Excessus Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 So, let me get this straight. If I have a land raider filled with termies and I run Master of Deception, I can infiltrate both the termines and their transport and it only counts as one of my D3 units? Cripes. It works like this, you give infiltrate to the terminators(infantry) and as per the rulebook, they and their dedicated transport(so any LR they have bought as a dedicated transport) can infiltrate... So yeah, if I used this setup I would always opt to go second to make my termies able to assault straight out of the box! ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Don't forget that if you have first turn, Infiltrators/Scouts can't charge. *knocks self, not to hard, in head* Bah. Forgotten that. Miko, the Bane of Dreams ^^ However, if you are going second, you are able to charge in your first turn. I am surprised that so many people didn't thought about it. You know, Loyalists could do it immediately after release of 6th via Shrike and I thought that all those list-building and tactical gurus will bring it up. Well, they didn't so I kept my mouth shut. After our dex dropped, I realised there is such possibility, I thought: "What the hell, I will help my treacherous brothers a bit." So here we are. I already checked facts: LR is a dedicated transport for termies. Termies are infantry and if you are lucky you can infiltrate more than one of them. What I am not entirely sure about is ICs joined with units. Do they still count as single unit for purpose of infiltration? Because infiltrating LR with 4 termies and one beefed up lord in TDA or two PA lords would be even more nasty ;). If IC has to be nominated separately, no problem there, quite contrary: Infantry IC will confer this to any unit he joins, so you just nominate IC join it with termies, and stick them in LR. In addition in such instances IC in unit of say bikers could be nominated and confer this rule for his entire unit. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Problem is that if you give an IC infiltrate he confers this to his squad, yes. But the Land Raider is not his dedicated transport, it's theirs, he just hitches a ride... [Edit]: Why did "catch-a-ride" pop up in my head just now? :) [Edit2]: Strike that! In the rules for Infiltrate it actually only said "...deployed inside a Dedicated Transport...", not their Dedicated Transport. So if I am reading this correctly, if an IC have infiltrate and join a squad without in their dedicated transport, they can all be happy infiltrating friends together? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Problem is that if you give an IC infiltrate he confers this to his squad, yes. But the Land Raider is not his dedicated transport, it's theirs, he just hitches a ride... [Edit]: Why did "catch-a-ride" pop up in my head just now? :) [Edit2]: Strike that! In the rules for Infiltrate it actually only said "...deployed inside a Dedicated Transport...", not their Dedicated Transport. So if I am reading this correctly, if an IC have infiltrate and join a squad without in their dedicated transport, they can all be happy infiltrating friends together? I thought that it is something like this: 1. IC joins squad, now they are all infiltrating. 2. Infiltrating unit can deploy inside their dedicated transport. EDIT: But I think this is kinda stretched out. Frankly I think that it works like this: IC joined in a unit count as single unit. That was always there. Infantry unit is unit that consists solely of infantry models. So you nominate D3 infantry units and deploy them. Simple as that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 An IC without infiltrate cannot join in this way, but a squad with the USR can deploy in a dedicated transport, and furthermore recieve the outflank USR if held in reserve. They just need to deploy embarked in it. So, Lords/Sorcerors of Slaanesh can outflank with these units nativly, and in addition both Ahriman and Huron are INFANTRY and can therefore confer teh USR upon themselves first and then join chosen or Zerkers or whatever - so yeah theres a couple of wicked combos right there :eek :) :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Like I said in another thread, I don't think the landraider will really be worth it in terms of cost at all this edition. I like the brashness of the strategy, but I don't really think it would work well. If I could overlook the vampiric themes of the Blood Angels (my major qualm about them), I'd so have taken 3 land raiders and deep striked them because that's awesome. And I would have had a Redeemer painted up like the General Lee. On topic, I've been reading through the book and I think there's a lot of stuff that's probably going to be FAQ'd. Nobody else gets to infiltrate Terminators-and thematically it doesn't make sense. Terminator or "Tactical Dreadnought Armor" doesn't really scream "Sneaky". Power Armor just barely so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Nobody else gets to infiltrate Terminators-and thematically it doesn't make sense. Terminator or "Tactical Dreadnought Armor" doesn't really scream "Sneaky". Power Armor just barely so. Maybe because no other army had TDAs AND Warp Expertise at their disposal? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 On topic, I've been reading through the book and I think there's a lot of stuff that's probably going to be FAQ'd. Nobody else gets to infiltrate Terminators-and thematically it doesn't make sense. Terminator or "Tactical Dreadnought Armor" doesn't really scream "Sneaky". Power Armor just barely so. Nobody else than blood angels gets to DS their LRs, nobody else than SW gets to have terminator sergeants for their 'tactical squads'...and so on and so forth... You shouldn't compare stuff like that, there are enough silly things in other codexes to give us reason enough to infiltrate termies... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Nobody else gets to infiltrate Terminators-and thematically it doesn't make sense. Terminator or "Tactical Dreadnought Armor" doesn't really scream "Sneaky". Power Armor just barely so. Maybe because no other army had TDAs AND Warp Expertise at their disposal? :) That and it's not hard to camo a tank and the soldiers within to spring an ambush .....even easier with the warp as your "ally" ....(to paraphrase another genre....) and I don't see the issue with an IC that is part of the unit. If he is part of that unit while they are in reserve you treat them as one unit so why would this be any different? ~BtW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Nobody else gets to infiltrate Terminators-and thematically it doesn't make sense. Terminator or "Tactical Dreadnought Armor" doesn't really scream "Sneaky". Power Armor just barely so. Maybe because no other army had TDAs AND Warp Expertise at their disposal? :) Dark Apostle novel. When they wait to ambush the Ad-Mech by hiding inside the mountain walls and then pop out like jack-in-the-boxes ;) TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 More I come to think of it, the more an infiltrating or outflanking raider becomes appealing to me. Your going to pay a lot of points for it of course, and as Miko reminded me of, you cannot charge if you have turn 1. However, its an AV 14 (and really guys, Av 14 is not that easy for all armies to deal with in one turn) box. There are even moments where you may want to sacrifice its assault prowess (I know, I know, thats what we pay for, but still), and rush out and blast the enemy with ranged weapons in very close range. It certainly gives you some tactical flexibillity if you for instance outflank it. But even an infiltrating raider set up 18 from the foe can be quite the problem for your enemy. It gives him/her less time to deal with it. And the thing about AV 14 now is that it will be eroded to death due to glance, in time. But again, not every army will consistently slay it in one turn. What it can do then, is to bring a dangerous unit right into the throat of your foe. Even if the foe manages to deal with it, it is likely to take a lot of heat from the rest of your army. I am not saying this is an especially viable/cost efficient tactic. But I think it can be at times, and in any case, I think it sounds rather fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Just to make sure: If you placed a unit on the board using infiltrate you can't attack in turn 1 even if you go second, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 "A unit that deplys using these rules cannot charge in the first turn." is what it says in the rulebook. A turn is defined as a player turn unless stated otherwise, so all that is left is to set if it's the controlling player's first turn, or the games first turn... ...there are decent arguments for both sides... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Just to make sure: If you placed a unit on the board using infiltrate you can't attack in turn 1 even if you go second, right? You actually can if you go second :( But...against many armies, you may not want to choose to go second if you can help it, and in particular now with First Blood Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 However, its an AV 14 (and really guys, Av 14 is not that easy for all armies to deal with in one turn) box..But again, not every army will consistently slay it in one turn. necron can . IG can too , most marine armies run 4 melta too on fast moving units . It is too risky .It only works if someone builds an army totaly devoided of melta/MC or str 10 weapons . I cant realy think of any good armies that do that in 6th . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 This is how the rules work. It's a legitimate strategy. Have fun! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmytool Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 BRB p 38 Infiltrate" A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in the first turn. Having Infiltrate also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept as Reserves (see page 40). A unit with Infiltrate is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, they may Infiltrate or Outflank along with their Transport, but if they do, they must deploy/move onto the table embarked within it." BRB p 9 " GAME TURNS AND PLAYER TURNS In a complete game turn, each player gets a player turn, divided into Movement, Shooting and Assault phases. One game turn therefore comprises two player turns - one for each player. Whenever a rule refers to 'a turn' it always means 'player turn' unless it specifically refers to a 'game turn'." So going first no assault, second "player turn" assault acceptable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 It was also addressed in the FAQ, for those that read 'em...:evil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 And yes, please infiltrate that landraider closer so my melta can slag it quicker. Thank you. Ave Imperator Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3197704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Again: Loyalists were able to do it after 6th dropped, via Shrike. Second: I don't care about meltaguns anyway, my guys are going to charge... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3198141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve shields Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Im definately going to be trying this outflanking shenanigans, hopefully i roll 2 squads and can have my biker squad also comes in from outflank in addition to mr raider Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3198327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Im definately going to be trying this outflanking shenanigans, hopefully i roll 2 squads and can have my biker squad also comes in from outflank in addition to mr raider Well if you want additional outflankers, just join your guys with Lord on steed of slaanesh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3198474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Well if you want additional outflankers, just join your guys with Lord on steed of slaanesh unlike Scout, Infiltrate does not get passed on to characters that join the squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3198674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Well if you want additional outflankers, just join your guys with Lord on steed of slaanesh unlike Scout, Infiltrate does not get passed on to characters that join the squad. I am not entirely sure we understand each other. Steed of Slaanesh confers outflank to IC and he confers it to any squad he joins. Similarly IC without infiltrate can't join unit with infiltrate, but if it is IC who is infiltrating, he confers it to entire unit. Therefore I brought up some shenanigans that can be made by Master of Deception (give it to infantry IC and join him to non-infantry squad and profit), but stated that I really think it works this way: By infantry unit we mean unit consisting entirely of infantry models and IC joined with squad presumably count as single unit. So you roll D3, nominate units that will be infiltrating (and if ICs are part of said unit/s), then you just deploy your units and infiltrate. Done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3198709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Well if you want additional outflankers, just join your guys with Lord on steed of slaanesh unlike Scout, Infiltrate does not get passed on to characters that join the squad. I am not entirely sure we understand each other. Steed of Slaanesh confers outflank to IC and he confers it to any squad he joins. Similarly IC without infiltrate can't join unit with infiltrate, but if it is IC who is infiltrating, he confers it to entire unit. Therefore I brought up some shenanigans that can be made by Master of Deception (give it to infantry IC and join him to non-infantry squad and profit), but stated that I really think it works this way: By infantry unit we mean unit consisting entirely of infantry models and IC joined with squad presumably count as single unit. So you roll D3, nominate units that will be infiltrating (and if ICs are part of said unit/s), then you just deploy your units and infiltrate. Done. Thats right, roll D3 infiltrate points, give them to D3 IC and watch the D3 infantry units infiltrate with dedicated transports - beautiful!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262451-master-of-deception/page/2/#findComment-3199354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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