Smurfalypse Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Okay, there is no easy way for me to say this so I am just going to come out and say it! I don't think we should see each other anymore CSM squads, I want to see other people. Look, I keep throwing lists together and I keep coming back to the same thing. I would rather NOT buy base CSMs, I would rather just buy triple the amount of Cultists and fill in the points saving with truly elite stuff (when I say elite I mean everything OTHER than CSMs). I could take two units of CSM x10, do my normal load out and throw them in a Rhino for just under 250pts. Or I could get two squads of 20 Cultists with stubguns and x2 flamers in each. So, why not just take four or six units of Cultists for the same price, literally throwing 120 of these guys on the board for a fairly cheap amount (and I added stubguns to them because I like the 24 inch window of coolerthanflashlight fire, so could be cheaper if wanted). Are 40 Cultists with stubguns worth the same amount of a single 10 man squad of CSMs? I am very very hard pressed to say yes. Yeah, individually they cannot accomplish what a CSM squad can, but in the scope of an army list they can just clog everything up and actually free up points for Daemon Allies or other "better" choices in the Heavy, Fast Attack, or Elite section of our army book (and those seem to be the strength of it). I keep writing lists, I am on my 15th one over the passed two days and I keep coming to the same conclusion. Cultists may just be better for an army list than a base CSM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Okay, there is no easy way for me to say this so I am just going to come out and say it! I don't think we should see each other anymore CSM squads, I want to see other people. Look, I keep throwing lists together and I keep coming back to the same thing. I would rather NOT buy base CSMs, I would rather just buy triple the amount of Cultists and fill in the points saving with truly elite stuff (when I say elite I mean everything OTHER than CSMs). I could take two units of CSM x10, do my normal load out and throw them in a Rhino for just under 250pts. Or I could get two squads of 20 Cultists with stubguns and x2 flamers in each. So, why not just take four or six units of Cultists for the same price, literally throwing 120 of these guys on the board for a fairly cheap amount (and I added stubguns to them because I like the 24 inch window of coolerthanflashlight fire, so could be cheaper if wanted). Are 40 Cultists with stubguns worth the same amount of a single 10 man squad of CSMs? I am very very hard pressed to say yes. Yeah, individually they cannot accomplish what a CSM squad can, but in the scope of an army list they can just clog everything up and actually free up points for Daemon Allies or other "better" choices in the Heavy, Fast Attack, or Elite section of our army book (and those seem to be the strength of it). I keep writing lists, I am on my 15th one over the passed two days and I keep coming to the same conclusion. Cultists may just be better for an army list than a base CSM. I think they would work nicely with a mechanized list. Since they are cheap, you can fill the table with them, and still throw fiends, defilers and such against the opponent. I'm considering creating a target saturation list. I would only use CSM cult troops, with the proper marked HQs. I just don't find interesting by this codex to have vanilla CSMs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimerical Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 You could also take one or two units of CSMs and then take 4-5 units of cultists. That will end up being the more effective and balanced choice than going either/or. CSMs will just be far better for pushing towards to enemy, which you basically have to do to win most games. Cultists might be better for holding backfield objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 You could also take one or two units of CSMs and then take 4-5 units of cultists. That will end up being the more effective and balanced choice than going either/or. CSMs will just be far better for pushing towards to enemy, which you basically have to do to win most games. Cultists might be better for holding backfield objectives. Yes they would, but you could also save points and do that with an elite, FA, or heavy unit as well. I think Cultists are meat shield, much like the IG blob squads that people are taking in current lists as allies. They do not sit on back objectives, they throw the 50 bodies at your opponent and force him to deal with it. I know we need tougher stuff, but we can take tougher stuff in Heavy, FA, or Elite slots. That is where I am running into the issue of actually fitting my base CSMs in the lists I am writing up, the Cultists just feel far more efficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 You could also take one or two units of CSMs and then take 4-5 units of cultists. That will end up being the more effective and balanced choice than going either/or. CSMs will just be far better for pushing towards to enemy, which you basically have to do to win most games. Cultists might be better for holding backfield objectives. Yes they would, but you could also save points and do that with an elite, FA, or heavy unit as well. I think Cultists are meat shield, much like the IG blob squads that people are taking in current lists as allies. They do not sit on back objectives, they throw the 50 bodies at your opponent and force him to deal with it. I know we need tougher stuff, but we can take tougher stuff in Heavy, FA, or Elite slots. That is where I am running into the issue of actually fitting my base CSMs in the lists I am writing up, the Cultists just feel far more efficient. Before I hit the sack, I just feel like saying that you should have one medium sized squad of Wordbearers, camping rear objectice, and filming; making a snuff film of the 120 strong rawing lunatics that rush forth to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 You could also take one or two units of CSMs and then take 4-5 units of cultists. That will end up being the more effective and balanced choice than going either/or. CSMs will just be far better for pushing towards to enemy, which you basically have to do to win most games. Cultists might be better for holding backfield objectives. Yes they would, but you could also save points and do that with an elite, FA, or heavy unit as well. I think Cultists are meat shield, much like the IG blob squads that people are taking in current lists as allies. They do not sit on back objectives, they throw the 50 bodies at your opponent and force him to deal with it. I know we need tougher stuff, but we can take tougher stuff in Heavy, FA, or Elite slots. That is where I am running into the issue of actually fitting my base CSMs in the lists I am writing up, the Cultists just feel far more efficient. Before I hit the sack, I just feel like saying that you should have one medium sized squad of Wordbearers, camping rear objectice, and filming; making a snuff film of the 120 strong rawing lunatics that rush forth to die. This made me laugh very very loud, thank you for that :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 You could also take one or two units of CSMs and then take 4-5 units of cultists. That will end up being the more effective and balanced choice than going either/or. CSMs will just be far better for pushing towards to enemy, which you basically have to do to win most games. Cultists might be better for holding backfield objectives. Yes they would, but you could also save points and do that with an elite, FA, or heavy unit as well. I think Cultists are meat shield, much like the IG blob squads that people are taking in current lists as allies. They do not sit on back objectives, they throw the 50 bodies at your opponent and force him to deal with it. I know we need tougher stuff, but we can take tougher stuff in Heavy, FA, or Elite slots. That is where I am running into the issue of actually fitting my base CSMs in the lists I am writing up, the Cultists just feel far more efficient. Before I hit the sack, I just feel like saying that you should have one medium sized squad of Wordbearers, camping rear objectice, and filming; making a snuff film of the 120 strong rawing lunatics that rush forth to die. This made me laugh very very loud, thank you for that :P Your very welcome! Good night for now :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I have been mulling this over as well..... A couple CSM units and then a bunch of cultists backed up by some Daemon engines, Havocs and HQ choices with elite retinues. Forget the Rhinos, forget the Land Raiders. Just unload on the enemy from range while sending the cultists foward ahead of the marines...... I just hate to let my Rhinos and Land Raider sit collecting dust but I am starting to think you are right. I actually think the Jeske has actually said the same thing in regards to what he predicts will rule the tourney scene ( I think it was him....) ~BtW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Schrecke Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I have been mulling this over as well..... A couple CSM units and then a bunch of cultists backed up by some Daemon engines, Havocs and HQ choices with elite retinues. Forget the Rhinos, forget the Land Raiders. Just unload on the enemy from range while sending the cultists foward ahead of the marines...... I just hate to let my Rhinos and Land Raider sit collecting dust but I am starting to think you are right. I actually think the Jeske has actually said the same thing in regards to what he predicts will rule the tourney scene ( I think it was him....) ~BtW I agree with this use of cultists. To me it makes the most sense. I feel like the CSM would be better at holding the obj, should some threat arrive on the board that would just smash your cultists losing you an obj and not having a unit that could react fast enough to reclaim it, or contest it. My self, I wouldn't really use them for anything but meat shield. But I have yet to see them in action, so this is only a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attomsk Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 With that many cultists you would probably need an apostle to make sure they don't all fall back right away. I have played a few small scenarios with 20 cultists vs space marines and as expected they just melt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallistus Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 With that many cultists you would probably need an apostle to make sure they don't all fall back right away. I have played a few small scenarios with 20 cultists vs space marines and as expected they just melt. I would agree. This is what happened when I tried them, but that was just in one small game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Looking at this as a possible..... Dark Apostle w/ retinue of Chosen Coryphaeus in TDA (Lord) w/ retinue of Terminators Hellbrute, AC, DCCW w/ Hvy Flamer Cultists x15, flamer Cultists x15, flamer Cultists x15, flamer CSM's x10, flamer and plas gun CSM's x10, flamer and plas gun Havocs x5, 1 ac, 2 ML's, 1 ML w/flakk, Plas pistol and PF Forgefiend, w/ 2 Hades AC's, 1 EctoCan Forgefiend, w/ 2 Hades AC's, 1 EctoCan Comes in just under 2k ~BtW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Looking at this as a possible..... Dark Apostle w/ retinue of Chosen Coryphaeus in TDA (Lord) w/ retinue of Terminators Hellbrute, AC, DCCW w/ Hvy Flamer Cultists x15, flamer Cultists x15, flamer Cultists x15, flamer CSM's x10, flamer and plas gun CSM's x10, flamer and plas gun Havocs x5, 1 ac, 2 ML's, 1 ML w/flakk, Plas pistol and PF Forgefiend, w/ 2 Hades AC's, 1 EctoCan Forgefiend, w/ 2 Hades AC's, 1 EctoCan Comes in just under 2k ~BtW Since the Dark Apostle is only 2 wounds it irks me to no end to actually call him "Dark Apostle". I'd much rather switch it around alittle to Coryphaeus in TDA (Lord) w/ retinue of Terminators First Acolyte w/ retinue of Chosen And call it a First Acolyte instead ^_^ TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Wade Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 A little question - why Dark Apostle? For 115 pionts it's possible to take chaos lord with sigil and power fist - fearless, much better at close combat, and as for Ld buff - it's only 6". Or is it just because of WB fluff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totgeboren Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Well, a squad of Chosen without VotLW and without an icon would benefit quite a bit from having a Dark Apostle, zealot gives hatered against everything and fearless, and with lots of small squads of cultists, that 6" Ls buff could be quite useful. But I agree, a Lord with a sigil and a mace cost as much a barebone apostle, and all you trade for a much better profile is hatred vs everything, a 6" Ld aura and the very very circumstantial 'reroll Chaos Boons" ability. They seem overcosted to say the least, and hatred really is something you only need vs other marines, and we already have access to that via VotLW. It is obvious that the idea behind him is for cultists centred armies to have a chance at working, but he is costly for being a buffer of meatshields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 A little question - why Dark Apostle? For 115 pionts it's possible to take chaos lord with sigil and power fist - fearless, much better at close combat, and as for Ld buff - it's only 6". Or is it just because of WB fluff? It's not a need, I think most just like the idea and it was also the case in the older codex we could get them. Cultists are the fat of the CSM army. The harness is in our Elites, Heavies and HQ's. When one makes use of the best, the best, the best and the best you'll get a good and competative list ;). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Chaos Marines fill the niche of objective holders, particluarly objectives away from your board edge. My Space Marine army is really not scared of 20 Cultists on an objective, but pushing a unit of Chaos Marines off an objective becomes problematic and a real dedication of resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 My Space Marine army is really not scared of 20 Cultists on an objective, but pushing a unit of Chaos Marines off an objective becomes problematic and a real dedication of resources. You also shouldn't be scared of them, ignoring them however is not an option, ignoring our elite, hq and heavy is also not an option. This is what makes CSM competative now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I think you misunderstand me; the Cultists do not scare me because they require next to no effort to push off an objective, whereas pushing a Chaos Marine squad off an objective is much harder. Cultists are fodder troops designed to be thrown down the throats of opponents and hope they choke or at least distract opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I think you misunderstand me; the Cultists do not scare me because they require next to no effort to push off an objective, whereas pushing a Chaos Marine squad off an objective is much harder. Cultists are fodder troops designed to be thrown down the throats of opponents and hope they choke or at least distract opponents. I don't think you appreciate the cultists role as a distraction, throwaway units, cannon fodder, mobile cover, overwatch eaters...and so on... Remember that not only are they much worse than your tactical marines, they are also a LOT cheaper so we can afford other stuff that will knock out your tactical squad with ease... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I showed my appreciation for the throwaway nature of Cultists here. Cultists are fodder troops designed to be thrown down the throats of opponents and hope they choke or at least distract opponents. It's not a competetion. I know full well how dangerous different units of Chaos Marines and their vehicles are and what threat they pose to Tactical Marines; this has no bearing on whether a Cultist unit can safely hold an Objective alone in comparison to a Chaos Marine squad, which was my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Well, I for sure wouldn't leave them alone...but even if I did, my opponent would have to dedicate something to take them out, usually something much more expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Honestly I'd have to agree on the Lord vs DA assessment, I just had yet to get around to comparisons point wise. The list above was mainly a food for thought exercise so the thoughts are appreciated, helps me to get others thoughts. I ran my DA as a sorc last addition so I am not adverse to running them differently in the slightest :) ~BtW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellrender Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 i think Cap. Idaho means to say, is that to remove a unit of cultists all he has to do is sent a couple of rounds of fire into them, and they flee, which clears the objective free to be taken. THis can already be archeived by a scout squad, with some very light fire support. On the other hand, CSM, need a dedicated push of some proper units to remove them. They dont flee as fast, and their armour keeps them save from the bolter rounds of just 1 squad. And thus you are looking at the more expensive stuff, like multiple plasma guns, power weapons, or just multiple units. I dont think he meant to say, that you can easily ignore cultists, just that if its ''just'' cultists standing on an objective, its no issue, whatsoever to remove them, where as CSM, require some thought and dedication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 That's right! Trust me, if I ever get round to collection Chaos Marines (and I'm sorely tempted!), you guarante I'll be taking plenty of fodder, um, I mean dedicated followers of the Dark Gods. I'd probably go Word Bearers, since they will fit well with my Ultramarines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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