SamaNagol Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Just wanted to start this thread now I have my copy of the 'dex to discuss with everyone all of the nasty combos we can expect to see in new Chaos armies, how they will match up to Blood Angels current forces and what we can do to deal with them. Balefire Flamers scare me at the moment. S6 AP3 Template.... on a flyer. With Soulfire too. Puts a real dampener on putting foot troops on objectives. Anything others are particularly wary of? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 tbh, of all the marine armies, The Blood Angels have the least to fear from a fire, with our own flyer carrying S8 AP1 missiles, it won't last long! The main worry I have is the off chance of a chaos player ending up with a silly number of accidental daemon princes in their army through sheer dumb luck lol. Their psychic powers are rather nice, and Ahriman being Mastery level 4 should be a bit of a worry IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3195481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I don't think that we should be scared of the Helldrake. It can be put down by our own flyer very easily I'd say. What can cause some troubles are the fiends. Their cannons are, as far as I've read the rules, very nasty and can put some S8 hurt on our troops or tanks while being quite resilient against anti armour fire. Chaos Lords can be quite nasty with the 'special' daemon weapons, handing out a lot of instand death or AP2 at initative. Their saves have improved to be on par with C:SM and they're the combat monsters they're supposed to be. It's not nice being beaten on your own ground, but these fellows do have the potential to do exactly that. The warp talons seem to be pretty nifty as well, gotta keep an (farseeing) eye on them... :lol: Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3195624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 The only AP2 Daemon Weapon is the Khorne one. And the character ones. Khârn doesn't have unwieldly on Gorechild either. But Mephiston eats him for tea. It seems that the tried and tested old Mephiston and StormRaven lists counter the Chaos toys.... and that is a shame. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3195706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Abaddon-enabled plasma Chosen spam. That scares me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3196471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 It seems that the tried and tested old Mephiston and StormRaven lists counter the Chaos toys.... and that is a shame. http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb447/Brindleysa/automotivator2.jpg just sayin' :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3196762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 He even beats Abaddon cleanly this time round. Which is nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3196783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 He even beats Abaddon cleanly this time round. Which is nice. Nah, thats actually a kick ass fight. Abby is the only one in the dex with EW. Abby will still win eventually, but only eventually. Hits on 4s, wounds on 5s. Or hits on 4s, wounds on 2's with many more attacks, but mephy gets 2+. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3196789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Don't forget Mephy re rolls all misses first round as well.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3196802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Don't forget Mephy re rolls all misses first round as well.... And still can't beat the 2+ TDA with his sword. You can wound as much as you want...if your opponent can save it on a 2+, you're gonna have a bad time. The only AP2 Daemon Weapon is the Khorne one. And the character ones. However, there's some nasty rules on the other daemon weapons besides the Khorne one. There's a mace that's basically instant death-ing a lot of stuff on a toughness test. Sure, with T4 we're kinda save, but still. In a ongoing close combat, 3 inches(the range of the ID bubble) can be quite a lot. That key is annoying as well. I still think that the fiends, the shooty ones rather the melee ones, are going to be brutal. They're basically walkers and have a lot of special rules and most importantly S8 autocannons. I think they have a 5++ invul and some other rules that make them quite resilient against long-ranged anti-armour weapons. Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3197397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Still AV12 though. This book has really limited mobility, which I think is where we will be able to outplay them. Obviously with Allies, combinations may appear but as it stands Chaos Marines will find it difficult to control the board space I believe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3197553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarrower Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Nah, thats actually a kick ass fight. Abby is the only one in the dex with EW. Abby will still win eventually, but only eventually. Hits on 4s, wounds on 5s. Or hits on 4s, wounds on 2's with many more attacks, but mephy gets 2+. No way. Mephiston gets housed this time around. Drach'nyen is AP2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3197618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodReavers Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 What worries me is that overall the chaos got a lot cheaper per model. Sure you can mark and icon and upgrade them to ludicrous points cost, but at their base they can put out more models than us that can be improved to be better than us at their specific role. There is also a lot of toys that could potentially remove whole squads at a time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3197820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Nah, thats actually a kick ass fight. Abby is the only one in the dex with EW. Abby will still win eventually, but only eventually. Hits on 4s, wounds on 5s. Or hits on 4s, wounds on 2's with many more attacks, but mephy gets 2+. No way. Mephiston gets housed this time around. Drach'nyen is AP2. but Drach'nyen is also only S5 (might even be S4?) so... wounding on 5s. Abby will have 4 attacks base, +1 for two specialist weapons, so 5 attacks and then between 6 and and 1 extra attack, so between 7 and 11(!!) attacks, but there's a 1 in 6 chance that he'll auto lose a wound with no saves allowed and become WS1. So if Abby rolls a 6 for attacks, yeah he'll likely hit with most of em (hitting on 4s, with rerolls due to being a Veteran of the Long War means he would hit with 5 or 6 then hit with another 3 with the rerolls). so 8 or 9 hits. meaning he'd do around 3 wounds in a round of combat - and that's assuming he rolled a 6 for the daemon weapon. If Abby rolled a 1, he will have 6 attacks that hit on 5s, but do get rerolls, meaning 2-3 hits, that then wound on 5s with no rerolls, meaning maybe 1 wound if he's lucky Mephy has 4 attacks of his own, +1 for two close combat weapons and we'd expect he'll manage to get the charge most of the time. so should also get 1 auto hit from Hammer of Wrath. he hits on 4s, getting rerolls 1st round either way, but there's a good chance he'll also get rerolls to wound due to transfixing gaze. so 6 attacks, 3 hit, then another 1 or 2 hit due to the rerolls. he then wounds on 3s, or 2s if he uses sanguine sword. and between unleash rage and transfixing gaze it's likely he'll get rerolls. so has 1 that wounds on 3s (the hammer of wrath) and 4 or 5 that wound on 2s (the other attacks). I'd be surprised if they didn't all wound. so 6 wounds back, abby should fail a whopping 1 save. so if Abby lucks out and gets a 6. he does 3 wounds if he sucked and got a 1, he might possibly do 1 wound to Meph but take a wound as well, Mephy should do 1 back a round. Abby has 4 wounds Mephy has 5. I reckon on a bad day Abby wound lose, but on a good day Mephy would win. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3197917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 The Burning Brand of Skalathrax is actually REALLLLLY nasty! Cheap Lord in Terminator armour DSing in with Terminator retinues with Hvy Flamer and combi weapons..... OUCH! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3197944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I think a lot of us traitors are still trying to figure out what and how we will be dangerous. :cuss Some consensus I'm seeing are Nurgley bikes, using lots of cultists(very cheap 30 man squads), using Huron Black Heart to infiltrate D3 infantry units, and havocs with flakk upgrades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3197952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
khurdur Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I play both BA and CSM, and I'm quite excited about the new 'dex. On the Abby vs Mephy argument, I think abby's more attacks and AP2 will win the fight over time, unless he rolls a one :/ Everything chaos has became cheaper. More troops, very tough chaos lords...that khorne daemon weapon will give him 6+ D6 attacks on the charge at I value and S6. DPs will be rarely seen due to their higher cost. Plague marines remain solid, khorne zerkers with veterans will be nasty with re-roll against BA and 4 attacks each. Noise marines also shoot very hard for a reasonable cost. Helldrakes-vs a stormraven the drakes are going down.... forgefiends-8 S8 shots-ouch oblits-can now take Mark of nurgle for T5 and immunity to ID unless hit by a S10 weapon. and also have an assault cannon, 6 or 9 of these fellow become very nasty and hard to kill. You won't see any defiler, they are now horribly expensive. Apart from a few exceptions, almost everything is playable. All the nasty things have veterans of the long war, giving them hatred, making them very nasty against us. So, the emperor protects, brethren ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3197959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 He even beats Abaddon cleanly this time round. Which is nice. Nah, thats actually a kick ass fight. Abby is the only one in the dex with EW. Abby will still win eventually, but only eventually. Hits on 4s, wounds on 5s. Or hits on 4s, wounds on 2's with many more attacks, but mephy gets 2+. He gets the most attacks when using the sword as it is a daemon weapon and AP2 overall this is chaos 4.5 it wont change anything and within say 6-12 months will probably be sitting with nids at the bottom of the pile. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3198112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 This codex is over-costed by about 10% Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3198205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Blayse Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Do Alpha Legion get any love in the book? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3198216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Do Alpha Legion get any love in the book? Not specifically, however both Ahriman and Huron are very good choices that allow D3 infantry units (and their dedicated transports) to infiltrate. Probably best taking Huron as an undivided Alpha legion lord. he has a random psychic power generated each turn +2S lightning claw Axe Heavy flamer the whole codex can be pretty much summed up like this, There is 1 daemon weapon available to generic characters (and its AP4), 2 if you play khorne and only 4 total in the codex (typhus and Abby) honestly you'll probably still see most chaos armies proxied to either SW's, BA's or GK's I know I'm thinking of bitting the bullet and doing it for my nurgle Blood angels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3198222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Blayse Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Well, until I get a chance to do some painting and assembly with my DV stuff, then I'll probably have Alpha Legion dressed in Ultramarine armor. Can Chosen still infiltrate? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3198244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 no Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3198275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Well, until I get a chance to do some painting and assembly with my DV stuff, then I'll probably have Alpha Legion dressed in Ultramarine armor. Can Chosen still infiltrate? No, BUT if you take Huron he auto includes the warlord trait to infiltrate D3 infantry units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3198276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Blayse Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Do you get to pick the ones after you know how many get to? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262344-fighting-the-eternal-enemy/#findComment-3198321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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