=][= Need Your Feedback =][=

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Ok so the Chaos Codex is going to hit within days and that has raised the issue of Cultists and how they will be handled on the B&C.

 

First let me state that Cultist as they appear in the Codex will be allowed. Much in the way the old Lost and the Damned were allowed and later the various Inquisitorial human units currently are with the WH and GK codex books.

 

The issue for us -- and the mods are still hammering away at each over this -- is how far do we go with it.

 

You probably know from reading our earlier statement on Allies

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=255027

 

that one option being considered was focusing as an "armies of humanity" forum. This would basically mean any human related army being ok on the site. Marines, SoB, AdMech (used with IG/SM rules most likely), IG (and it's variations -- Tyrant's Legion, Vraks Renegades and so on).

 

Yes we would keep Daemons as we feel they are integral to the Chaos story.

 

So we would like to hear from you all on what you feel the Pros and Cons of such a decision may entail.

 

Please try and be a bit more descriptive than "it would be cool" or "it would suck".

 

We really do want your feedback on this issue to help us come to a decision that is best for the site in the long term.

[Arez]

Why not have a sub forum like you do for the Astartes chapters and HH dedicated to the Human factions?

[Night Runner]

I like the concept of the Power Armour niche that we have on the B&C, it defines our forum and gives it character in a certain sense. So I rather not have non-PA troops on the PA forums. I could however see an "armies of humanity" forum catering for Planetary Defense Forces, cultists and the Tyrant's legion.

 

Where SW are concerned, the human troops in the Fang play an indispensible function in times of sieges as illustrated by the excellent novel 'Battle for the Fang'. So I guess an "armies of humanity" forum could work without diluting the B&C's image, while offering a better fleshing out of Space Marine Chapters and their human Chapter Serfs.

 

So I would say go ahead, but make sure the topics remain inside the "armies of humanity" forum and no where else.

[Khine]

Having the inclusion of the various other 'Humanity' based armies could change the way that the war gaming community sees how BnC operates. It could be that this decision undermines the authority of the Mods and the forum rules. It might be viewed that the forum isn't as structured and focussed as it has appeared in the past, that if people push hard enough that they can change the essence of these forums. People might start to take liberties with the mention of other 40k Universe factions or submission of imagery that pertains to those factions.

 

However, if it is structured properly it could do the exact opposite. The foundation and growth of the forums might begin to become something more than it use to be. For instance, placing the Imperial guard sub forum into the "+ VIVE IMPERIUM +" sub section or creating a sub section that allows people to discuss tactics/fluff/army lists of allied forces here on BnC. Also, as Arez pointed out with the Horus heresy statement there may be a shift towards interest in that sub game system. As it stands right now, there really isn't a place for those sorts of discussions to take place and it would help keep some order to the forums.

 

I'm undecided wither this could be good or bad for the forums.

[Wulfebane]

Where SW are concerned, the human troops in the Fang play an indispensible function in times of sieges as illustrated by the excellent novel 'Battle for the Fang'. So I guess an "armies of humanity" forum could work without diluting the B&C's image, while offering a better fleshing out of Space Marine Chapters and their human Chapter Serfs.

 

This would probably be my stance on it. Though personally, when I first stumbled onto B&C, it was to find a SW community. The fact that the mods restrict the forums to only PA armies was something I didn't even realize for months, and even still, don't really affect me. If I want to look at other armies, I just google them and venture to another forum.

 

My loyalty is and always has been with SWs, and the B&C forum filled the niche I was seeking better than others. If I had every army under the sun, then I probably wouldn't find B&C as my go-to forum hub, and I don't know about web marketing, but I would've thought the more traffic the better.

 

My final thought is that once I found out about the army restrictions, I felt the site name was a bit of a misnomer. If its to be called "bolter" and "chainsword" then I would think it'd include every army that can use those wargear items (SoB, IG, etc), and if not, I would've expected it to be called powerarmor.com or something to better bring the point across.

[Belfast]

I have to agree with Wulfebane above me about why I frequent this site. Primarily, it is because of the chapter specific forums for various SM chapters. Years ago I was a BT player and now I've started back up as a SW player. To me, the niche this site has has been worded as being focused on Power armor armies. With the inclusion of cultists for chaos and GW's pretty obvious choice to move from a less is more to a more is more mentality, it makes complete sense to me that the website should expand as well.

 

Now, I'm not saying that you need those silly Tau and Elder as well as Orc and 'Nid players not only diluting but also polluting the magnificence we currently enjoy. No! We keep it the same but with just a minor change.

 

The Bolter and Chainsword should definitely stay true to those factions who weild the afore mentioned weapons. However, it would be prudent for the site to also include those that serve (cultists), serve under (IG), or even those that are served by (Demons) the wielders of our most precious of weapons.

 

That is as long as those pesky IG players know their place and stay where they belong...

 

 

(can you tell I was watching the US presidential debate when I was typing this?)

[-Volsung-]

Sub-forums sound like a very clean idea, easy to organize, easy to moderate and ensure it goes smooth.

 

Maybe a DEPARTMENTO MUNITORUM subsection in the VIVE IMPERIUM, and a HERETICUS MEATSHIELDUS for cultists in the Chaos Subforum?

 

In the end, both technically... can HOLD a Bolter & Chainsword, right? That's justifiable. :)

[Wyrd-maker]

Sub-forums sound like a very clean idea, easy to organize, easy to moderate and ensure it goes smooth.

 

Maybe a DEPARTMENTO MUNITORUM subsection in the VIVE IMPERIUM, and a HERETICUS MEATSHIELDUS for cultists in the Chaos Subforum?

 

In the end, both technically... can HOLD a Bolter & Chainsword, right? That's justifiable. happy.gif

 

I would agree here with brother Volsung and Belfast. I don't believe discussing human troop options in a mainly power armor codex would be ANY issue IMO. Discussing armies such as IG or Daemons 'could' possibly take it a little too far as they ARE a separate codex, but in my opinion keeping it in a subforum would keep it 'tidy' so to speak. As long as everyone understands they are to be discussed in a support or ally function only would still keep it power armor biased but still allow a place to discuss these options because, lets face it, these are options whether we like it or not.

[Bearingtheword]

I agree with Wyrd-maker, Volsung, Belfast and Wulfebane above me.

 

The game as we have known it is changing. It is growing and expanding, and as such the inclusion of those human forces becomes something that should be done. No filthy Xenos of course, but groups like Chaos Cultists, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, Inquisition, and Astartes all fall under that umbrella and should be included within out community here. I don't think there will all of a sudden be this huge identity crisis created by including a few more in the B&C family.

 

My two crowns on the question....

 

~BtW

 

Edit: I think Raven Angel below put it quite succinctly. I also have trouble understanding why some have such an issue with expanding the forums to include all of humanity. We are already almost fully inclusive and I think there is much to be learned and shared that can be applied to all aspects of the game. Xenos I can understand as this IS "The Bolter and the Chainsword" and as has been pointed out those are iconic to all of humanity. I say get out in front of it, embrace it and make us one big happy humanity encompassing family.

 

~BtW

[Karack Blackstone]

My two cents:

 

Pros, some Cons:

- Larger army base covered by the B&C

- More Codex selection

- The game is changing with Allies, and board members will need a place to discuss and comprehend Allied units

- As a pretty solid PA board previously, this change may show more inclusion to other forces

- I came here personally to discuss SW. The issue being raised is the fact that without a dedicated and safely named IG/Cultist subsection, there's no clear way to bring things forward into 6th

- Including the IG/Cultist unit sections would then beg the question of what subsubforum sections they will need.

- New Mods and Admins will be needed to deal with issues pertaining to the dedicated subforum section(s), however that needs to be handled

- Seeing new board members should prove interesting long term.

 

My personal vote is to go for the Humanity only approach, should it prove viable overall. There's a real need for Allies to be discussed, and limiting the site to only PA units seems to mean the site must grow and improve itself.

[Raven Angel]

Well Heres how I see it we already have the IG in our midst we are just in denial about it. Between the existing non marine armies already on the board and the growing HH Legion army lists and you already have every tank and aircraft the IG use being used buy at least one of the other armies plus stormtroopers. Add in Allies and you have the whole codex. Why not give them a sub forum? In truth while this does expand the forum I believe it will actually lessen the work load of our staff because they will no longer have to toe that line between how much IG is to much IG. By the time the HH is done we will be and Armies of Humanity board any way, We might as well get out in front of it so that it can be handled in a manner that is both beneficial to the community here and so that it is administered with the quality and decorum we have come to both expect and enjoy. After all the Bolter and Chainsword aren't symbols of just SM, they are symbols of the Imperium. Its time we stop beating around the bush with the IG and to go ahead and fully embrace what is likely to become just as important a part of our SM armies as our Land Raiders and Razorbacks. It will enrich our forum and our discussions as well as expanding our horizons here in ways I don't think all of the Frater have fully considered. We already have Valkyries and Vendettas in the Inquisition armies. The mechanicum uses all the vehicles in the IG list in their armies, remember the Russ Executioner Regiments of the Ryzan Tech Guard? How many GK armies already have a Chimera for their Stormtroopers? Now we see IG artillery tanks in the basic Crusade Legion list. All in all; outside of HQs we already include all but what 4 or 5 units from the IG codex. All current situation is doing is increasing moderating load on the forum an creating a big gray area about what IG/human stuff is permissible and what is not. This atmosphere of confusion will only increase of the years to come as GW continues to blur the line between these armies with alternate lists. The simplest and best solution for this community is to finally and openly include the IG within our ranks. In doing so we will have already laid the ground work for all the other "cultists" unites to come as well as including the very nice FW armies that already have in their full grandeur.

 

As for the Xenos; as much as I would personally like to see discussions of xenos armies held within beneficial confines of this forum I do not think that doing so is practical within the resource limits available at this time. There is also the practical consideration that many members of the Frater are as xenophobic ( at least on the board) as the Imperium they represent. It is clear that a considerable part of our community significantly dislike the atmosphere of xenos heavy forums and this colors there judgment on the contribution such armies would make to our community. Adding the Xenos armies at this time would likely cause internal conflict on this forum that I personally would not welcome. At this time I don't personally see the benefit significantly outweighing the cost. Therefore I can't in good faith support the addition of Xenos at this time.

[Grimtooth]

As the game changes so must the board, however that does not mean that we throw all things to the wind.

 

Cultist lists should get a dedicated section in the Chaos forums encompassing all types of marks (Nurgle cultists, Khorne cultists, etc, etc).

 

IG as allies should be designated a subforum in each PA forum, however not open the B&C to a full on Humanity of 40k discussion.

 

The B&C can remain a full PA discussion board despite the changes in the game. The inclusion of IG/Cultists are not a discussion of how they are as armies unto themselves, but as elements of a PA army.

[Growler67]

There was a time when mention of any sizable faction without PA, with the exception of being part of a battle report or descriptive element, would draw the swift ire of the staff and an Inquisitional purge would quickly ensue.

 

Be that as it may, if the board wishes to remain exclusively PA orentated, then so be it. However, as the game "mutates" and with the reintroduction of Allies, perhaps the board needs to decide what it wants to be.

 

If non-PA Factions are going to be allowed, then they should have appropriate sub-sections and/or be incorporated into the proper affiliation. For example, within the Chaos Section, a new sub-section can be included for "Minions" or whatever. No need to provide seperate sub-sections within each Aspect of Chaos, but permit discussions on incorporating Daemons and Minions within. Army Lists should ALL go into the current section solely for such to avoid cluttering up every other section and sub-section with that kind of stuff.

 

Another option is a complete section for ALL non-PA stuff and then subdivide it as desired toprovide places for appropriate discussions. "Non-PA Factions" but then you would have to decide if you want to include Xenos as well at that point or limit it to PA affiliated factions like Astartes and Chaos. Relating a tale or battle report about bugs is one thing, a whole section for them would be entirely another.

 

I would personally like this place to remain PA-centric. Conceding that the game is changing...or mutating....then incorporating appropriate subsections to existing Sections would be fine. Having one "catch all" Section for non-PA factions might be easier to moderate, then sub-divide it into sub-sections as deemed appropriate would be a fine alternative as well.

 

I just don't want to see the flood gates opened as it would blur the lines between this forum and ALL the rest. HereseyOnline, BoLS and so on have their niche.....I say this place should retain its as well hile evolving with the game.

[Beef]

Where does it stop, whilst I agree having an armies of humanity would bring more users to the board I also agree that this would show that if enough people push hard enough the forums will change over time (not always for the better) eventually if pushed hard enough we can have subforums for tau, nids and all the other races (sorry if i sound like a 40K racist).

 

then we could have more sub forums for warhammer fantasy games. This could lead onto more subforums for other games like flames of war, Ragnarok, and teh ones with teh machines. So in essence we would then just have another Dakka Dakka forum with similarly obnoxious members all looking down at marine players.

 

No thanks.

[Cate]

I agree with Brother Beef on this one. I think that including IG into the B&C might open Pandora's box, if B&C allows IG in what will happen next? If you have read the Amicus thread with the same name the confusion has already started. Do we really need loads of more members? We are already 60k plus and once we had more than 5k users online at the same time. I would like to spare our hard working mods the workload with an increase of more members. What would an increase of members cost? The site would probably need to get more bandwidth and more memory space for the increase of threads, pictures and so on, I have no clue if an increase of users and threads does that, I am a teacher not a technician.

 

I have been a member of B&C since -03, not a very active writer I know, and have always thought this a friendly and mature place, and I always liked the PA exclusivity. If we open the box and let IG be part of the PA family, hey they have one unit that almost wears Power armour, we could see an increase of whine and nagging of letting in other allies.

 

I was kind of confused with the Chaos daemon sub forum, but I saw the need for it as daemons once was part of the Chaos codex. I am not that sure any more, but it is there now and should not be taken away. Now Chaos got cultists, and as long as the dudes and dudettes in the Chaos forum discuss cultists as cultist and not traitor guard with IG lists, it should be ok, as long as GW lets them be in the chaos codex, with the next codex they might be out in the cold again.

 

 

/C

[Russ Brother 92]

I am completely on the fence with this - whilst I can see many Pros/Cons it's hard to 'choose a side'...

 

Pros;

- more choices of discussion where allies are concerned (only 'human' allies and only in that context not full-blown IG armies).

- the option for sub-forums and allowing people more freedom in modelling and imagery.

- more traffic to the site and members (the possible bounties this brings with it...).

 

Cons;

- blurring the lines between a 'Power Armoured Forum' and simply a 'Humanity/Armies of Man Forum'.

- the extra workload incurred by mass expansion and a much larger member base.

- personal prefferance - would you want people joining just for the sub-forum about how to use cultists or would you want them to join because of PA but stay because they can give views on it...

- again about how to control that blurring between lines - are we THE power armour forum or are we an Armies of Humanity style forum...?

 

Just a few points and purely my own opinion.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Where does it stop, whilst I agree having an armies of humanity would bring more users to the board I also agree that this would show that if enough people push hard enough the forums will change over time (not always for the better) eventually if pushed hard enough we can have subforums for tau, nids and all the other races (sorry if i sound like a 40K racist).

 

then we could have more sub forums for warhammer fantasy games. This could lead onto more subforums for other games like flames of war, Ragnarok, and teh ones with teh machines. So in essence we would then just have another Dakka Dakka forum with similarly obnoxious members all looking down at marine players.

 

No thanks.

 

 

I'll point out that no amount of QQing over Xenos will ever get them on this board. The IG are a different bag of tricks though. We are never going to be Dakka or Warseer as a "cover all of 40k/WHFB" type site.

 

We have GK and SoB codex which allow certain IG units. The Chaos Dex now has Cultists. We are constantly being asked about Tyrant's Legion.

 

The issue for the mods is holding fast to the Power Armor focus, in which case where do we draw the line on Guard stuff that appears as part of the GK or SoB lists or even for Guard stuff used as cultists vs. someone posting up their guard unit and claiming it is part of those Codex armies even though in all likelyhood it isn't.

 

While we can't dictate to people how to paint their army (your IG have to be in black-red and have an =][= symbol on them for example) vs. simply dictating what books/army lists we allow.

 

Folks seem to be confused about the Cultists issue. Cultists are in no matter what else happens here. They are in the Chaos Dex so they are gonna be allowed. They will not get a sub forum as they aren't a separate army, they are a unit within an army so you can simply discuss them in the various power forums as your army requires. Even though this means a person doing the bare minimums of a Chaos Army could have a PA lord and just tons of Cultists as troops.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

personally, i dont see the harm in having the IG get a subforum here on B&C.

 

the whole "this is a marine sanctuary" sounds more like the cries of spoiled children not wanting to share their clubhouse at best, and downright snobbery at its worst.

 

if allowing a guard subforum would really ruin B&C's charm, then there is something wrong already.

 

WLK

[frostclaw222]

This becomes a slippery slope. Heck, it already has become one, though the effects have yet to be felt. Technically, we could be talking about Tau allies hither and yon here on the B&C right now.

 

I like the board as it is. Cultists, as Kurgan said, are part of the Chaos Marines dex. Ergo, they're a neat little box with a neat little check in it. Done and done.

 

The larger question of "armies of humanity" gets more complicated. Sure, an IG subforum at this point seems to fix it, but if/when there's an AdMech list, that means another forum (which is one I'd love to see). And then, sooner or later, there might be an "Allies Expansion" that allows for humans under Tau rulership (think the term is g'ueva, but my knowledge of xenos tongues usually is limited to death gurgles and last prayers), and then, even while they don't serve the Imperium, they are human.

 

I think a definitive line needs to be drawn and kept to. I understand the desire to allow all of us the flexibility to discuss our allied forces and how they work with the power armor forces, and I think it's great the mods have decided to do so. But this is what we call in my line of work "scope creep," and you're only supposed to provide what you said you were going to in the scope of the contract. Anything more, and you're watering down your effort at providing what you're obliged to provide, and giving away the store for free, while doing nothing as well as you could with a more focused effort.

 

I'd love to eventually start a dropchute/air mobile guard force to backstop my Wolves with a wing of Vendettas and Valkyries and Vultures. But the idea of talking about that army on the B&C just feels wrong to me at first blush.

 

We've got GK and Sisters because they're also power armored. For years, power armor has been the litmus for topicality. Sure, allies muddles that a bit, but so long as the majority FOC is power armor, it should have a home here. More than that, and I worry what might result. And it's a heckuva lot easier to not go forward as it is to roll something back once it's been done, in my experience.

[Olis]

Might I point out the AdMech already have a subforum, brother? :)

[Raven Angel]

Might I point out the AdMech already have a subforum, brother? :D

 

And There is already the beginnings of and Ad Mech list in the 1st HH book for use as Allies for the Legions.

[Growler67]

Cultists can have their own sub-section within the Chaos Section of the Forum, there need not be one for each aspect. Singular and title it "Cultists". I propose that within the Inquisitorial section a similar section be allowed within titled "Squishy's" for inclusion of IG elements with SPECIFIC rules governing the sub-section; discussions be limited to units, vehicles etc as it pertains to them being an 'ALLIES' choice - once there is the taint of them being a majority element in a given list (or whatever) rather than an allied faction it would need to be purged.

 

As far as overhead and administration of the forum, it would only grow to the addition of 2 sub-sections of the forum. Scrutinization would be easier to manage than if things were scattered about hither and yon within the Forum.

[frostclaw222]

Growler's got a good idea: limit the infestation. ;)

 

Seriously, though, if it's a small collection of subforums with a few exceptions to the main rules, then it's contained. In the event that another such subforum needs to come about later on, it can, and the greater B&C will not be adversely impacted.

 

I can't believe I forgot the AdMech forum. There goes my love from Forge World.....

[WG Vrox]

I would much rather see B&C sponsor a separate website for humanity's armies, just cut and past the structure of B&C so its a seamless integration and easily navigated by B&Cs main user groups. This way you can expand the new website per the needs of the new user base instead of patching in a bunch of sub forums. This would not only allow B&C to expand, but also allow for a proven model to take root and grow anew.

 

I really like the idea of the armies of humanity getting their own website, but I strongly feel that B&C should remain pure Power Armor types only. All you have to do is say Bolter and Chainsword and then you know its the right thing to do.

 

Vrox

[Wulfebane]

Decent idea, but I think this would instill even more outcries for a xenos site than just a subforum. They'd be eager for a B&C community of their very own without ties to the PA-centric boards.