Some Questions I Wish I'd Asked...

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Over-themed? I must not have the context, since the Stonebound seem pretty original to me. Then again *looks at first two IAs*.

Pshhh, amount of IAs you've done means nothing. Some people get it faster than others (I was one of the slow ones :P ). The fact that you're asking questions such as these shows how much you already understand, so don't sell yourself short :)

[Messor]

Pshhh, amount of IAs you've done means nothing. Some people get it faster than others (I was one of the slow ones :P ). The fact that you're asking questions such as these shows how much you already understand, so don't sell yourself short ^_^

 

Thanks DAT, I appreciate it ^_^

[Messor]

Some more pieces for the puzzle:

 

What happens in the 21st founding...well, its not Vegas

So between some interesting discussion in the Community IA thread, and some coalescing ideas of my own, I'm interested in hammering down(as much as one can nail down water) some notions of the Cursed Founding.

 

I don't have a lot of material to go off, but of known 21st Chapter we've got about 50/50 with knowledge of their gene-fathers. In the 13th, this happened because Terra did not have original gene-samples. Reasonable to assume the same unknown of the 21st founding? I've also always wondered why gene-seed tithes don't fix these problems, anyone have ideas on that?

 

On another Cursed note, the founding was aimed not only at fixing known genetic flaws in the Astartes, but creating a new Primarch-eque figure. This idea leads me to believe that the founding would have involved all the loyalist legions(possibly the traitors as well, but they don't factor in here), not just those with flawed/missing organs, opening the floor to experimentation on even Ultramines, White Scars and Dark Angels material. Fair?

 

On the other side of the coin, the Community IA project is broaching the hot topic of a Space Wolves successor. Most of the discussion revolves around the Canis Helix. How much of the problem is that(I'm about to branch into Wolves a little here)? The 40kwiki says more on the subject than Lexicanum, though I'm sure a SW dex would be the most reliable, simply stating that mutation led to the Chapter being disbanded, and pointing out that the SW gene-seed could surely never be spliced to form a new Chapter. If that's the case, how can it be spliced to maintain the current Chapter? I've never heard of the SW being in danger of extinction, and in 10,000 years gene-seed had to be replaced somehow. This all leads to: how unlikely is it really that another attempt at SW successors was not undertaken, especially in this most(maybe second most) questionable founding?

 

What of the gene/cloning tech retrieved by Corax? Presumably the tech corrupted by Omegon is still possessed by the Imperium. Would a founding that produced marines bathed in fire be above making another attempt at utilizing this tech, trying to undo the sabotage? Odds of success, probably slim to none, but that's not the question. Does anyone know if there have been any loyalist attempts to clone since Corax?

 

Last but not least, and this is more of a tally than a question, the 'Curse' of the 21st. Do you see the curse as the abnormalities and abominations the 21st created, or a more figurative/mystic Curse like the 'misfortune' of the Lamenters?

[Octavulg]

It was huge, and daunting,

Good. IAs are huge and daunting. Chapters are huge and daunting. The process of writing them is worse.

That said, I must remember to do "Octavulg's Guide to Being Scared of the Octaguide" and stick it at the first. Walk people through one of those little C:SM blurbs. Which is most of what people need, anyway.

If you ask me, its can be a mighty fine line, and to be honest I haven't seen a lot of Chapter's toeing it, but it happens. Who decides? Is IA a self declaration, or maybe a Legio Label? Is a Chapter not IT until the Imperium declares Excommunicatus? Does the Imperium concern itself if, say, a Chapter is kidnapping those it would recruit, or has assassinated an apparently stable/loyal lord or governor for their own reasons? I think this can be answered on more than a case by case basis, but I don't have nearly the fluff background to back up that hypothesis, so "Ask the experts!"

An Index Traitoris is a chapter that is viewed as a traitor by the Imperium. An Index Astartes is a chapter that, well, isn't.

Renegades can fall a little on the line - if they actively oppose, I think they fall in Traitoris. If they're more noble, that's a little trickier.

When has a theme gone too far or Is it possible to go all the way with a theme, and not be overboard?

The reason it's hard to answer is because it depends on the theme, the author, and the writing. And the reader. I mean, there are people who like Codex: Blood Angels.

What are sources of mutation?

Some experimentation does exist. A mutation in the geneseed in C:SM 3e is tagged for further investigation by chapter apothecaries (one of the Marines has out of control muscle growth). It's still not likely to be anything other than cautious, though.

What are a loyalist's sources for devotion?

Heresy is in the eye of the beholder. If their religious practices offend someone, they'll get in trouble. But they have to get caught first.

I don't have a lot of material to go off, but of known 21st Chapter we've got about 50/50 with knowledge of their gene-fathers. In the 13th, this happened because Terra did not have original gene-samples. Reasonable to assume the same unknown of the 21st founding?

Yes and no. IIRC, the Black Dragons are suspected to be Salamander successors due to iconography and such - it would seem likely that some chapters know their heritage. On the other hand, it's implied the Flame Falcons weren't mentored by a cadre, so some may not.

The Relictors may also be Cursed Founding, and we know they're of Ultramarine/DA stock.

I've also always wondered why gene-seed tithes don't fix these problems, anyone have ideas on that?

The Ad Mech are idiots. It's the only explanation. Alternately, they either haven't looked or aren't telling. Or comparing geneseed is complicated and unpredictable.

Honestly, it's best not to poke at that area of the fluff too hard.

On another Cursed note, the founding was aimed not only at fixing known genetic flaws in the Astartes, but creating a new Primarch-eque figure. This idea leads me to believe that the founding would have involved all the loyalist legions(possibly the traitors as well, but they don't factor in here), not just those with flawed/missing organs, opening the floor to experimentation on even Ultramines, White Scars and Dark Angels material. Fair?

Sure. Though the White Scars seed isn't pure, it just doesn't have missing organs.

The UM and DA seeds would probably make good test beds for modification, really.

pointing out that the SW gene-seed could surely never be spliced to form a new Chapter. If that's the case, how can it be spliced to maintain the current Chapter? I've never heard of the SW being in danger of extinction, and in 10,000 years gene-seed had to be replaced somehow.

Sure. It reproduces at a swift enough rate to maintain numbers, but not to add another chapter. Unlikely, but possible. Especially when you add in the unruly and non-Codex nature of the Space Wolves (would you want more of them?)

What of the gene/cloning tech retrieved by Corax?

The Raven Guard are shored up by geneseed shipments from Terra. The fact that they have successors is a product of people ignoring that part of the fluff.

Last but not least, and this is more of a tally than a question, the 'Curse' of the 21st. Do you see the curse as the abnormalities and abominations the 21st created, or a more figurative/mystic Curse like the 'misfortune' of the Lamenters?

It's both. Each chapter will have some quirk or mutation and generally be unlucky and have unstable geneseed.

[Brother Tyler]

It needs to be pointed out that an Index Traitoris is something that we (B&C members) made up in order to differentiate a renegade Chapter (or legion or warband) from a loyalist Chapter. The official articles that Games Workshop published are all Index Astartes, even those covering the traitors (both the Legions and the subsequent Chapters/warbands).

Actually, I suppose it's also necessary to point out that each article isn't an "Index Astartes" - each article is part of the Index Astartes. The Index Astartes is like an Imperial encyclopedia of all things "Space Marine." So really they are not an "Index Astartes" or "Indices Astartes." They are just articles in the Index Astartes. That's just me being pedantic, though.

[NightrawenII]

 

When has a theme gone too far or Is it possible to go all the way with a theme, and not be overboard?

Over-theming is situation where the sauce becomes the main dish. You see, the theme [sauce] is here to add flavour to your Chapter, not replace it.

 

 

What are sources of mutation?

Accidents happen. Also, in some cases the apothecaries, for some reason or another, don't know what they are doing.

 

In fact, *very few Chapters possess all nineteen implants* and *the efficiency of each organ differs from Chapter to Chapter, depending on the condition of that Chapter's gene-seeds and the degree of debasement of its surgical procedures*.

 

 

What are a loyalist's sources for devotion?

What the Octavulg said.

Steel Cobras got excommunicated for totem-worship and Sons of Mallice for cannibalistic rituals.

 

Some more pieces for the puzzle:

 

What happens in the 21st founding...well, its not Vegas

I don't have a lot of material to go off, but of known 21st Chapter we've got about 50/50 with knowledge of their gene-fathers. In the 13th, this happened because Terra did not have original gene-samples. Reasonable to assume the same unknown of the 21st founding? I've also always wondered why gene-seed tithes don't fix these problems, anyone have ideas on that?

 

On another Cursed note, the founding was aimed not only at fixing known genetic flaws in the Astartes, but creating a new Primarch-eque figure. This idea leads me to believe that the founding would have involved all the loyalist legions(possibly the traitors as well, but they don't factor in here), not just those with flawed/missing organs, opening the floor to experimentation on even Ultramines, White Scars and Dark Angels material. Fair?

The Fire Hawks are 21st Founding Chapter and Ultramarines successor, but their gene-seed is/was too messed up to be sure.

 

~NightrawenII

[Messor]

Good. IAs are huge and daunting. Chapters are huge and daunting. The process of writing them is worse.

So I have learned.

The Raven Guard are shored up by geneseed shipments from Terra. The fact that they have successors is a product of people ignoring that part of the fluff.

Actually, I only meant in regards to the technology itself(corrupted, destroyed, fixed, who knows) still being with the Imperium. As fate would have it, the one Raven Guard successor I conceived gets the same sort of shipments, though I quite missed that part of the fluff.

No, the real question is if they would venture to use the technology again, whether in an effort to cure genetic defects, or experimentation to create this new 'Primarch'?

edit:I was under the impression that it wasn't really clear if the quirks of the White Scars were genetic. Is that not so? I'm thinking of rolling with them next.

[Octavulg]

The genome has inherited the thirst for war, it's just that no one's sure whether it always had it or if it developed because of the tribesmen. 

 

The tech...it may still be there, but it ended so badly with the Raven Guard that I don't know that it would be used. 

[legoss]

Just read this through, lots of thought provoking stuff, good job all around. The questions about mutation though made me wonder, if the apothecaries were encouraging mutations, who else would know? It would show up in tithes maybe, but if the mutations were small at first, and just kept building would they take the time to investigate deeper, or just take it at face value that the chapter was mutating?

[Messor]

I wondered that myself. It depends on what is done with the tithe. I kind of assume the 'tests' of purity are basic comparisons against a standard like the parent Chapter, or the Chapter-in-question's original gene-seed. I doubt it gets implanted or anything to see 'what happens', so in that way mutations could be kept secret.

[Octavulg]

Nightrawen, remind me to consult you for my "Big List of Things That No One Ever Remembers About Space Marines".

 

(Did you know chapters merge? 3e BRB)

[legoss]

I wondered that myself. It depends on what is done with the tithe. I kind of assume the 'tests' of purity are basic comparisons against a standard like the parent Chapter, or the Chapter-in-question's original gene-seed. I doubt it gets implanted or anything to see 'what happens', so in that way mutations could be kept secret.

That's what I meant I think. Once the tithe is taken, how is it handled? Do they report any mutation, or just major ones? If they find them, do they report back to the chapter too? Or just to the inquisition? I remember reading a story in one of the BL anthologies about an apothecary who had turned to nurgle, so this topic made me think of that and how that could happen.

[Wade Garrett]

 

Overthemed:

The Chapter has Shoguns instead of Captains. It is led by Grand Shogun Oda Nobunaga. They have katanas and follow a rigid, samurai-style disciplined approach to everything. They also have ninjas instead of scouts. There is gratuitous use of Japanese titles for companies just in case it hasn't been hammered home enough that these are Space Samurai. They also come from Space Japan.

So my Space Lions, from planet Nemea, led by Lion Lord Felix Lionborn and his Lion Guard, who ride giant Thunder Lions into battle, are a bit too much?

[Octavulg]

There is a slight possibility that some might find it so.

Fortunately, I already wrote up the planet Nemea, so I'd just whine about the damage you were doing to the shared universe.

[Wade Garrett]

Which IA is that in?

 

And if said IA doesn't have any references to lions or Hercules, I shall be cross.

[Octavulg]

It's in a battle report in the Legio Imprint. The Steel Dogs and Heralds of Light lure their treacherous brethren, the Lions of Alba, into a trap on Nemea.

 

I titled the Battle Report "Going on a Lion Hunt". Because I'm :cussing hilarious.

 

The Imprint's not back up in the files section. Yet.

[Messor]

That's what I meant I think. Once the tithe is taken, how is it handled? Do they report any mutation, or just major ones? If they find them, do they report back to the chapter too? Or just to the inquisition? I remember reading a story in one of the BL anthologies about an apothecary who had turned to nurgle, so this topic made me think of that and how that could happen.

What exactly goes on, I don't think we have any idea. I'm sure if the mechanicus found a problem, the Chapter would be the first to hear, assuming they haven't been doing anything suspicious. However, its also possible that checks are rarely made, unless requested. The Chapter will be the first to know about mutations simply by mutating them. If they want to keep it a secret/are intentionally mutating, there are ways to hide it. They could 'acquire' another gene-seed sample to use for tithes, or try to avoid submitting them altogether, though eventually that would attract attention.