Troop Choices

[Urauloth]

Not to poop on the parade but so much for "reliability" to dislodge them. <_<

 

Interesting! There should be a flamer in there too, though, really - tac squads get those free iirc. If they shoot their pistols and charge I imagine they stand a much better chance of pushing the cultists off the objective.

[Vilicate]

Why is said Space Wolf lord not fighting the character in a cultist unit?

 

Also, how is it any harder to kill cultists with either of the described units than regular chaos marines? Both are hit on 3's, and wounded on 2's (often) with no armor save. Rather have them killing those than my expensive marines...

 

if the space wolve lord is fighting the cult champ he's still getting an extra attack next turn as he is going to beat him most of the time so i dont see your point.

 

csm get armour saves against all the weapons i mentioned there tougher and harder to break in the descriptions i gave aswell.

 

In the description you posted above, as written:

 

p.s spaace wolves with saga of the warrior born and blood angel blender dreads are going to love you lol

 

Who doesn't give their Wolf Lord a weapon that ignores 3+ saves? And blood angels furioso dreads with blood talons are AP3.

 

In both of those examples, the CSM are just as easy to kill as the marines. Haven't seen a Wolf Lord yet with SotWB that wasn't on a thunderwolf.

 

So yeah, tying these units up with a cultist squad that costs 50-100% less for a turn or two seems like a deal in my book. And if you want them to break, just don't challenge and refuse if they do, and now you'll have free reign to shoot at the now freed lord or dread.

 

You examples are poor. Yes, I think that you should take the more durable marines as troop choices as well, but completely discounting cultists because they're easy to kill with some other units is folly. Marines going to ground in cover are only a little harder to kill than cultists, and I get three of them for every marine.

[Seahawk]

Also unlike IG we dont have access to ally in a cheap fearless giving HQ [sm have those] .

Is it that hard to get a daemonic Herald into the list? They're usually like half the price of a chaplain but still give Fearless. Plus then you get daemons to bolster your troops choices. If anything, it's incredibly EASIER to get a Fearless-giving HQ choice into the list, other than, y'know, the super cheap Chaos Lord...

[Brother Ambroz]

that was an example of how easy it would be to render all your scoring units either dead of fleeing in a relatively short time using a few units, and remember your oponent still has the rest of his army to use aswell.

 

it dosnt work for nids and i dont believe its going to work for chaos, you can weaken all the ahrd stuff turn 1 and 2 wipe out all the cultist turn 3 and 4 and all the cultist have done is die and then you have no scoring units in most missions.

 

if the space wolve lord is fighting the cult champ he's still getting an extra attack next turn as he is going to beat him most of the time so i dont see your point.

 

Ok for one, I'm not saying take all cultists. I'll almost always be taking a khornate lord so I'll have zerks. Anyways remind me, as my computer w/ my CSM "dex" and puppy dex are at home. How much do longfangs cost and how much do cultists cost? We will also have the rest of the army to use and if they use their longfangs on them, what's to stop all our vehicles that they should've been shooting at from destroying them? Seriously not trying to be an :cuss but having trouble following your logic.

 

Really comparing Nids to chaos? There are a few similarities I'll give you that but they don't go very far. How many vehicles do the nids have? How much shooting does their most competitive build have?

 

He means with the wolf lord that that is a whole turn the wolf lord spent killing a 5 point character or he's talking about a chaos lord inside the cultist unit providing them fearless and using the cultists as a meatshield.

 

your talking more like 600pts to take out all of there scoring units by themselves in 2 turn using maybe 2 or 3 units. take the lootas for instance, your ork player is still gonna have a ton of ork boyz dakka jets mega nobz battle wagons ect your space wolves player is still going to have grey hunters thunder wolves, rune priests drop pod terminators wielding combie weapons

 

You could concievably fit that many cultists into a 1000-1250 game. First of all, how many of the lootas are actually going to hit? Whenever I face them, they maybe hit with 4-5 shots. That's the chaos player's job is to be able to counter each of them with some units behind the cultist mobs.

[Smurfalypse]

Also unlike IG we dont have access to ally in a cheap fearless giving HQ [sm have those] .

Is it that hard to get a daemonic Herald into the list? They're usually like half the price of a chaplain but still give Fearless. Plus then you get daemons to bolster your troops choices. If anything, it's incredibly EASIER to get a Fearless-giving HQ choice into the list, other than, y'know, the super cheap Chaos Lord...

 

I almost always take Daemon allies and for whatever reason it didnt dawn on me to take a herald HQ from them, I usualy do but I stick him on a mount of some sort. This is cheaper and provides a bonus to another unit, which I am all about.

 

Thanks a ton dude, you literally solved something I wasnt sure about.

[d@n]

Why is said Space Wolf lord not fighting the character in a cultist unit?

 

Also, how is it any harder to kill cultists with either of the described units than regular chaos marines? Both are hit on 3's, and wounded on 2's (often) with no armor save. Rather have them killing those than my expensive marines...

 

if the space wolve lord is fighting the cult champ he's still getting an extra attack next turn as he is going to beat him most of the time so i dont see your point.

 

csm get armour saves against all the weapons i mentioned there tougher and harder to break in the descriptions i gave aswell.

 

In the description you posted above, as written:

 

p.s spaace wolves with saga of the warrior born and blood angel blender dreads are going to love you lol

 

Who doesn't give their Wolf Lord a weapon that ignores 3+ saves? And blood angels furioso dreads with blood talons are AP3.

 

In both of those examples, the CSM are just as easy to kill as the marines. Haven't seen a Wolf Lord yet with SotWB that wasn't on a thunderwolf.

 

So yeah, tying these units up with a cultist squad that costs 50-100% less for a turn or two seems like a deal in my book. And if you want them to break, just don't challenge and refuse if they do, and now you'll have free reign to shoot at the now freed lord or dread.

 

You examples are poor. Yes, I think that you should take the more durable marines as troop choices as well, but completely discounting cultists because they're easy to kill with some other units is folly. Marines going to ground in cover are only a little harder to kill than cultists, and I get three of them for every marine.

the wolf lord and blender dred get more attacks the more they kill, that was my point. having large units of soft troops is just feeding them attack unlike tougher troops with a higher ws and less lower unit sizes

[Iron Father Ferrum]

A single Whirlwind or Thunderfire will kill competely or run off a Cultist blob with one round of shooting, and both ignore cover saves so not even an Aegis Line will save them. Also, the IG have artillery that can similarly wipe a blob and still deny cover saves.

 

I think Cultists will work as ancillary units for tarpitting or bubble-wrap, but as a general combat unit or for employment as a standard Troop squad? They'll be worthless.

[d@n]

that was an example of how easy it would be to render all your scoring units either dead of fleeing in a relatively short time using a few units, and remember your oponent still has the rest of his army to use aswell.

 

it dosnt work for nids and i dont believe its going to work for chaos, you can weaken all the ahrd stuff turn 1 and 2 wipe out all the cultist turn 3 and 4 and all the cultist have done is die and then you have no scoring units in most missions.

 

if the space wolve lord is fighting the cult champ he's still getting an extra attack next turn as he is going to beat him most of the time so i dont see your point.

 

Ok for one, I'm not saying take all cultists. I'll almost always be taking a khornate lord so I'll have zerks. Anyways remind me, as my computer w/ my CSM "dex" and puppy dex are at home. How much do longfangs cost and how much do cultists cost? We will also have the rest of the army to use and if they use their longfangs on them, what's to stop all our vehicles that they should've been shooting at from destroying them? Seriously not trying to be an :lol: but having trouble following your logic.

 

Really comparing Nids to chaos? There are a few similarities I'll give you that but they don't go very far. How many vehicles do the nids have? How much shooting does their most competitive build have?

 

He means with the wolf lord that that is a whole turn the wolf lord spent killing a 5 point character or he's talking about a chaos lord inside the cultist unit providing them fearless and using the cultists as a meatshield.

 

your talking more like 600pts to take out all of there scoring units by themselves in 2 turn using maybe 2 or 3 units. take the lootas for instance, your ork player is still gonna have a ton of ork boyz dakka jets mega nobz battle wagons ect your space wolves player is still going to have grey hunters thunder wolves, rune priests drop pod terminators wielding combie weapons

 

You could concievably fit that many cultists into a 1000-1250 game. First of all, how many of the lootas are actually going to hit? Whenever I face them, they maybe hit with 4-5 shots. That's the chaos player's job is to be able to counter each of them with some units behind the cultist mobs.

long fangs with missile launchers are 140pt for a full squad. lootas put out about 15-45 shots a unit for a little over 200pts about a third of your shots are going to hit with lootas and at strength 7 most of them are going to wound.

 

the nid thing was about tactics. nids have big monsterous creatures rather then defilers or chosen or whatever as there hammers and loads of little critter. basically the same tactic as you were suggesting.

 

putting a lord in with cult troops may work but seems a bit of a waste of the lord imo.

 

i agree that only taking cultists as troops is a bad idea, even if you take 6 units. thats my whole point but the topic of this thread is only taking cultists as troops.

 

A single Whirlwind or Thunderfire will kill competely or run off a Cultist blob with one round of shooting, and both ignore cover saves so not even an Aegis Line will save them. Also, the IG have artillery that can similarly wipe a blob and still deny cover saves.

 

I think Cultists will work as ancillary units for tarpitting or bubble-wrap, but as a general combat unit or for employment as a standard Troop squad? They'll be worthless.

my point exactly!

[Vesper]

Wolf Lord ? Khorne DP with Axe of Blinding Fury.

No more Wolf Lord.

 

Regular CSM are still really central to the CSM army. Making a fun all cultist list might be cool, but that doesn't help winning against OTT armies. They are a good cheap shield that can score, and we always needed affordable suicidal units to throw on scary stuff. We now have it.

[TheDarkApostle]

Not to poop on the parade but so much for "reliability" to dislodge them. :lol:

 

Interesting! There should be a flamer in there too, though, really - tac squads get those free iirc. If they shoot their pistols and charge I imagine they stand a much better chance of pushing the cultists off the objective.

Well, neither of the units were in an optimal situation.

 

I think the Cultists would do quite a bit better if given flamers instead of stubbers to start with.

 

And if keeping the stubbers (who are range 36 mind you) the chance of them not killing a marine or three while they advance to get within 12" is ridiculous.

 

TDA

[Vilicate]

A single Whirlwind or Thunderfire will kill competely or run off a Cultist blob with one round of shooting, and both ignore cover saves so not even an Aegis Line will save them. Also, the IG have artillery that can similarly wipe a blob and still deny cover saves.

 

I think Cultists will work as ancillary units for tarpitting or bubble-wrap, but as a general combat unit or for employment as a standard Troop squad? They'll be worthless.

 

That's an asinine statement. If you're spacing your models out, a whirlwind isn't going to hit more than 4-5 of them, and if it's ignoring cover than it's only wounding on 3+. The thunderfire cannon is only going to hit 1-2 every shot anyway.

 

Besides, when was the last time you actually saw a whirlwind? The thunderfire cannon is a legitimate threat to everything, and those should be high on your target priority list anyway. It's only got one or two wounds.

 

It's a neat idea that one large blast is going to kill 30 models, but only if they're in a ball and they hit said ball with direct shot. And then, if you're balling up your infantry with large blasts or thunderfire cannons around, you deserve to lose anyway.

[Urdokadin]

What if you went with the 6 full cultist squads and then allied in some IG platoons to hold the backfield? Put an apostle in one of the blobs, maybe take Huron to infiltrate/outflank some of them. Couple that with al'rahem's ability and you can attack from multiple board edges.

Get an aegis defense line for that guard blob to hide behind. Maybe a basilisk squadron and some havoks with flakk missiles. Just the sheer number of bodies you can field is daunting, 210 cultists for only about 600 points is hideous to deal with.

[Smurfalypse]

A single Whirlwind or Thunderfire will kill competely or run off a Cultist blob with one round of shooting, and both ignore cover saves so not even an Aegis Line will save them. Also, the IG have artillery that can similarly wipe a blob and still deny cover saves.

 

I think Cultists will work as ancillary units for tarpitting or bubble-wrap, but as a general combat unit or for employment as a standard Troop squad? They'll be worthless.

 

That's an asinine statement. If you're spacing your models out, a whirlwind isn't going to hit more than 4-5 of them, and if it's ignoring cover than it's only wounding on 3+. The thunderfire cannon is only going to hit 1-2 every shot anyway.

 

Besides, when was the last time you actually saw a whirlwind? The thunderfire cannon is a legitimate threat to everything, and those should be high on your target priority list anyway. It's only got one or two wounds.

 

It's a neat idea that one large blast is going to kill 30 models, but only if they're in a ball and they hit said ball with direct shot. And then, if you're balling up your infantry with large blasts or thunderfire cannons around, you deserve to lose anyway.

 

I agree with you 100%.

 

I am done with this thread, we will all see in the coming weeks what works and what doesn't.

[Rik Riorik]

What if you went with the 6 full cultist squads and then allied in some IG platoons to hold the backfield? Put an apostle in one of the blobs, maybe take Huron to infiltrate/outflank some of them. Couple that with al'rahem's ability and you can attack from multiple board edges.

Get an aegis defense line for that guard blob to hide behind. Maybe a basilisk squadron and some havoks with flakk missiles. Just the sheer number of bodies you can field is daunting, 210 cultists for only about 600 points is hideous to deal with.

 

Wouldn't that be more like 900-1000pts for 210 cultists?

 

I am definetly going to include a big squad or two of them. With the cost of them it would feel like a waste to not include at least one good sized unit.

[Urdokadin]

Nevermind, math fail.:) what I get for doing army lists in my head while at work.