Noise Marine option.

[Jacinda]

Basic wargear:

Power armour, Boltgun, Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades

 

So here's the rule as written in the new C:CSM book

(actually it is one bullet point in a list of options but this is the option in question)

Any Noise Marine may take

a close combat weapon ............................. X pts/model

or replace his boltgun with one of the followng:

- Close combat weapon ....................................... .free

- Sonic blaster .......................................... X pts/model

 

Is it possible to have a noise marine with bolt pistol, ccw and sonic blaster?

[Axagoras]

Yes, because he has the bolter and pistol to start with. He can take the CCW for X points, then swap him bolter for the sonic blaster giving him a CCW, BP and sonic blaster.

[minigun762]

I'm not an english major but if that's the wording, I say no. It appears that you're limited to a single transaction.

[Jehoel]

Basic wargear:

Power armour, Boltgun, Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades

 

So here's the rule as written in the new C:CSM book

(actually it is one bullet point in a list of options but this is the option in question)

Any Noise Marine may take

a close combat weapon ............................. X pts/model

or replace his boltgun with one of the followng:

- Close combat weapon ....................................... .free

- Sonic blaster .......................................... X pts/model

 

Is it possible to have a noise marine with bolt pistol, ccw and sonic blaster?

I disagree, minigun. The way it is worded is:

 

Bolter + boltpistol is the base loadout.

Pay points and then you can add a ccw to the base.

or

Replace the bolter with a free ccw

or

Pay points to replace the bolter with a Sonic Blaster.

 

So, yes the noise marine can have a polt pistol, ccw, and a sonic blaster. But that must be pricey. :lol:

[Jacinda]

I'm not an english major but if that's the wording, I say no. It appears that you're limited to a single transaction.

I can give you more of the context if you think it will help.

 

Options:
• May add up to fifteen Noise Marines ....... XX/model
• Any Noise Marine may take
 a close combat weapon ......................... XX/model
 Or replace his boltgun with one of the following:
 - Close combat weapon ............................. free
 - Sonic blaster ............................... XX/model
• One Noise Marine per ten models may replace
his boltgun with a blastmaster .................. XX/model

 

But if you still feel that it is either/or and one time only, that's cool. We just need a consensus on how to play it. While I feel that the one option my be taken any number of times (including one model multiple times), it is not like it is entirely crystal clear in its intent. I mean if it were two seperate options it would be obvious; but this is what we have.

[Iron Sage]

I am sad to say that the word "or", kind of shatters this dream.

 

Would be nice for sure, but as its written now, I really don`t think you can.

[minigun762]

My assumption is that its intended to allow you to have "sonicgrit", or BP + CCW + SB and will hopefully be FAQ'd that way but as it is now, I stand by my earlier judgement. Not that that means much :P

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

It's an either/or situation.

 

Either grab a ccw for X pts, or swap out the bolter for one of two options.

 

Can't do both.

[Jacinda]

It's an either/or situation.

 

Either grab a ccw for X pts, or swap out the bolter for one of two options.

 

Can't do both.

See, where I see it is that ANY marine can thke that option. Even the champion . Even the one you gave the blastmaster to. Even one that has already taken that option. Every time you take the option it's one or the other, but you can take the option ANY amount of times. This could lead to a noise marine with 8 chainswords if you really wanted to be silly. The Blastmaster says only one marine can have it but there is no limit to how many times you go through "add a ccw or trade away the bolter" other than only have one bolter to trade.

 

I am like 80% sure this is how it is supposed to work. :)

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

It's an either/or situation.

 

Either grab a ccw for X pts, or swap out the bolter for one of two options.

 

Can't do both.

See, where I see it is that ANY marine can thke that option. Even the champion . Even the one you gave the blastmaster to. Even one that has already taken that option. Every time you take the option it's one or the other, but you can take the option ANY amount of times. This could lead to a noise marine with 8 chainswords if you really wanted to be silly. The Blastmaster says only one marine can have it but there is no limit to how many times you go through "add a ccw or trade away the bolter" other than only have one bolter to trade.

 

I am like 80% sure this is how it is supposed to work. :)

That might well be how it's supposed to work, but look at the text.

 

May take a CCW, or replace bolter with one of two options. It's that "or" that, to me, means that it's either one or the other.

[Seahawk]

It's either/or. Only one option may be taken (you may take the ccw, or you can swap out the bolter for X).

 

 

To put it in different words:

 

"You can take a pizza in addition to your soda, or you can swap out your soda for either a pizza or a cake."

 

Do you still think you can have pizza AND cake? (ccw AND sonic blaster?)

[Jacinda]

You have a token to an arcade. You can play a game for a penny. You can use your token for a free game or use it to buy a candy bar.

 

Does this limit you to one game or one candy bar? Could you not trade for the candy bar and buy all the games you have money for?

[Jacinda]

yeah, I know. I'm being stubborn. let me know if I get too combative.

 

I do see where you are limited to one or the other with a single option. What I don't see is how the number of times I can take that option is limited.

 

NM_1 has a bolter and a bolt pistol.

NM_2 has a bolter and a bolt pistol.

 

"Any noise marine may" take a ccw or trade his bolter for either a ccw or a sonic blaster.

 

NM_1 is a noise marine. He qualifies as "any noise marine" and so he buys a chainsword.

 

Now, NM_1 has a chainsword, bolter and a bolt pistol.

NM_2 has a bolter and a bolt pistol.

 

Back to the options:

"Any noise marine may" take a ccw or trade his bolter for either a ccw or a sonic blaster.

NM_1 is still a noise marine. NM_2 is a noise marine. They both have the same qualifications, that being "any noise marine." So why would NM_1 not be part of any noise marine any longer? He fills all the restrictions on taking that option.

 

I can see where taking the option means I do one or the other, but where is the limit to how many times that option can be taken? Every time we take the option it is either one or the other. Every time. And there can be lots of times.

[Brother Casman]

In the absence of wording like "any Noise marine may do one of the following:" or " may take a CCW for N or exchange his bolter for ... but not both" I would conclude that Jacinda has the right of it.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

yeah, I know. I'm being stubborn. let me know if I get too combative.

 

I do see where you are limited to one or the other with a single option. What I don't see is how the number of times I can take that option is limited.

 

NM_1 has a bolter and a bolt pistol.

NM_2 has a bolter and a bolt pistol.

 

"Any noise marine may" take a ccw or trade his bolter for either a ccw or a sonic blaster.

 

NM_1 is a noise marine. He qualifies as "any noise marine" and so he buys a chainsword.

 

Now, NM_1 has a chainsword, bolter and a bolt pistol.

NM_2 has a bolter and a bolt pistol.

 

Back to the options:

"Any noise marine may" take a ccw or trade his bolter for either a ccw or a sonic blaster.

NM_1 is still a noise marine. NM_2 is a noise marine. They both have the same qualifications, that being "any noise marine." So why would NM_1 not be part of any noise marine any longer? He fills all the restrictions on taking that option.

 

I can see where taking the option means I do one or the other, but where is the limit to how many times that option can be taken? Every time we take the option it is either one or the other. Every time. And there can be lots of times.

Sure he fills all the restrictions on being a NM.

 

However, he has taken option 1, grabbing a ccw, and he may either do that, or swap his bolter for a ccw or a sonic blaster.

 

Either grab a ccw to go with his bolt pistol and bolter, or trade his bolter for a sonic blaster to go with his bolt pistol.

 

Any noise marine may take a ccw or trade his bolter for either a ccw or a sonic blaster.

[timmytool]

ok lets look for precedence of this situation.... C:DA 4th ed p86 & 89

 

86A dev sq wargear "

Wargear:

- Power armour

- Bolt pistol

- Frag grenades

- Krak grenades

- Bolter"

 

86B dev sq options "

- The Veteran Sergeant may replace his bolter or bolt pistol with a chainsword for free, or his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for +XX points.

- The Veteran Sergeant may replace his chainsword with a power weapon for +XX points or with a power fist for +XX points."

 

89 A Dark Angels Force "

HEAVY SUPPORT

Devastator Squad XXX points

This five-man squad is led by a Veteran Sergent armed with a plasma pistol and a power fist. It includes a lascannon, a ......."

 

This means the sergeant swaps his bolter for a chainsword, then his bolt pistol for a plasma pistol(first dot point quoted) then uses the second quoted dot point to change the chainsword for a power fist.

 

So in the codex and without any FAQ's their sample list inside the codex saids both choices can be used on the same model even though the dreaded "or' was the only link word in the one dot point option.

 

I'd say its worded badly but is common practice for GW and does not limit the options.

[Seahawk]

That's not necessary, so long as one understands what the word "or" means. Otherwise, the same argument can be said for C:SM, for the landspeeder. There, it says you may take the first option, or you may take the second option. "Or" is not "and". That's a very important part of language that I think Jacinda isn't working with here.

 

Alternatively, Raptors. "may replace their bolt pistol with a plasma pistol, OR take one of the following: flamer, meltagun, etc"

 

And the list goes on. Plague Marines, Chaos Space Marines, units in C:IG, C:BA, etc etc...so now you're arguing that all of these entries that say "or" now mean "and"? I'd like to see a CSM model with 2 ccw's, a plasma pistol, and an autocannon, because your argument says they can when they really, truly can't.

 

Or is it just that you want Noise Marines to be super duper again, with terrible consequences for the rest of the game?

[Jacinda]

I think we have our own opinions and I doubt we will be able to change each others mind. I believe this will need to be discussed with my local group because we have a several CSM players.

 

I am sure there will be more than a few other questions come up in the next onth or two that will eventually need to be FAQ'ed. I just wonder how GW would react if we start emailing them questions about a book the day before it is released ...

[Seahawk]

Poorly :)

 

So you do support a CSM with 2 ccw, plasma pistol, and heavy weapon? :(

[Jacinda]

Poorly ;)

 

So you do support a CSM with 2 ccw, plasma pistol, and heavy weapon? :D

Hey, if you want to blow the points on it, go ahead.

Personally I like the new basic CSM because they can be equiped as assault support or ranged support without have to pay for the other option that will not be used. In other words I think dediacted roles preform better than catch all roles if for no other reason than letting me put more models on the table for the same cost. -- And yes, that means I am arguing for an option I will not use; I do know some others who will, tho.

[Iron Sage]

Other units have "and/or" in their text though. Noise marines do not, so I don`t really see any possibillity that they can take everything.

 

Perhaps they will be able to if this gets FAQed for some reasons, but as this is pretty clear in the text, I dont think it will be FAQed to be honest.

[DarkGuard]

Noise Marines don't have and/or in the wording, therefore they take a CCW or a sonic blaster. I know you've put a lot of time and effort into your argument Jacinda, but when you've put that much time and effort and roundabout thinking into the argument, and there's an easier, just as logical and playable solution that most agree with, you're probably gaming the rules a little, even if you don't mean to.

[Grey Mage]

I expect it to get FAQd in about a month, along with a few other things. I see no reason they cant do both given GWs usual wording- wich while not grammatically correct is atleast consistent

in this case.

[Axagoras]

Its the same as a tac sgt getting 2 special weps (and its the new codex so all broke/op combos are to be allowed)

[Emperors Immortals]

While ive (reluctantly) come to accept a verdict of and/or I do want to point out that the word "or" is a coordinating conjunction and that it does not necessitate an exclusion or addition from or with any following words or concepts. The use of the word "either" as a leading concept would have solved this problem.

 

Strictly speaking the listing presents two options which are not necessarily mutually exclusive but instead possibly complimentary.

 

At least according to my stupid English Professor, useless subject *grumble grumble*

 

/sigh.

 

 

The example he gave me was "the author ould have either written this clearly OR left it like it is, and we can complain or cry and have the option to actually do both".