Kol Saresk Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Like the title says, this just hit me like a slap to the face with a motorcycle helmet that had been filled with concrete. I remember someone mentioned that the Dark Apostles seemed more like "Spiky Chaplains" than proper Apostles. Well, I was reading through their Codex entry and it hit me, they are Spiky Chaplains! Well, they might as well be. Now, I don't mean to spoil the mood or rain on parades. After all, we do have a new Codex and I already know of one person who had a successful match using it against the Grey Knights, and everyone does seem to think it is viable. But anyway, well look for yourselves. Dark Apostle - Chaplain Warpsmith - Techmarine Chaos Lord - Space Marine Commander Sorcerer - Librarian Warp Talons - Veteran Assault Squad Chosen - Sternguard Termies - Termies Mutilators - Think of a special Elite unit, insert here. And well, the list goes on. But basically, we have become more like "Spikey Marines" than anyone has realized. Yes, the minis don't show this. But the actual units, their rules and even their fluff, show the Chaos Space Marines to now be a twisted reflection of the Loyalist Space Marines. I mean, wow. Personally, I still like the Codex. This thing doesn't bother me at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Yep, we are always going to be a twisted version of the Loyalists, because that is who we were and where this part of our story began. Dogs and Wolves, they are different but you can see the ancestry followed the same path at some point in time. You can however take most codexs and apply the same logic (check out Necron), there are minor differences but everyone has their role to fill and the units that fill a particular role will look similar to other units that fill that same role for their codex. You can take every marine codex and definitely see it, except for a few minor differences. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 But basically, we have become more like "Spikey Marines" than anyone has realized. Yes, the minis don't show this. But the actual units, their rules and even their fluff, show the Chaos Space Marines to now be a twisted reflection of the Loyalist Space Marines. I... that's... that's why they are called "Chaos Space Marines". They once were loyal Space Marines. Then they turned to Chaos. Maybe I am being too flippant here. But then I do still remember the 1st Edition Chaos lists, where all Legions still had Chaplains and Medics. They were removed in 2nd Edition, and Chaplains were only brought back in 3rd Edition for the Word Bearers. But, yes, Chaos Space Marines are essentially Space Marines with warped armour, more archaic weapons, and daemons. What really made the Chaos force more like loyalists was the inclusion of Assault squads. In 2nd Edition, Chaos Marines had no jump pack units, because jump packs had been too rare during the Crsade/Heresy era. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 No, no, you're missing it. It's more to do with the Codex and rules rather than the fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Some things are remarkably similar this is true. But..... Chosen - Definitely not like sternguard, at least not in the new codex. Sternguard are ranged veterans. If anything our (new) chosen are melee specialists. Muts and Oblits are definitely not. Reasoning why is because of how they can morph their weapons. Name one other unit in the whole game that can do that. Termies aren't really like most SM counterparts. They're not CC specialists like assault termis. They're not ranged support like "regular" termies. The are a mix of both and a few other things, kinda like that retarded codex.....what was it called again...had something to do with dogs if I remember correctly... Legatus, no offense but that's all old fluff. Every edition we change and I believe this edition they're going for something to set us apart from just being spiky versions of loyalists. Example, daemon engines or princes. Cultists. Or even the damn hellchicken. I'm not trying to be an :) hole here but that just really irked me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 No, no, you're missing it. It's more to do with the Codex and rules rather than the fluff. Ah, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I haven't gotten a copy yet. (I am considering to order an english copy from GW UK...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Did you know that back in the 2nd edition Codex Chaos didn't have Powerswords? They had Axes and Mauls though. Plasma Guns were different than Loyalist versions which had to recharge every other turn after they fired. Also that was the book that gave Chaos Combi bolters instead of Storm Bolters. Lots of things made Chaos Different than Loyalists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Some things are remarkably similar this is true. But..... Chosen - Definitely not like sternguard, at least not in the new codex. Sternguard are ranged veterans. If anything our (new) chosen are melee specialists. Muts and Oblits are definitely not. Reasoning why is because of how they can morph their weapons. Name one other unit in the whole game that can do that. Termies aren't really like most SM counterparts. They're not CC specialists like assault termis. They're not ranged support like "regular" termies. The are a mix of both and a few other things, kinda like that retarded codex.....what was it called again...had something to do with dogs if I remember correctly... Legatus, no offense but that's all old fluff. Every edition we change and I believe this edition they're going for something to set us apart from just being spiky versions of loyalists. Example, daemon engines or princes. Cultists. Or even the damn hellchicken. I'm not trying to be an :) hole here but that just really irked me. Yeah, I was going more for how we seemed to be lining up with the Loyalists and having our version of theirs. Like someone said, the Techmarines have the Build-up Defenses rule I believe? And the Warpsmiths have the Shatter Defenses rule. It just seemed like we actually did get a "Spikey" version of the lOyalist lists but with enough differences to actually make it different in the right way and in a way that it is the Chaos Marine List that it should(maybe shouldn't? future will tell) be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Name one other unit in the whole game that can do that. Grey knight space orangutans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Sorry ghey what? Digital weapons are one thing (not to mention only 3 weapon options) but morphing their weapons into something else? Not to mention it's a ward dex.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Well, no other unit can carry so many weapons. But there are units that supposedly(aka what I hear so this is completely speculative and therefore can be wrong) have just as much potential and options. Just not within the game itself, only in the listbuilding. I believe Sternguard have access to different types of ammo yes? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Like the title says, this just hit me like a slap to the face with a motorcycle helmet that had been filled with concrete. I remember someone mentioned that the Dark Apostles seemed more like "Spiky Chaplains" than proper Apostles. Well, I was reading through their Codex entry and it hit me, they are Spiky Chaplains! Well, they might as well be. Now, I don't mean to spoil the mood or rain on parades. After all, we do have a new Codex and I already know of one person who had a successful match using it against the Grey Knights, and everyone does seem to think it is viable. But anyway, well look for yourselves. Dark Apostle - Chaplain Warpsmith - Techmarine Chaos Lord - Space Marine Commander Sorcerer - Librarian Warp Talons - Veteran Assault Squad Chosen - Sternguard Termies - Termies Mutilators - Think of a special Elite unit, insert here. And well, the list goes on. But basically, we have become more like "Spikey Marines" than anyone has realized. Yes, the minis don't show this. But the actual units, their rules and even their fluff, show the Chaos Space Marines to now be a twisted reflection of the Loyalist Space Marines. I mean, wow. Personally, I still like the Codex. This thing doesn't bother me at all. Why is this an issue or even a "problem"? I don`t understand. For me it`s obvious that they are dark mirrors. I find it immensly fitting. I cannot fathom how this should be "rain on a parade". Dark Mechanicum is obviously the dark mirror of the mechanicum. We all know that. Terminators are terminators, but our are different (marks and icons), so again, dark mirror. Chaplain vs Apostle. At least ours doesnt have to use that death mask and hide his face all the time. Seems kind of tedious that :P Chosen are way more awesome (fluff and model-wise) than Sternguard, but yes, obviously a dark mirror again. Works a bit differently though. Same with warp talons. You have to remember that this is Codex Chaos Space Marines. Wouldn`t it have been absurd it it had no marines in it??? I dont get the issue. The aestetichs are completly different and the codex will certainly play differently to a loyalist codex ;) Besides, our cause is just! Never forget that! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Why is this an issue or even a "problem"? I don`t understand. For me it`s obvious that they are dark mirrors. I find it immensly fitting. I cannot fathom how this should be "rain on a parade". Dark Mechanicum is obviously the dark mirror of the mechanicum. We all know that. Terminators are terminators, but our are different (marks and icons), so again, dark mirror. Chaplain vs Apostle. At least ours doesnt have to use that death mask and hide his face all the time. Seems kind of tedious that :PChosen are way more awesome (fluff and model-wise) than Sternguard, but yes, obviously a dark mirror again. Works a bit differently though. Same with warp talons. You have to remember that this is Codex Chaos Space Marines. Wouldn`t it have been absurd it it had no marines in it??? I dont get the issue. The aestetichs are completly different and the codex will certainly play differently to a loyalist codex :P Besides, our cause is just! Never forget that! ;) I think the OP is cool with that, he is in fact pointing that the C:CSM is mirroring the C:SM too much, for a bunch of renegades that don't give a damn about the Codex Astartes organization. Valid point, but I like it that way ;) If they made CSMs too far from their loyal counterparts, they would be just some other guys in PA, instead of the tragic fallen heroes of mankind :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Yeah it's not that it's a problem. Not for me anyways. I just thought that it was funny that there were people who were going "We're no longer Spiky Marines!" And yet in a way, this is the closest we've ever been to being "Spiky Marines". We have the organization, the units and the rules. Yes, there is a big difference between both Codices. Enough to fully separate one from the other. It's like looking at a Harley and Honda. They are similar in design, but different in every way that counts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Schrecke Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 If they made CSMs too far from their loyal counterparts, they would be just some other guys in PA, instead of the tragic fallen heroes of mankind :( I agree so much with this. It's easy to learn how to fight, but it is difficult to learn how to fight new ways. I disagree with the OP. I feel like most CSM units have a deeper level of customization than SM units. Also the fact that with certain icons in the right place most of the elite choices can become troop choices. I agree that there are a good deal of parallels but nothing is equal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Yeah it's not that it's a problem. Not for me anyways. I just thought that it was funny that there were people who were going "We're no longer Spiky Marines!" And yet in a way, this is the closest we've ever been to being "Spiky Marines". We have the organization, the units and the rules. Yes, there is a big difference between both Codices. Enough to fully separate one from the other. It's like looking at a Harley and Honda. They are similar in design, but different in every way that counts. This is true. But I think our "Spiky marines" (honestly never liked that expression) are cooler than before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I like how the new codex differentiate from the customization options from regular SMs regarding wargear (fluffy, since CSMs are in an aspect more limited, fluffwise) but gives us supernatural options for almost all units in compensation (what illustrate the Dark Powers influence, very fluffy). By the older dex, seemed more like the CSMs only lost by giving their backs to mankind :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 No, no, you're missing it. It's more to do with the Codex and rules rather than the fluff. its worse . a gold fish chaos builds lord sorc 3xcsm 2xcultits aegis 3xhavocks SW lord sor.. I mean RP 3xGH IG ally aegis 3xlong fangs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262472-epiphany-of-irony/#findComment-3197571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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