions a new player might have and to find inspiration for an old collector. If I wanted to read topics and discuss rule questions about non-power armor armies (no offense to SOB, daemons, etc, I think they belong.) I would go to a general 40K fan site. Other forums out there are all inclusive, why change something. Not to pull out the cliches but "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Allow cultists as they are part of a PA codex but not IG or Xenos. There are other places to go to find that information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 @olisredan; I didnt mean that IG players are the great unwashed and wasnt judging on the army, i just think the B and C is unquie as PA forum and to change that would be a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 @olisredan; I didnt mean that IG players are the great unwashed and wasnt judging on the army, i just think the B and C is unquie as PA forum and to change that would be a shame. Just to clarify, I wasn't aiming that (slightly wide-eyed) rant at you personally, it was just something that snowballed as I wrote more and more. On a less wide-eyed note, I humbly disagree. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I know and on reading my post back it sounded a little harsh. tbh I can see the reasons why its a great idea to include them (community boost, new discussions/viewpoints etc) and wouldn't be that frothing mouthed unhappy if they were added. edit:spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I've thought on this and I think that we should open it up a bit more. I don't think that the forum would be heavily diluted by having two more forum groups: Armies of the Imperium (IG/etc) and Filthy Xenos (Eldar/Tau/Etc.) I think that we should allow them but confine them. This forum is very Space Marine centric and should continue along those lines. Wow, I feel like I just stood up during a KKK meeting or some such for saying that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Well Heres how I see it we already have the IG in our midst we are just in denial about it. Between the existing non marine armies already on the board and the growing HH Legion army lists and you already have every tank and aircraft the IG use being used buy at least one of the other armies plus stormtroopers. Add in Allies and you have the whole codex. Why not give them a sub forum? In truth while this does expand the forum I believe it will actually lessen the work load of our staff because they will no longer have to toe that line between how much IG is to much IG. By the time the HH is done we will be and Armies of Humanity board any way, We might as well get out in front of it so that it can be handled in a manner that is both beneficial to the community here and so that it is administered with the quality and decorum we have come to both expect and enjoy. After all the Bolter and Chainsword aren't symbols of just SM, they are symbols of the Imperium. Its time we stop beating around the bush with the IG and to go ahead and fully embrace what is likely to become just as important a part of our SM armies as our Land Raiders and Razorbacks. It will enrich our forum and our discussions as well as expanding our horizons here in ways I don't think all of the Frater have fully considered. We already have Valkyries and Vendettas in the Inquisition armies. The mechanicum uses all the vehicles in the IG list in their armies, remember the Russ Executioner Regiments of the Ryzan Tech Guard? How many GK armies already have a Chimera for their Stormtroopers? Now we see IG artillery tanks in the basic Crusade Legion list. All in all; outside of HQs we already include all but what 4 or 5 units from the IG codex. All current situation is doing is increasing moderating load on the forum an creating a big gray area about what IG/human stuff is permissible and what is not. This atmosphere of confusion will only increase of the years to come as GW continues to blur the line between these armies with alternate lists. The simplest and best solution for this community is to finally and openly include the IG within our ranks. In doing so we will have already laid the ground work for all the other "cultists" unites to come as well as including the very nice FW armies that already have in their full grandeur. As for the Xenos; as much as I would personally like to see discussions of xenos armies held within beneficial confines of this forum I do not think that doing so is practical within the resource limits available at this time. There is also the practical consideration that many members of the Frater are as xenophobic ( at least on the board) as the Imperium they represent. It is clear that a considerable part of our community significantly dislike the atmosphere of xenos heavy forums and this colors there judgment on the contribution such armies would make to our community. Adding the Xenos armies at this time would likely cause internal conflict on this forum that I personally would not welcome. At this time I don't personally see the benefit significantly outweighing the cost. Therefore I can't in good faith support the addition of Xenos at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I think the site should remain Power Armor-focused. Actually, I'd kick those bums from the Inquisition and Sororitas out if it were up to me. So I'm definitely against expanding beyond power armor. However, I think people should be able to talk about Allies all they want to, as long as their parent list is one of the approved Power Armor armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belial212 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I agree with the liberally-minded here that expanding the forum would not be its downfall. It surprises me to hear such passionate exclusivity with respect to power armour. I certainly didn’t join the B&C because I was looking for nothing but PA. I joined it because it was well organized and the quality of posting and moderating was high. I believe many others joined for same reasons, and that the sentiments of PA protectionism developed afterwards. As others have already asked, what are we really afraid of? I play DA and have little interest in seeing Ultramarine army lists, discussion, models, etc. and in my entire tenure on this forum I don’t believe I’ve ever seen any, because I don’t browse the Ultramarine sub-forum. If you don’t want to see anything related to IG, don’t go into their forum. If I drop pics of my DW into the Space Wolf forum, the mods will kick them back where they belongs. Why wouldn’t the same protections apply for the Guard? If we’re not ready to welcome Xenos, while I feel that is a shame, and feels unnecessary, the will of the majority can prevail here. It’s not like we have a strong Xenos lobby group who feel like refugees in search of a forum and we’re turning them away; this debate is entirely internally generated. However with respect to the Guard, I feel they should definitely be included. They are close allies pursuing the same goal, arguably more philosophically compatible with SM than Grey Knights, who are much more insular and focused. And as has been suggested, there’s no reason we can’t expand the forum on a probationary basis and evaluate whether there is truly a detrimental impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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