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[Kizzdougs]

My vote would be to keep the board as it is. Personally I think the introduction of IG would take away from what makes this board so special. Its specialisation. Using IG minis as cultists or henchmen sounds like fun and I'd have no problem with that.

 

One point that makes me think otherwise is that the inclusion of IG might encourage Heathens to do some more work on his awesome Tyrant's Legion :cuss

 

Either way, the B&C is a great community and the inclusion of IG wouldn't turn me away.

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

No there are more than enough imperial/all forces boards for anyone that wants to show off their guard. If you want people to look post a link in your signature or on a thread

 

Eg

 

Here's a bunch of my astral claws if you want to check out the guard contingent click here

 

I thought daemons were a bit sketchy an inclusion to be honest and always felt they should be turfed off. Maybe have a rule they can be talked about in chaos ascendant rather than their own subforum but I understand the place they hold in chaos which is in NO WAY similar to that of the guard and marines. If the b&c keeps buckling to a persistent glamour for more inclusions what differentiates it from dakka or whineseer/etc?

[JeffJedi]

Our users and our sense of brotherhood. Our friendly rivalries with each Chapter/Legion. The way that each forum put up an amazing showing for the E Tenebrae Lux.

 

These things would not go away just because we add in a small forum allowing IG to be talked about.

 

Today if I put up a thread that said:

 

"Hey look at my Space Marine Chapter ABC, aren't they a cool paint sceme? Some times they are joined by IG force XYZ, who wear red shoulder pads to show their close ties with Chapter ABC."

 

Some users would say they looked cool. But some users would post "In before thread is closed" over and over.

 

Is that really needed? Both the Fluff and the rules now allow allied IG. Some cool things could come of allowing them here.

[Payce]

I would vote to simply treat the cultists the same way we treat rhinos or scouts. They don't wear power armor, but they are part of our codex, which is based on the (chaos) space marine. I wouldn't make anything seperate or new for the cultists, just blanket them in the chaos forum and make it easy.

 

Agree 100% with this.

 

Yes, there may be the occasional "mass cultists and spawn"-armies with a minimum of power armoured Chaos chumps based on the new CSM-dex, but these will hardly be any different from any Arbites or Dark Mechanicus-armies that are already floating around here and there. If a PC&A-thread with almost exclusively Cultists pop up, so be it, it's a unit entry for a mainly power armoued army, and hopefully an inspiration to those of us also fielding cultists (but can't afford multiple Dark Vengeance sets). Any "human army" based on the CSM codex will likewise have at least one Chaos Marine HQ, and likely some vehicles as well, making it a B&C-legal topic.

 

I'd say just leave cultists as you would any other, non-PA unit in any other relevant new codex.

[Excessus]

After the new codex is released I suspect cultists will pop up in the PC&A part quite a bit, since most people have marines but have no standing army of cultists. That's just how it is though, and I agree with the people that has already said to treat them like any other codex unit...

 

 

...but I don't think this forum would benefit from adding IG to it's list of armies...

[TheDarkApostle]

People seem to mis-interpret the whole "Power-armored armies only" thing.

 

Power-armored armies only means

 

Codex: Space Marines + and variants (BA, DA, SW, BT)

Codex: Grey Knights + Inquisition

Codex: Chaos Space Marines

 

IN THEIR ENTIRELY.

 

This isn't a discussion about whether cultists or scouts should be allowed because they don't technically have power armor or not. They are in a power-armored Codex, thus they are in.

 

The scope of this discussion is whether we should keep Daemons as one of the allowed armies, and whether we should expand our scope to allow the Imperial Guard as well.

 

Allow my to quote myself from the AA thread;

 

The "Codex: Daemons allowed" versus "Codex: Imperial Guard not allowed" in my point of view stemmed from a very, very hard situation.

 

Almost all of the units in Codex: Daemons could be fielded in the Chaos Space Marines codex with little to no trouble.

• * Greater Daemons? Claim it's a Generic Greater Daemon and post away!
   
  Daemon Princes? It's a HQ Daemon Prince and post away!
   
  Heralds/Bloodletters/Horrors/Plague Bearers/Nurglings/Daemonettes? Generic Lesser Daemons and post away!
   
  Soul Grinder? Defiler and post away!
   
  Plague Beasts of Nurgle? Chaos Spawns and post away!
  

It meant that even if we said Codex: Daemons was a no go, a vast majority of it could still be posted, obviously very thinly veil, but still. Unlike the Imperial Guard that had very, very few units that could easily be slotted as something else in any of the other Codex's. At the time it was just far easiler to allow Codex: Daemons in it's entirely because most of it was already postable under Codex: Chaos Space Marines, not just because of the historical significance. I can still see a large portion of Codex: Daemons postable under the new Chaos Space Marines Codex.

• Greater Daemons / Daemon Princes, HQ Daemon Princes, especially now that the new Daemon Princes don't come armored by standard.
   
  The Soul Grinder is still postable as a Defiler, and quite possibly as either a Maulerfiend or a Forgefiend as well.
   
  Plague Beasts of Nurgle and possibly some of the other beasts can be substituted for Chaos Spawns (I know I'm itching for a few of the Beasts of Nurgle as proper Spawns at least).
  

Which only leaves the basic foot soldiers of the Gods as the only ones to not easily be posted anymore should we remove Codex: Daemons from what is allowed.

 

Hence I think keeping the Codex: Daemons as part of the allowed armies is justifiable. I'm not sold on allowing the IG just because Daemons are, since that's a pretty bad argument.

 

TDA

 

And my continued reasoning:

 

But the point still stands. A vast majority of the Codex: Daemons could be fielded as other units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

 

Now I might be wrong, but I don't see a vast majority of the Codex: Imperial Guard as being able to be fielded as other units under any of the Codexes we currently endorse. A unit here and there, sure, but not a vast majority at the same time.

That said: Can an army have a majority of it's units fielded under a single other Codex we already allow? Then sure, I see no point in us expanding to allow that Codex as well.

 

It can't be fielded under a single other Codex? And it's not a power armored codex? Then I don't see it as part of us.

 

This leaves the Daemons in a bit of a tricky situation. As I've outlined in the beginning of the first post quoted, many of the specialized choices can still be fielded under the new Codex: Chaos Space Marines without trouble. But now the core army bits, the standard Chaos Daemon Packs are out because there are no longer any Generic Lesser Daemons unlike in the 4'th edition Chaos Marine Codex.

 

Personally I feel we can keep the Daemons for now, mostly because it would be really douchey to not welcome our Chaos Daemons players anymore, but also partly from the historic and lore standpoint.

 

The IG I'm very, very iffy about. As said, they aren't power-armored, they never have been unlike the Daemons who only recently because a Codex of their own, but the IG are still allowed for discussion in the Tactica ETC already today and have been for quite a while.

 

TDA

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

Our users and our sense of brotherhood. Our friendly rivalries with each Chapter/Legion. The way that each forum put up an amazing showing for the E Tenebrae Lux.

 

Thats nice mate but once we take off the rose tinted glasses and turn down the good vibrations where does that leave B&C in a marketing position?

 

Sure what you have noted is one of the nice things about the B&C but it hardly unique as many boards are beginning to tighten their belt and some of the smaller forums are beginning to open up to gain new members. The B&C is very unique in that it has levels of members matching Dakka and Whineseer but it has managed to keep the small board focus on marines. The board has flourished by being a single platform and it still appears to be growing at the same speed as the others so why the need to open it up?

 

Some users would say they looked cool. But some users would post "In before thread is closed" over and over.

 

Is that really needed? Both the Fluff and the rules now allow allied IG. Some cool things could come of allowing them here.

 

People have constantly tried to post up other models but the mods seem to have it under control, why is it all of a sudden going to become a flood of IG threads when everyone knows this is a marine board? I know someone once tried to post up eldar, should we allow them in because there is fluff that says space wolf and eldar ally and they look cool?

 

Im sure some people will have some cool models and i know i number of members, myself included, have guard but there are more sites I can post on without worry. If i want my marine fix I know I can come here and the amicus wont be filled with other race questions or having to filter through tons of painting threads to get the marine stuff. Guard arent a small market to let in like chaos daemons are.

 

 

I realise I am coming on a little hard but this is something I really dont want to see happen. I have no problem with you personally Jeff but as the one who addressed my comments unfortunately you are the one to cop it.

 

Im not sure why the idea of cultists has led to the mods wondering about including the IG but it can be a really slippery slope. Not that long ago they drew the line saying Inqusition was ok. Then AdMech. Now Daemons. All have fluff justification and havent changed the board but none are so different to chaos or marines in the way the guard are.

 

Bottom line is we should stick to "if its in the main PA themed codex its fine, otherwise these arent the forums youre looking for"

[Cmdr Shepard]

If I'm not mistaken you are asking our opinion on opening a section that deals with non power armour armies while cultists will be allowed in the CSM forum right?

 

I think we could open a new section without compromising the spirit of these forums. Being a power armoured forum does not mean we cannot talk about different matters.

Many "thematic" forums have sections where you can talk about anything that is not relaated with the subject itself (the so called "of topic boards"). Well we could consider the new section one of those.

Personally I think it won't hurt.

[TheDarkApostle]

Regarding the Inquisition.

 

They have always been part of other power-armored codexes. Like Daemonhunters and Witchhunters first, Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle later. To exclude those parts of the codex would be folly, their accept an entire codex or accept none of it. That's what the B&C stance has always been.

 

And not including them would mean we wouldn't include the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle, who are power armored without doubt.

 

The Ad-mech, though Codex-less, were added after much debate as I recall, mainly because there was a large want for them over a long period of time and also because almost all Ad-mech armies we saw used either one of the Space Marines codexes as a base, or one of the Inquisition codexes as a base.

 

So allowing them was more a model and fluff allowance and the army lists were already here.

 

With Daemons it was more the opposite, the models and fluff was already here through Codex: Chaos Space Marines (4th edition)

 

Almost all of the units in Codex: Daemons could be fielded in the Chaos Space Marines codex with little to no trouble.

• Greater Daemons? Claim it's a Generic Greater Daemon and post away!
   
  Daemon Princes? It's a HQ Daemon Prince and post away!
   
  Heralds/Bloodletters/Horrors/Plague Bearers/Nurglings/Daemonettes? Generic Lesser Daemons and post away!
   
  Soul Grinder? Defiler and post away!
   
  Plague Beasts of Nurgle? Chaos Spawns and post away!
  

 

So it wasn't that big of a stretch to allow Daemons since the only new thing we would allow was the army lists. Also we were not entirely sure if Daemons were to actually stay as a lone army list or if it would be added back to Chaos now in 6th edition.

 

Finally, once more: There has not been any discussion about Cultists being allowed at all.

 

The discussion has been whether we should expand to allow full on IG or not now that Cultists are in. Or whether we should once more decide that IG are not for us, but then we also have to re-evaluate, should we still keep Daemons? Because they aren't really power armored, and now they didn't get added back to Chaos Space Marines, and it's mixed feelings whether we should keep them despite not being PA, or give them the boot despite have had them around for the past 4 or 5 years since their inception as a solo list.

 

And that's why we're asking you, the fraters, for your opinions on the matter.

 

TDA

[minigun762]

If I'm not mistaken you are asking our opinion on opening a section that deals with non power armour armies while cultists will be allowed in the CSM forum right?

 

Yes, but to be very clear that section would only be for non power armor non-xeno armies. Xeno = not an option.

[Iron Sage]

Well, I at least, find it highly peculiar and rather stupid that sisters and daemons are allowed, while Imp Guard, which is the most fluff correct ally of both Chaos and Adeptus Astartes, is not.

It makes absolutely no sense, and some of the elitist answers on this thread, makes even less sense in my opinion. While I dont play Guard myself, I hardly understand the "sky is falling" argument regarding including this MOST FLUFFY of ALL allies...:/

 

Edit: As for this forum some how being "just another Human forum" etc., I find that a peculiar statement. This forum is superior to Warseer and Dakka Dakka in so many ways, but its hardly because of omitting Guard surely?? And we wouldnt have Xenos included anyway,so we would keep the theme so to speak.

[pingo]

Yes, but to be very clear that section would only be for non power armor non-xeno armies. Xeno = not an option.

Hang on, I'm a bit lost here.

 

While I really couldn't give a monkey's left nut which forums we have on here so long as the B&C spirit remains (which it surely would) this whole 'forces of humanity' thing sounds like a really woolly and, frankly, arbitrary distinction between what is 'allowed' and 'not allowed' on the forum.

 

B&C has planted it's flag for a long time in the 'power armoured (with a few relevant extras)' camp. Basically, a Space Marine forum*. Which is all fine and dandy. While the argument for including Guard as a 'common and fluffy ally' to all manner of PA forces is all well and good, I don't feel that their case is significantly stronger than other armies for inclusion in the forum.

 

So let's assume that the inclusion of Guard (as this is the one touted around a lot so far) is based on the argument that it's fluffy. To be honest, I'm not sure it's the role of the B&C as a neutral entity, and as a matter of policy, to prescribe what is and what isn't fluffy in 40K. To me, fluff and background arguments are too subjective to base decisions like this on.

 

Now, assuming that fluff is not behind the decision, I still can't see any reason why Guard should be included and zenos not. That is then an arbitrary ruling, unless I am missing something (in which case, throw some wisdom in my direction).

 

The way I see it, we can legitimately go two ways:

 

1) Keep B&C themed around the 'Space Marine' codex armies

2) Change the B&C to a 40K forum, which welcomes all without discrimination

 

As I said, either is fine by me :)

 

 

---

 

* sort of ... Sisters and Daemons are a bit weird to me and I think the 'Power Armoured' theme is also pretty woolly :)

[Smurfalypse]

My opinion is that we as a whole should be more inclusive rather than attempt to be exclusive. Obviously IG stuff would stay on their section of the forum, same with Sisters, and whoever else. I also think this is a great opportunity to take this a step further. Why not have a section for each Xenos race? This is a great forum and it would awesome to have a great spot to go for ALL of the input needed. Hey, I am taking some Necron allies with my CSM, lemme pop over to the Necron section and ask some questions. Works both ways, a Tau player may want to take a small group of Space Wolves with his list.

 

A forum is about cross communication, what better way to get people flowing back and forth? New ideas are shared, new tactics realized, ideas are always better with more input bouncing around. This is a FORUM and if we are able to include more people, we apsolutely should.

 

With the re-introduction of allies in 40k this is the perfect and most logical direction to take the site in. I really hope the decision is made to include the rest of the factions in the game, it would be a great boon for this site.

 

Hope this doesn't get buried :o

[Smurfalypse]

If I'm not mistaken you are asking our opinion on opening a section that deals with non power armour armies while cultists will be allowed in the CSM forum right?

 

Yes, but to be very clear that section would only be for non power armor non-xeno armies. Xeno = not an option.

 

Here is the problem I have with that. Allies. End of story.

 

If I want to take allies from lets say. . . Orks, I would have to go to a different forum to get advice on my mixed army. You would literally be chasing people away as people mix armies more often, hence exclusive by nature. If allies did not make a return, then I would be 100% behind keeping all non-powered armies out of dodge, but that is not the game we are currently playing.

 

Not saying it will change, I fully expect it not to. I just hope that my comments plant a seed that maybe it should be thought about, because it really should be discussed.

[pingo]

I know I just said I didn't care either way, I actually think I totally agree with Smurf on this. Open the B&C to all. It's cool here; let's be inclusive.

[Smurfalypse]

I know I just said I didn't care either way, I actually think I totally agree with Smurf on this. Open the B&C to all. It's cool here; let's be inclusive.

 

http://i.qkme.me/3qfete.jpg

[Brother Ambroz]

http://i.qkme.me/3qfete.jpg

 

You and your memes.... :(

[Killax]

I think they should be fully included because they also are part of the Chaos story and Codex.

The fact that they have never been in there raises more questions than why they are in there now, altough from a power armoured point of perspective I could understand because in their cultist form they will never be part of a Legion.

 

Now the first problem (I think) we have is that Chaos is a Chaos, there is a mix of Daemons and Space Marines but also now Daemons and Vechicles/Walkers (without the involvement of any Chaos Space Marine sacrifice) who are part of the army.

 

My main points why they should be discussed here:

1. GK have henchmen, this is essentially the same altough poorly equipped and poorly treated in the CSM dex.

2. SM have scouts (initiates), these are the step before becomming a full space marine, the CSM where once build out of vets (fluffwise) but since the option of vets is now there this would/could mean there are newer (non-renegare) CSM.

3. CSM have cultists in my mind the closest thing we have to scouts/henchmen and actually a mix of both but again poorly treated.

 

Last but not least, I expect them to be used a lot in Tournament Armies even more than our Daemonic Vechicles/Walkers

[Kristoff]

I don't need to see the need for opening up a new section just for allies. The questions for allies (whether adding PA as the Ally, or vice versa) should be directed according to PA in question. After all, the needs and recommendations for an IG ally to a CSM will differennt than a SW.

 

That having been said, if resources are available, a small section of board for Allies discussion could proove useful and desired, even if the need isn't there.

[Raven Angel]

Well Heres how I see it we already have the IG in our midst we are just in denial about it. Between the existing non marine armies already on the board and the growing HH Legion army lists and you already have every tank and aircraft the IG use being used buy at least one of the other armies plus stormtroopers. Add in Allies and you have the whole codex. Why not give them a sub forum? In truth while this does expand the forum I believe it will actually lessen the work load of our staff because they will no longer have to toe that line between how much IG is to much IG. By the time the HH is done we will be and Armies of Humanity board any way, We might as well get out in front of it so that it can be handled in a manner that is both beneficial to the community here and so that it is administered with the quality and decorum we have come to both expect and enjoy. After all the Bolter and Chainsword aren't symbols of just SM, they are symbols of the Imperium. Its time we stop beating around the bush with the IG and to go ahead and fully embrace what is likely to become just as important a part of our SM armies as our Land Raiders and Razorbacks. It will enrich our forum and our discussions as well as expanding our horizons here in ways I don't think all of the Frater have fully considered. We already have Valkyries and Vendettas in the Inquisition armies. The mechanicum uses all the vehicles in the IG list in their armies, remember the Russ Executioner Regiments of the Ryzan Tech Guard? How many GK armies already have a Chimera for their Stormtroopers? Now we see IG artillery tanks in the basic Crusade Legion list. All in all; outside of HQs we already include all but what 4 or 5 units from the IG codex. All current situation is doing is increasing moderating load on the forum an creating a big gray area about what IG/human stuff is permissible and what is not. This atmosphere of confusion will only increase of the years to come as GW continues to blur the line between these armies with alternate lists. The simplest and best solution for this community is to finally and openly include the IG within our ranks. In doing so we will have already laid the ground work for all the other "cultists" unites to come as well as including the very nice FW armies that already have in their full grandeur.

 

As for the Xenos; as much as I would personally like to see discussions of xenos armies held within beneficial confines of this forum I do not think that doing so is practical within the resource limits available at this time. There is also the practical consideration that many members of the Frater are as xenophobic ( at least on the board) as the Imperium they represent. It is clear that a considerable part of our community significantly dislike the atmosphere of xenos heavy forums and this colors there judgment on the contribution such armies would make to our community. Adding the Xenos armies at this time would likely cause internal conflict on this forum that I personally would not welcome. At this time I don't personally see the benefit significantly outweighing the cost. Therefore I can't in good faith support the addition of Xenos at this time.

[Killax]

That having been said, if resources are available, a small section of board for Allies discussion could proove useful and desired, even if the need isn't there.

 

Nah, I think we should keep it as powerd armoured as possible around here.

 

Again, it's in the Codex so can't be ignored as a unit.

 

GK have henchmen, SM have scouts, CSM have cultists.

 

Cheers,

[Brother Ambroz]

Raven Angel has a really good point. Most of the units in the IG dex are available in at least one of our board's current "legal" codex books. With the inclusion of the HH, we're getting more and more. The IG are really already here might as well just accept it.

 

Xenos.....No. Just no.

[Olis]

*snip*

 

I must say I fully agree, brother. ;)

[JeffJedi]

I can post a pic of a CSM squad and their Cultists.

 

But what if I wanted a less Chaotic looking force?

 

Using Space Marines as Fallen Angels and Imperial Guard models as their Cultists. A Lasgun is an Autogun by the rules.

 

Remember the Eye of Terror Codex and the awesome evil guardsmen in it?

[Kizzdougs]

I think they should be fully included because they also are part of the Chaos story and Codex.

The fact that they have never been in there raises more questions than why they are in there now, altough from a power armoured point of perspective I could understand because in their cultist form they will never be part of a Legion.

 

Now the first problem (I think) we have is that Chaos is a Chaos, there is a mix of Daemons and Space Marines but also now Daemons and Vechicles/Walkers (without the involvement of any Chaos Space Marine sacrifice) who are part of the army.

 

My main points why they should be discussed here:

1. GK have henchmen, this is essentially the same altough poorly equipped and poorly treated in the CSM dex.

2. SM have scouts (initiates), these are the step before becomming a full space marine, the CSM where once build out of vets (fluffwise) but since the option of vets is now there this would/could mean there are newer (non-renegare) CSM.

3. CSM have cultists in my mind the closest thing we have to scouts/henchmen and actually a mix of both but again poorly treated.

 

Last but not least, I expect them to be used a lot in Tournament Armies even more than our Daemonic Vechicles/Walkers

People seem to be missing the point of this thread.

The question isn't 'should we allow cultists.' Kurgan has already said that cultists will be included!

The question is 'should we include Imperial Guard on the B&C.'