Some Questions I Wish I'd Asked...

[Messor]

So first a little background; my first exposure to B&C is a bit of a story. I started 40k with Tau, after discovering games-workshop through FB and Lizardmen. By then I was well acquainted with DIY army building, but never really met a warhammer/hobby community until Tau. It was pretty easy stuff anyway. Short history, small collection of planets, just pick your Sphere and develop a Sept and you're off. Back then I had thoughts about going into other armies, mostly because I loved everyone's model range (except Orks, I'm prejudiced against Orks). Marines became my second choice after a couple battle against my friend's Black Shamrocks, and several instances of "Those freaking saves!" So I started probing about to see where it would take me. The first thing I found in the first web search was The Octaguide. It was huge, and daunting, and I backed right off from Marines for a while, but I still got the codex and a Tactical Squad "just to paint". Fast forward a year or two I found the Octaguide and the B&C again. I checked out the Liber often, I think it might have been more fast paced back then. It got me started working on my own Chapter which eventually (see:another year or two) evolved into the Alpha Hounds.

I haven't been an active member of the B&C for long, but looking back at what I have done I'm glad there are such awesome members and resources to help make all these ideas work. Still, there are some things that've nagged at me as I've gone on. I like to ask questions, and while these things are hinted at in the Octaguide and DIY Guide, I feel like new folks could benefit from having them expounded on, though all I know for sure is that I could .

First, where is the line between an Index Astartes and an Index Traitoris?

If you ask me, its can be a mighty fine line, and to be honest I haven't seen a lot of Chapter's toeing it, but it happens. Who decides? Is IA a self declaration, or maybe a Legio Label? Is a Chapter not IT until the Imperium declares Excommunicatus? Does the Imperium concern itself if, say, a Chapter is kidnapping those it would recruit, or has assassinated an apparently stable/loyal lord or governor for their own reasons? I think this can be answered on more than a case by case basis, but I don't have nearly the fluff background to back up that hypothesis, so "Ask the experts!"

When has a theme gone too far or Is it possible to go all the way with a theme, and not be overboard?

I have a lot of personal experience with this one, having two armies based on a favorite game franchise. I'm pretty easy going myself, but Liberites have let me know in both cases when the army just seemed too much like its source of inspiration. Within the 40kverse, I can certainly see the problem with that, like an army that walks, talks, and Red Thirsts like Blood Angels, but 'isn't' Blood Angels, but is their really such a line when reaching outside the grimdark universe(except to protect the bubble of suspended disbelief)? For example, Hawk/Raptor themed Chapter, with a gene-seed defect that gives them bird of prey eyes, but hardens their nails into long talons? Too much, or just right? When is it too far? That example leads me to my next question:

What are sources of mutation?

This leans more towards making something comprehensive to give people ideas besides the Cursed Founding or the Warp. Those aren't the only options, right? The example above, easily enough to relate to individual marine organs, but as easy to justify? Everyone knows not to try to add organs, but how often are attempts made to fix organs? Will a Chapter's apothecaries dabble in trying to breed out/restore mutated or defective organs, or is it the sole province of the AdMech(I've attributed mutations in the Alpha Hounds to tampering by Apothecaries)? Every successor has a chance to suffer a mutation, but what are the odds that these Hawk's are mutated like...hawks? And then a successor of a successor would have an even higher chance of exhibiting gene-seed anomalies. Surely for someone with their heart set on an Ultramines successor with a hawk-like mutation, there's a way for that stable gene-seed to yield?

What are a loyalist's sources for devotion?

Marines approach religion differently from the Imperium, and just as often from each other. What, besides the obvious Emperor/Primarch, can a Chapter venerate without being considered heretical (by a majority)? An animal? Their homeworld? Their Primarch's homeworld? What incarnations of the Emperor might they worship? Could/Would a Chapter venerate the Omnissiah? If it's common knowledge that Marines don't believe or worship the Emperor as a God, and that's not heretical enough for excommunicatus, then why would anything they worship/revere short of chaos itself be any more blasphemous?

I kinda wish I'd thought to ask these before ever copy-pasting an IA template; I'm the kind of guy who likes to have the boundaries in place, even though I might not ever go near them. Hopefully, though, we can hash out some answers for this stuff? At the very least I hope its helpful to those just starting on IA/ITs of their own, and I look forward to applying your insights to my articles present and future!

[Messor]

Another question occurred to me the other day at work:

 

DIYs and STCs, how to get them?

Most times a DIY is a successor, plain and simple, and uses the rules of the corresponding Chapter, but not always. Sometimes a Chapter will be a White Scars successor in its fluff, but play as Dark Angels. So the author wants to use Mortis Dreadnought, what fluff can accommodate this? Its a massive galaxy, could another STC copy be recovered? What other ways could a Chapter use 'exclusive' STCs? Can they be copied? Can they be stolen(in the case of a renegade)?

[Kristoff]

Sometimes a Chapter will be a White Scars successor in its fluff, but play as Dark Angels. So the author wants to use Mortis Dreadnought, what fluff can accommodate this?

How long ago was the chapter created? While a certain level of a chapter's character comes from their Primarch, a lot of the traditions of a chapter get changed by experience and the character of the peoples they induct. The Mongolish type people of the White Scars home planet have a fear of being entombed alive, so that's why they don't field Dreadnoughts. A White Scar successor that is brought up on a world more like the Japanese, would venerate their ancestors and enjoy fighting by their side in battle and would welcome Dreadnoughts.

 

As for why would they play as Dark Angels, simple. While their Geneseed came from the Great Khan, their training and first commanders were seconded from the sons of the Lion, influencing their organization and combat style, at least at first. This is not terribly uncommon. White Scar geneseed is not as pure as Dark Angel, but the White Scars are trusted more.

[Messor]

How long ago was the chapter created? While a certain level of a chapter's character comes from their Primarch, a lot of the traditions of a chapter get changed by experience and the character of the peoples they induct. The Mongolish type people of the White Scars home planet have a fear of being entombed alive, so that's why they don't field Dreadnoughts. A White Scar successor that is brought up on a world more like the Japanese, would venerate their ancestors and enjoy fighting by their side in battle and would welcome Dreadnoughts.

 

As for why would they play as Dark Angels, simple. While their Geneseed came from the Great Khan, their training and first commanders were seconded from the sons of the Lion, influencing their organization and combat style, at least at first. This is not terribly uncommon. White Scar geneseed is not as pure as Dark Angel, but the White Scars are trusted more.

 

That's a really nice, logical flow, Kristoff. I'd ask you though, isn't the Mortis Dreadnought unique to Dark Angels? How can we account for a non-successor having a Chapter/lineage specific vehicle, like the Mortis, or the Stormraven?

[Phoros]

Equipment could be exchanged in a ritual, or lost and then recovered by another chapter, or duplicated using existing technology - the Dark Angels have existed for 10,000 years, and a lot could have happened in that time.

 

On topic:

When has a theme gone too far or Is it possible to go all the way with a theme, and not be overboard?

I have a lot of personal experience with this one, having two armies based on a favorite game franchise. I'm pretty easy going myself, but Liberites have let me know in both cases when the army just seemed too much like its source of inspiration. Within the 40kverse, I can certainly see the problem with that, like an army that walks, talks, and Red Thirsts like Blood Angels, but 'isn't' Blood Angels, but is their really such a line when reaching outside the grimdark universe(except to protect the bubble of suspended disbelief)? For example, Hawk/Raptor themed Chapter, with a gene-seed defect that gives them bird of prey eyes, but hardens their nails into long talons? Too much, or just right?

 

I've had a lot of trouble with this. The Fire Lords, who I'm trying to create a theme for, I'm basing on the Huns, but how do I do this? I don't want them to be too much like the White Scars, I don't want them to be completely savage, and I don't want to erase the fire/incendiary bombardment/planetary assault element of them either. Additionally, the Huns didn't have any historians, which makes it difficult to get the theme across.

[Jacobius]

Firstly, my understanding of STCs is that an original STC is a rare and powerful thing that not only may provide new technology but is a holy relic to the AdMech. It seems that copies of some sort can be made or we would never have a new forgeworld. See also here.

 

As far as the rest of it goes, there's really only two rules I can think of:

 

1. Is it in direct contradiction to well established fluff? i.e. your 3rd founding Chapter is not going to have been founded to combat Tyranids.

 

2. Does it break my suspension of disbelief? This is related to the first rule but also extends to things like "My marine chapter has THE best equipment AND they have a genetic mutation that makes them 10 feet tall AND they can lift two tanks each AND they are all psykers AND they have claws and fangs and wings."

 

Aside from the above, you can have all sorts of zany things as long as they are well explained. I know it can be hard to see what makes sense and what doesn't, what you've explained well and what you haven't after you've been staring for hours at the same words but that's what the Liber is for ;)

 

My 2 cents.

 

-J-

[Jacobius]

I've just realized that you may have wanted some specific answers to the above so here's my shot at it.

 

Chapter recruits from feral world where tribesmen worship animal totems, inspired by the imperial Aquila, they equate the emperor with the eagle. Due to their devotion to the emperor and desire to model themselves on him, over time the apothecaries allow slight mutations to enter the geneseed giving the marines hardened talons and eagle vision. Despite their obvious mutations, their devotion and loyalty to the emperor cannot be questioned so they are tolerated...for now...

 

Imagine that a little more fleshed out, how does it work for you?

 

-J-

[Messor]

Equipment could be exchanged in a ritual, or lost and then recovered by another chapter, or duplicated using existing technology - the Dark Angels have existed for 10,000 years, and a lot could have happened in that time.

 

I've had a lot of trouble with this. The Fire Lords, who I'm trying to create a theme for, I'm basing on the Huns, but how do I do this? I don't want them to be too much like the White Scars, I don't want them to be completely savage, and I don't want to erase the fire/incendiary bombardment/planetary assault element of them either. Additionally, the Huns didn't have any historians, which makes it difficult to get the theme across.

 

Ok, between you and Jacobius I can get on board with STC's changing hands a little more often than sources let on.

 

That seems like really tough theme situation. When dealing with a cultural theme, I think its harder to go over the top/all around easier to believe. Perhaps unlike the White Scars who reflect the rapidity of Mongol warfare with fast battlefield units, the Hun-themed Fire Lords display their ferocity with suddenness of orbital strikes. I don't think you should have to lose any of your flame imagery to portray the Huns. Instead of being a weakness, their lack of historians can be a thematic strength: The Fire Lords might keep little to no history, leaving some details unclear (probably mostly battle honors, but if they're older I guess it could be anything).

 

Firstly, my understanding of STCs is that an original STC is a rare and powerful thing that not only may provide new technology but is a holy relic to the AdMech. It seems that copies of some sort can be made or we would never have a new forgeworld. See also here.

 

As far as the rest of it goes, there's really only two rules I can think of:

 

1. Is it in direct contradiction to well established fluff? i.e. your 3rd founding Chapter is not going to have been founded to combat Tyranids.

 

2. Does it break my suspension of disbelief? This is related to the first rule but also extends to things like "My marine chapter has THE best equipment AND they have a genetic mutation that makes them 10 feet tall AND they can lift two tanks each AND they are all psykers AND they have claws and fangs and wings."

 

Aside from the above, you can have all sorts of zany things as long as they are well explained. I know it can be hard to see what makes sense and what doesn't, what you've explained well and what you haven't after you've been staring for hours at the same words but that's what the Liber is for ;)

 

My 2 cents.

 

-J-

 

Those are rules I'm perfectly happy to live by, Jacobius, or I should say, that I already try to go by.

 

I wasn't necessarily going for specific answers, more trying to stimulate discussion. Sadly that really was the best example I could think of off the top of my head XD. You reasoned it out well though. Are there sources/precedents for Apothecaries guiding mutations that way? I wasn't aware that they could be so influential on the gene-seed, but that sure would accommodate gene-seed diversity combined with the other common sources of mutation. Heh, now I'd almost like to see this bird of prey Chapter.

[Ace Debonair]

When has a theme gone too far or Is it possible to go all the way with a theme, and not be overboard?

I have a lot of personal experience with this one, having two armies based on a favorite game franchise. I'm pretty easy going myself, but Liberites have let me know in both cases when the army just seemed too much like its source of inspiration. Within the 40kverse, I can certainly see the problem with that, like an army that walks, talks, and Red Thirsts like Blood Angels, but 'isn't' Blood Angels, but is their really such a line when reaching outside the grimdark universe(except to protect the bubble of suspended disbelief)? For example, Hawk/Raptor themed Chapter, with a gene-seed defect that gives them bird of prey eyes, but hardens their nails into long talons? Too much, or just right? When is it too far?

 

Overtheming is a tricky one to pin down. Some people like their themes a lot more subtle than others. But I'll give an example for you, to illustrate the differences:

 

Themed:

This Chapter is driven, determined, and intensely honourable. They maintain a formal, disciplined approach to all things, but shroud their actions in meticulous ritual. Every action is considered important - the act of cutting a xeno in half with a chainsword and a serf ritually cleaning the weapon afterwards are both given equal importance. They sometimes employ specially trained veterans as scouts to strike at key targets, preferring instead to forge new recruits in the fires of battle as early as possible.

 

Overthemed:

The Chapter has Shoguns instead of Captains. It is led by Grand Shogun Oda Nobunaga. They have katanas and follow a rigid, samurai-style disciplined approach to everything. They also have ninjas instead of scouts. There is gratuitous use of Japanese titles for companies just in case it hasn't been hammered home enough that these are Space Samurai. They also come from Space Japan.

 

 

The first is a summary imagining a Chapter drawing elements from Japanese culture, specifically the samurai. Admittedly it's not very good, but I'm in a hurry. :D

 

It's still better than the second, which is a summary trying to give 40k a Japan-transplant. :lol:

 

EDIT:

Missed out a word there.

[Phoros]

That seems like really tough theme situation. When dealing with a cultural theme, I think its harder to go over the top/all around easier to believe. Perhaps unlike the White Scars who reflect the rapidity of Mongol warfare with fast battlefield units, the Hun-themed Fire Lords display their ferocity with suddenness of orbital strikes. I don't think you should have to lose any of your flame imagery to portray the Huns. Instead of being a weakness, their lack of historians can be a thematic strength: The Fire Lords might keep little to no history, leaving some details unclear (probably mostly battle honors, but if they're older I guess it could be anything).

 

Ooh, and that's why their founding is specified as "unknown"! Excellent!

[War Angel]

Ace you make me wonder if I've over themed my own chapter...I think I'm safe. You're right on the money though.

 

 

I've always seen STC's as big car factory's with the robot arms. You push a button and arms start doing all the work. There also extreamly rare, and wouldn't be held in possession by a chapter, but "returned" to the mechanium. I say "returned", but I imagine that more often than not they can't be moved, so it's more of a "build a force here" kinda thing. Also, I've heard once or twice some one wanting to photo copy templates so they could mass produce their own (starship's, predators, ext) an STC is not a blueprint, it's a miniature forge of its own as I've always understood.

 

That being said, for dark angels to have copyrights on a spicific type of dreadnaught(which I think is greedy, selfish, and crapy writing by GW) that would mean that either

1. they have a deal with a forge to be the only ones getting them

Or more likely 2. Manufactory of the item is on such a small scale, and the forge is located near that chapter. They only arnt found elsewhere because the forge doesn't use the rescources to ship these out to dealers accross the galaxy.

 

Either if these could still allow for you to get one for another chapter. Maybe you did some heroic action for the forge, or like others said you found a damaged one on some lost battlefield, or it never made it to its destination. With the second option, the same things apply, or you just happened to be swinging by while they had one ready for pick up.

 

In the future, there's no such thing as exclusiveness, it's just a poor way of explaining why a non basic marine codex has something and another codex doesn't. There's a hundred ways to write around it, if these ideas don't suit you I could come up with more.

[Kristoff]

That being said, for dark angels to have copyrights on a spicific type of dreadnaught(which I think is greedy, selfish, and crapy writing by GW) that would mean that either

1. they have a deal with a forge to be the only ones getting them

Or more likely 2. Manufactory of the item is on such a small scale, and the forge is located near that chapter. They only arnt found elsewhere because the forge doesn't use the rescources to ship these out to dealers accross the galaxy.

*Looks at Blood Angels' Baals* Right....

[Leonaides]

Ace you make me wonder if I've over themed my own chapter...I think I'm safe. You're right on the money though.

 

 

I've always seen STC's as big car factory's with the robot arms. You push a button and arms start doing all the work. There also extreamly rare, and wouldn't be held in possession by a chapter, but "returned" to the mechanium. I say "returned", but I imagine that more often than not they can't be moved, so it's more of a "build a force here" kinda thing. Also, I've heard once or twice some one wanting to photo copy templates so they could mass produce their own (starship's, predators, ext) an STC is not a blueprint, it's a miniature forge of its own as I've always understood.

 

That being said, for dark angels to have copyrights on a spicific type of dreadnaught(which I think is greedy, selfish, and crapy writing by GW) that would mean that either

1. they have a deal with a forge to be the only ones getting them

Or more likely 2. Manufactory of the item is on such a small scale, and the forge is located near that chapter. They only arnt found elsewhere because the forge doesn't use the rescources to ship these out to dealers accross the galaxy.

 

Either if these could still allow for you to get one for another chapter. Maybe you did some heroic action for the forge, or like others said you found a damaged one on some lost battlefield, or it never made it to its destination. With the second option, the same things apply, or you just happened to be swinging by while they had one ready for pick up.

 

In the future, there's no such thing as exclusiveness, it's just a poor way of explaining why a non basic marine codex has something and another codex doesn't. There's a hundred ways to write around it, if these ideas don't suit you I could come up with more.

 

Or simply the owners of that particular construction pattern are holding onto the most difficult techniques/keeping them secret to maintain their relevance and protection from the wider Imperial machine - for example, if everywhere could produce Strigia-pattern Titan Megabolters (with a faster fire-rate than any other pattern) then the Forge-Masters of Strigia Forgeworld have less influence and power, their holy pattern is diminished by its commonplace nature and the Imperium has no reason to defend Strigia so well when apart from that STC the place is a worn out useless dump - they even have to ship in the raw materials to make the guns).

 

Or the Baal-pattern predator - won by the Blood Angels in the Crusade, costing them brothers, blood and fire in the winning. Why should they hand over that which they alone won, that which the Emperor and their Primarch allowed as spoils of war, to be kept and turned against their enemies?

 

Heck - why dont the Ultramarines pass around the Gauntlets of Ultramar to each second founding chapter in turn - a year each or something...

 

Should the Imperial Fists move out of the Phalanx (or the Dark Angels out of the Rock) so that the Ad Mech can study their engines and construction?

 

Why dont the Tau hand over all their high-tech guns to the Kroot to use instead of their more primative rifles?

 

For the Dark Angels to be the only ones with a Mortis pattern Dreadnought, maybe they are the only ones who know how to manufacture a particular firing/targeting matrix and ammo-storage system. Maybe other marine chapters dont want to have that pattern of dreadnought?

[Messor]

Glad to help, Phoros! Let us know what you get implemented!

 

Ace you make me wonder if I've over themed my own chapter...I think I'm safe. You're right on the money though.

 

I'd agree you're Chapter is well themed, ;)

 

I've always seen STC's as big car factory's with the robot arms. You push a button and arms start doing all the work. There also extreamly rare, and wouldn't be held in possession by a chapter, but "returned" to the mechanium. I say "returned", but I imagine that more often than not they can't be moved, so it's more of a "build a force here" kinda thing. Also, I've heard once or twice some one wanting to photo copy templates so they could mass produce their own (starship's, predators, ext) an STC is not a blueprint, it's a miniature forge of its own as I've always understood.

 

Same understanding. I'm sure the size and scope of STC makes the widespread use of some patterns difficult. It's nice to know others find the idea of such exclusivity a little too much.

 

That being said, for dark angels to have copyrights on a spicific type of dreadnaught(which I think is greedy, selfish, and crapy writing by GW) that would mean that either

1. they have a deal with a forge to be the only ones getting them

Or more likely 2. Manufactory of the item is on such a small scale, and the forge is located near that chapter. They only arnt found elsewhere because the forge doesn't use the rescources to ship these out to dealers accross the galaxy.

*Looks at Blood Angels' Baals* Right....

 

True, Kristoff, though there ought to be ways to spread the Baal goodness. If they can give it to their successors it can be acquired, even if only by stealing completed Predators (unless the BA provide STC copies to their successors, in which case I believe the STC itself could conceivably be stolen).

[Brother Captain Andrew]

While by no mean am I an expert, but 2 cents

 

First, where is the line between an Index Astartes and an Index Traitoris?

I think there are two lines that are "definitive". First is when the Imperium declares the chapter Excommunicate Traitoris once the imperium makes this move their is no argument the chapter is a traitor (index traitoris) regardless of their intentions. When that line is will depend on a few things. First is political clout, second founding chapters that have been around millenia get alot more leeway in their actions then a 26th chapter founding. Second, is if the conduct is covered by the codex, if the codex division of power is not violated the high lords usually leave the chapters alone as space marine independence is a hot button issue. Third is the severity of the action i.e. the killing a planetary governor versus unnecessary exterminatus.

 

The other line is the Chapter's declaration of itself as traitors just the bureaucracy hasn't done the paperwork doesn't mean that they aren't traitors.If your killing millions in sacrifice to khorne and the courier hasn't made it to terra your still a traitor ;)

 

 

When has a theme gone too far or Is it possible to go all the way with a theme, and not be overboard?

This is one of those personal issues that really only you can tell. I think that as long as you can provide solid reasons for each part of the theme your good. Why use a specific weapon, why is the chapter divergent, why does the chapter have specific rituals, etc. If you can answer these questions then your theme is good, the issue is when the answer is "cause its cool" too many times then the theme starts to fall apart.

 

What are sources of mutation?

The simplest is Admech experimentation (ala the cursed founding), however for an Ultra successor with perfect gene-seed the tampering would not be likely outside of the cursed founding or lost founding. There is also cultural and environment which could result in mutation (i.e. canis helix, Salamanders and Raven Guard skin color). Maybe they recruit from a tribe with a ritual of mixing their blood with animal blood or something similar.

 

What are a loyalist's sources for devotion?

Marines do indeed approach religion differently from the Imperium, in that by and large they don't follow one. They can venerate emperor and primarch, chapter heroes without any problem, however worshiping the emperor or omnissiah (aka the emperor) are the only religions that the Imperium recognizes all others are heretical. The common denominator is that no matter what the Emperor and by extension the Imperium is the thing that commands their loyalty over everything else. By worshiping something other than the Emperor the chapter is by definition disloyal in that something is more important than the emperor.

 

 

DIYs and STCs, how to get them?

Well, first to a certain extent chapter equipment should be available to all chapters as marines share information between themselves (LRC was originally just a Templar vehicle, now every chapter has them), it might take a while but the information will get around. Onto the STC. I always thing of an STC like a data file saved on a disk/CD/Flash drive. The STC's are the accumulation of the Imperium's knowledge at its apex. These were distributed and copied across human controlled space and as a result degraded the data. So it is very possible and indeed likely that STC's covering the same data are found by different sources.

[Messor]

-snip-

 

I wouldn't begrudge other Chapters their specialties, or suggest they should hand them out to anyone who asks, but for a lot of DIY Chapters, that's a limiting factor where the author has to give up either a pattern of vehicle/equipment, or compromise their Chapter's origins to get it.

 

edit:Brother Captain Andrew, I like your points. Where the traitors are concerned, then, I think we may be able to settle on "Its not a crime if you don't get caught". Obviously not with clear chaos worship, but perhaps a 'renegade' Chapter that purports to serve, and does indeed aid the Imperium, but is largely serving its own interests, including subtle attempts at gathering power.

 

Now AdMech geneseed tampering has only occured a couple times, and its likely that those Chapters would be forbidden from siring successors. Would you buy, as Jacobius suggested, the possibility of the Apothecarium allowing/introducing subtle mutation(maybe not taking responsibility for it, though) in order to make the Chapter more similar to its symbols or more powerful on the battlefield (at X cost)? Seems plausible to me, even within the context of what Ace outlined.

 

The data cache aspect may apply to some STCs, or perhaps some parts of them, like removable memory, but where war machines are the question, I think they are mostly the actual mini-forges similar to those first discovered.

[Jacobius]

My understanding of the STC/STC copy thing is that an original STC is a computer that could, based on given parameters, create new designs as needed. They were originally given to colonists sent to seed the galaxy so they would be able to build the stuff they needed.

 

An STC copy is a "hard copy" of one of the blueprints produced by an original STC which can be copied and distributed.

 

There's some inconsistency it seems regarding whether or not the original STCs were able to manufacture as well as create new designs. My only sources are here and here.

 

When has a theme gone too far or Is it possible to go all the way with a theme, and not be overboard?

This is one of those personal issues that really only you can tell. I think that as long as you can provide solid reasons for each part of the theme your good. Why use a specific weapon, why is the chapter divergent, why does the chapter have specific rituals, etc. If you can answer these questions then your theme is good, the issue is when the answer is "cause its cool" too many times then the theme starts to fall apart.

 

This has me wondering whether the whole wolfy theme is subtle enough in my own IA or is it too overblown like the space wolves?

 

-J-

[War Angel]

Leonaides, I think you miss understand me. I'm not saying that a forge would give out recipies, or even that they make so many of an item that it becomes common place. Im just convinced that theres ways to become "VIP" members and gain access, though limited, to things like a baal predator

[Leonaides]

No, I did understand you, but I was trying to make the point that there are not always ways to become a vip, as you put it. 40k is not a level-headed rational universe. Allies kill each other in the face of certain destruction instead of standing against their common foe, useful vehicles are not freely distributed, simple fixes and upgrades are not allowed because they don't fit with the perceived rites of maintenance.........

 

Knowledge is power, those who share too much will fall.

[War Angel]

I agree with you, things arnt going to be shared with every one. But there can be a few exceptions. A very few exceptions.

[Messor]

I agree with you, things arnt going to be shared with every one. But there can be a few exceptions. A very few exceptions.

 

And I have to agree with War Angel, in that, plain and simply, it can happen. It shouldn't happen often, because yes that would spoil the concept, but it very likely can happen. It could even make for some interesting narrative conflict between Chapters vying for the same limited production STC equipment from a common forge world. More importantly, though it wouldn't be cool if forge worlds/Chapter simply handed out the gear that makes them unique, it seems equally ungainly story-wise to withhold vital/effective equipment with a warzone in the subsector next door. That all aside, there's more than one way (as we've established) that a Chapter might acquire an STC/design. The most challenging, but possibly most rewarding method in my mind would be to write a counts-as weapon, something unique to your DIY(Not suggested in the OP because I only just thought about it...now looks like a very tempting option).

[War Angel]

Im a big fan of "count as" substitutes for things like that. Even changing the weapons and Discription of special characters to fit with you're own chapter. Rules wise it's the same thing, but by changing how you get the rules (a nomal storm bolter being fired by an expert quick draw counting as dorns arrow for example) you can recreate how you do youre models.

 

As a general rule, I've always been convinced that you can do whatever you want, if you write a compelling and convincing story to it.

[Messor]

Im a big fan of "count as" substitutes for things like that. Even changing the weapons and Discription of special characters to fit with you're own chapter. Rules wise it's the same thing, but by changing how you get the rules (a nomal storm bolter being fired by an expert quick draw counting as dorns arrow for example) you can recreate how you do youre models.

 

As a general rule, I've always been convinced that you can do whatever you want, if you write a compelling and convincing story to it.

 

That's a favorite rule of mine, too. After seeing Pedro Kantor's Hold The Line! Chapter tactic, I'm planning on modelling/remodelling a Captain Kirrahe after him. :)

[Ace Debonair]

Ace you make me wonder if I've over themed my own chapter...I think I'm safe. You're right on the money though.

I should also add my opinion is that almost anything can be included in a Chapter if well-written enough.

And the further point that it doesn't mean almost anything should be included in a Chapter.

 

If your chapter can be best summarized as '[iNSERT THING] in 40K', it's probably over-themed. :)

 

Incidentally my own Chapter, The Stonebound, are horribly over-themed by my own critieria. This is probably part of what gives me the Legendary Headaches that occur when I work on them. :)

[Messor]

Over-themed? I must not have the context, since the Stonebound seem pretty original to me. Then again *looks at first two IAs*.