Troop Choices

[the jeske]

the problem with cultists is that we dont have orders , nor do we have comisars to make them fearless . there is also a difference between a blob of 40-50 dudes with 4-5 sgts and a comisar [ultra hard to get out for most units] and 30 dudes that run away when they are broken . Also unlike IG we dont have access to ally in a cheap fearless giving HQ [sm have those] .

 

now this doesnt mean that cultists dont have a place in our lists . being walking cover , bubble wraping havocks or tanks , being an additional scoring unit are all good uses for them , but a cultists focused army sadly will not be a good one .

[Excessus]

the problem with cultists is that we dont have orders , nor do we have comisars to make them fearless . there is also a difference between a blob of 40-50 dudes with 4-5 sgts and a comisar [ultra hard to get out for most units] and 30 dudes that run away when they are broken . Also unlike IG we dont have access to ally in a cheap fearless giving HQ [sm have those] .

 

now this doesnt mean that cultists dont have a place in our lists . being walking cover , bubble wraping havocks or tanks , being an additional scoring unit are all good uses for them , but a cultists focused army sadly will not be a good one .

I agree that this will most likely be the best use of cultists, as a supplement to your normal units, distractions, overwatch fodder, and so on...there are quite a lot of uses for them, but sitting in the back controlling an objective all by themselves? They don't have the firepower or the staying power to do that unfortunately...

 

(Commissars don't make them fearless, they make them stubborn, and gives rerolls)

[techsoldaten]

I don't think we should see each other anymore CSM squads, I want to see other people.

The first list I want to run is Abaddon with a dark apostle, 4 units of chosen, 2 units of terminators, a noise marine squad and a pair of land raiders.

 

The fact this is doable is making me smile.

[Verythrax Draconis]

Well, the marks can make quite a difference, I think. MoN having T+1 or MoS having I+1 can make a good difference while keeping them reasonably cheap.

[Urauloth]

Idk, a MoN ramps their cost up by, what, 50%? At t4 bolters still autokill them on 4s, and they flee just as easily. A tac squad can still reliably shove them off an objective with a single turn of shooting or a round of bolt pistol fire and a charge.

[Brother Schrecke]

the problem with cultists is that we dont have orders , nor do we have comisars to make them fearless . there is also a difference between a blob of 40-50 dudes with 4-5 sgts and a comisar [ultra hard to get out for most units] and 30 dudes that run away when they are broken . Also unlike IG we dont have access to ally in a cheap fearless giving HQ [sm have those] .

 

now this doesnt mean that cultists dont have a place in our lists . being walking cover , bubble wraping havocks or tanks , being an additional scoring unit are all good uses for them , but a cultists focused army sadly will not be a good one .

I agree that this will most likely be the best use of cultists, as a supplement to your normal units, distractions, overwatch fodder, and so on...there are quite a lot of uses for them, but sitting in the back controlling an objective all by themselves? They don't have the firepower or the staying power to do that unfortunately...

 

(Commissars don't make them fearless, they make them stubborn, and gives rerolls)

 

I agree.

 

Another thing you have to think about is there ability to actually inflict damage. They have a serious lack in the ability to deal with armored threats (granted you should have other units to make up for this) and terminators.

I feel like the list that Bearingtheword posted on page one would be quite formidable. But I would remove the dark apostles and give my CSM squads and Havocs the mark of vengeance or something.

 

But that's just me, and I'm just getting back into the hobby.

[Brother Ambroz]

My idea with cultists is to get the biggest unit you can and put a khorne lord in there with the new axe. I think they'd be good for holding up those smaller "elite" units like assault termies, pallies, WG, etc. Either the cultist champ can be sacrificed against the opposing sergeant and leave the lord to attack the squad or the lord can take on the sergeant. I think that's going to be my main use for these guys, holding up terminator deathstars.

[Smurfalypse]

I am not saying that they are the focal point of your army list, I am saying that they are a better choice than basic CSMs. Can 10 CSMs hold an objective better than 50 Cultists? That is my only issue, yeah they dont kill much (we have units that slide around, behind, and within them for the killy, they are a shield).

 

I keep writing up lists and am finding that my OTHER troop option as an undivided player does not stand up to the Cultists.

[the jeske]

Can 10 CSMs hold an objective better than 50 Cultists

yes . fewer die in hth or from shoting so it is harder to break csm then cultists and puting lords in to cultists units just to make them fearless and camp objective is waste of the points a lord costs . the dieing part is also very important because of first blood . a 20 man cultists squads is too close to dieing in a single turn [with cover] to be used.

[TheDarkApostle]

Idk, a MoN ramps their cost up by, what, 50%? At t4 bolters still autokill them on 4s, and they flee just as easily. A tac squad can still reliably shove them off an objective with a single turn of shooting or a round of bolt pistol fire and a charge.

Now lets do a little math-hammer shall we.

 

9 Space Marines + Sergeant (total 10)

Bolters, Bolt Pistols

160 pts

 

34 Cultists, Cultist Champion (total 35)

Autopistols, 2x Heavy Stubbers

160 pts

 

Now lets assume the Space Marines have somehow miraculously gotten within rapid-fire range of the Cultists without loosing any member to Heavy Stubber fire and they get salvo of rapid fire bolters of.

 

20 bolter shots (67% to hit)

13.4 hits (67% to wound)

8.978 wounds (assuming the objective is not in terrain giving them a cover save and they choose not to go to ground)

 

8.978 rounded up means 9 dead Cultists. Which is just enough to force a Morale Check. (25% of 35 is 8.75)

 

Assuming the Cultist Champion is still alive and well they have a Ld of 8, and a 67% chance to hold their ground.

 

Now let the Cultists return fire. (Blatantly assuming everyone is in range)

 

24 pistol shots (50% to hit)

12 hits (33% to wound)

4.29 wounds (33% to fail armor save)

1.4157 dead Marines

 

6 heavy stubber shots (50% to hit)

3 wounds (50% to wound)

1.5 wounds (33% to fail armor save)

0.495 dead Marines

 

for a 1.9107 dead Marines total, rounded up. Barely to little to force a Morale check on the Marines. Had the Cultists got to go first they would have killed 3 Marines on average and forced them to take a Morale check.

 

Now of course you can drop 7 Cultists and give all of them autoguns instead (total cost for the unit will then be 158 pts)

 

Which would give us on average 2.3463 dead Marines from the return salvo.

 

Not to poop on the parade but so much for "reliability" to dislodge them. <_<

 

TDA

[Vilicate]

Or the Marine player could just assault them and push them off the objective that way...he has a way better chance than just trying to shoot them off due to negative leadership modifiers.

 

That's the problem with cultists; getting broken and run down in CC.

 

I don't think it's a waste at all to throw a fearless character in a unit of cultists, rather, it's a good meat shield to make sure the character has models to LOS! to and then he provides the hitting power. Not to mention that he's fearless so it creates a huge tarpit with a nasty, nasty CC character in the middle.

 

The only cultists I'd have hanging around an objective by themselves are Plague Zombies, but they're tough in a different way.

[Brother Ambroz]

I don't think it's a waste at all to throw a fearless character in a unit of cultists, rather, it's a good meat shield to make sure the character has models to LOS! to and then he provides the hitting power. Not to mention that he's fearless so it creates a huge tarpit with a nasty, nasty CC character in the middle.

 

Yup that was my idea. I think it'd be a great tarpit. Notice I didn't say objective holding unit *ahem Jeske ahem*.

[Attomsk]

I the key is to not rely on cultists as a majority of your troop choices.

[Vilicate]

I the key is to not rely on cultists as a majority of your troop choices.

 

I'd rather say the key is not to rely solely on cultists themselves as troop choices. I'd say even as a majority of troops they'd be okay, as long as you're supporting them with the right characters/units.

[d@n]

your basically talking about playing an ork army with troops that are not as good as orks. a squad of missile laincher long fangs or lootas or anything else with a high rate of fire or lots of templates will run a squad of cultists of the table every turn im guessing.

 

p.s spaace wolves with saga of the warrior born and blood angel blender dreads are going to love you lol

[Brother Ambroz]

Well if they shoot the cultists that means they're not shooting at our fiends, havocs, termis, chosen.....whatever. If they don't have a lord in the unit then that's probably going to be their purpose. Draw attention/fire away from the important stuff and to bubble shooty stuff from melee.

[Smurfalypse]

your basically talking about playing an ork army with troops that are not as good as orks. a squad of missile laincher long fangs or lootas or anything else with a high rate of fire or lots of templates will run a squad of cultists of the table every turn im guessing.

 

p.s spaace wolves with saga of the warrior born and blood angel blender dreads are going to love you lol

 

If the Longfangs are shooting at my Cultists it is going to be a good day indeed.

 

You all are right though, I need something a little harder to take/hold an objective if need be. Gonna try it both ways in the new few weeks and see how I want to approach it all.

[Iron Sage]

your basically talking about playing an ork army with troops that are not as good as orks. a squad of missile laincher long fangs or lootas or anything else with a high rate of fire or lots of templates will run a squad of cultists of the table every turn im guessing.

 

p.s spaace wolves with saga of the warrior born and blood angel blender dreads are going to love you lol

 

If the Longfangs are shooting at my Cultists it is going to be a good day indeed.

 

You all are right though, I need something a little harder to take/hold an objective if need be. Gonna try it both ways in the new few weeks and see how I want to approach it all.

 

Just make sure you remember to model a pict recorder on one of those marines camping the rear objective! An objective marker with throne gelt, representing bets being made by the marines as to how the various cultists are going to die etc., would also be nice! :)

[Vilicate]

your basically talking about playing an ork army with troops that are not as good as orks. a squad of missile laincher long fangs or lootas or anything else with a high rate of fire or lots of templates will run a squad of cultists of the table every turn im guessing.

 

p.s spaace wolves with saga of the warrior born and blood angel blender dreads are going to love you lol

 

Why is said Space Wolf lord not fighting the character in a cultist unit?

 

Also, how is it any harder to kill cultists with either of the described units than regular chaos marines? Both are hit on 3's, and wounded on 2's (often) with no armor save. Rather have them killing those than my expensive marines...

[d@n]

Well if they shoot the cultists that means they're not shooting at our fiends, havocs, termis, chosen.....whatever. If they don't have a lord in the unit then that's probably going to be their purpose. Draw attention/fire away from the important stuff and to bubble shooty stuff from melee.

That may be the case but ork armys can have 3xlootas put out 135 shots with deff gunz . space marines can have 3 thunder fire cannons space wolves can have 3 packs of grey hunters putting out 16 missile launcher templates, for instance. all of those units are capable of breaking or even wipping out 6 units of cultists in 2 turns and they still have the rest of there army to deal with the tougher stuff. imo that is far more likely to happen.

 

the tactic being suggested is really what nid players do and maybe it will work, but saying that nids are not a top tear army are they?

[Smurfalypse]

your basically talking about playing an ork army with troops that are not as good as orks. a squad of missile laincher long fangs or lootas or anything else with a high rate of fire or lots of templates will run a squad of cultists of the table every turn im guessing.

 

p.s spaace wolves with saga of the warrior born and blood angel blender dreads are going to love you lol

 

If the Longfangs are shooting at my Cultists it is going to be a good day indeed.

 

You all are right though, I need something a little harder to take/hold an objective if need be. Gonna try it both ways in the new few weeks and see how I want to approach it all.

 

Just make sure you remember to model a pict recorder on one of those marines camping the rear objective! An objective marker with throne gelt, representing bets being made by the marines as to how the various cultists are going to die etc., would also be nice! :)

 

I place all objectives in my enemies deployment zone as close together as allowed by the rules. . .

So they have to huddle around said objectives, like a little girl scared of the dark!!!

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah but the turn they waste doing that gives us a turn to mow them down with 8 hades autocannon shots, get torn apart with 4-5 powerfist mauler attacks, vector striked by the hellchicken, charged by our FMC DPs...etc. We are a fast, very aggressive army. Cultists are for the most part bait. That's why they're so cheap.

[Smurfalypse]

Well if they shoot the cultists that means they're not shooting at our fiends, havocs, termis, chosen.....whatever. If they don't have a lord in the unit then that's probably going to be their purpose. Draw attention/fire away from the important stuff and to bubble shooty stuff from melee.

That may be the case but ork armys can have 3xlootas put out 135 shots with deff gunz . space marines can have 3 thunder fire cannons space wolves can have 3 packs of grey hunters putting out 16 missile launcher templates, for instance. all of those units are capable of breaking or even wipping out 6 units of cultists in 2 turns and they still have the rest of there army to deal with the tougher stuff. imo that is far more likely to happen.

 

the tactic being suggested is really what nid players do and maybe it will work, but saying that nids are not a top tear army are they?

 

Chaos is not a top tier codex either (yet, need game time before it is known for sure).

 

You are talking about things shooting at the Cultists for two full turns and not taking any damage in return. If they spend 1k points a turn shooting at 400pts of Cultists for two turns that is a HUGE win for me. Just sayin.

 

Also 2 turns is 40% of the game length (this obviously changes with random game length) assuming the game finishes at the end of turn 5.

[d@n]

Chaos is not a top tier codex either (yet, need game time before it is known for sure).

 

You are talking about things shooting at the Cultists for two full turns and not taking any damage in return. If they spend 1k points a turn shooting at 400pts of Cultists for two turns that is a HUGE win for me. Just sayin.

 

Also 2 turns is 40% of the game length (this obviously changes with random game length) assuming the game finishes at the end of turn 5.

 

that was an example of how easy it would be to render all your scoring units either dead of fleeing in a relatively short time using a few units, and remember your oponent still has the rest of his army to use aswell.

 

Yeah but the turn they waste doing that gives us a turn to mow them down with 8 hades autocannon shots, get torn apart with 4-5 powerfist mauler attacks, vector striked by the hellchicken, charged by our FMC DPs...etc. We are a fast, very aggressive army. Cultists are for the most part bait. That's why they're so cheap.

 

it dosnt work for nids and i dont believe its going to work for chaos, you can weaken all the ahrd stuff turn 1 and 2 wipe out all the cultist turn 3 and 4 and all the cultist have done is die and then you have no scoring units in most missions.

 

 

 

Why is said Space Wolf lord not fighting the character in a cultist unit?

 

Also, how is it any harder to kill cultists with either of the described units than regular chaos marines? Both are hit on 3's, and wounded on 2's (often) with no armor save. Rather have them killing those than my expensive marines...

 

if the space wolve lord is fighting the cult champ he's still getting an extra attack next turn as he is going to beat him most of the time so i dont see your point.

 

csm get armour saves against all the weapons i mentioned there tougher and harder to break in the descriptions i gave aswell.

[d@n]

Well if they shoot the cultists that means they're not shooting at our fiends, havocs, termis, chosen.....whatever. If they don't have a lord in the unit then that's probably going to be their purpose. Draw attention/fire away from the important stuff and to bubble shooty stuff from melee.

That may be the case but ork armys can have 3xlootas put out 135 shots with deff gunz . space marines can have 3 thunder fire cannons space wolves can have 3 packs of grey hunters putting out 16 missile launcher templates, for instance. all of those units are capable of breaking or even wipping out 6 units of cultists in 2 turns and they still have the rest of there army to deal with the tougher stuff. imo that is far more likely to happen.

 

the tactic being suggested is really what nid players do and maybe it will work, but saying that nids are not a top tear army are they?

 

Chaos is not a top tier codex either (yet, need game time before it is known for sure).

 

You are talking about things shooting at the Cultists for two full turns and not taking any damage in return. If they spend 1k points a turn shooting at 400pts of Cultists for two turns that is a HUGE win for me. Just sayin.

 

Also 2 turns is 40% of the game length (this obviously changes with random game length) assuming the game finishes at the end of turn 5.

your talking more like 600pts to take out all of there scoring units by themselves in 2 turn using maybe 2 or 3 units. take the lootas for instance, your ork player is still gonna have a ton of ork boyz dakka jets mega nobz battle wagons ect your space wolves player is still going to have grey hunters thunder wolves, rune priests drop pod terminators wielding combie weapons