AA defense , longfangs, predator or agesis dff line ?

[Ikken]

good morning

I am working through some options on a 1500 pt list . i currently have in my Heavy slots :

LF pack #1 5 ml + wg TDA

LF pack #2 5ML +WG TDA+CML

Predator AC, 2xHB sponsons

 

The predator is there because i like the model , and i was thinking that for 85pts it might be effective AA , it pumps out 8 shots a turn , and can move around . AV 14 front armor and 3 hull points . My thought is that it will not be great AA , but that it can be a dual use sort of thing .

 

I was thinking of the aegeis DF line + quad gun for 100 points , but i worry that the quad gun will get picked out easily and it is not mobile so can be avoided by my opponent .

 

the other thought i had this morning was another LF squad 5x HB , this will throw up 15 s5 HB shots each turn and is mobile , like the predator . the cost is in line with the predator / aegeis line options roughly 100 points or so .

 

I have not faced fliers b4 , and I am wondering what others have to say about them . How hard are they to kill , and how much damage can they do ?

 

for the roughly 100pts I have to spend on this which is the better option ?

 

this is for a 1500 pt list .

[Russ Brother 92]

I personally would go for the Aegis purely because of the key AA (Skyfire) ability - I've faced off (at 1500pts) against 2 flyers (IG Vendettas) and they get real nasty real quick, always turbo-boosting (means normal/non-skyfire units hit of 6's only and +1 to it's jink) meaning that even with lots of shots (say 10-15) you'll only hit maybe 3-4 tops and unlikely to damage it with much (your opponents likely to having it with front armour towards you at all times) so most things like HB are needing 6's, and you're unlikely to have enough lascannons to get a significant number of shots without comprising something else on the board...

 

They CAN do an absolute ton of damage to your forces - my enemy ran two las-heavy vendettas which didn't do much to me (I run a footslog/drop pod force) but it did hit my back units (long fangs/rune priests) quite hard and was a major distraction - I would suggest running both the LFs and Aegis (your pack leader mans the AA thus it's always operational and your LFs can shoot at a diff. target due to his special rule iirc.).

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

the aegis line is your best bet there.

 

preds are armor 13

 

i wouldnt do the HB pack because most flyers being Armor 10-11 mean's you'll be needing 6's to hit and 5-6's to do any damage. not really worth it in my opinion. especially with so few wounds in the squad.

 

WLK

[Hafdan]

What about swapping out a couple ML for LAS and fielding a couple LASBacks? THe twin Linked could help you score a hit.

[Bran Scalphunter]

(your pack leader mans the AA thus it's always operational and your LFs can shoot at a diff. target due to his special rule iirc.).

 

Sounds good till this point. The LF can only splitfire if the Pack Leader does not shoot at all, so if he us using the Quadgun from the Aegis line, the rest of the pack will be hosing down the same target as him. That said, it's probably best if they are doing so as well.

 

When in doubt, throw obscene amounts of firepower at the frakker and pray he dies a horrible painful death!

[Nightmare84]

Long fangs with prescience does fine with me. Sure 6s to hit sucks but Indont like the idea of paid for terrain in my army.

I found twin assault cannon razorbacks work well too.

[Heimdall Skullcrusher]

(your pack leader mans the AA thus it's always operational and your LFs can shoot at a diff. target due to his special rule iirc.).

 

Sounds good till this point. The LF can only splitfire if the Pack Leader does not shoot at all, so if he us using the Quadgun from the Aegis line, the rest of the pack will be hosing down the same target as him. That said, it's probably best if they are doing so as well.

 

When in doubt, throw obscene amounts of firepower at the frakker and pray he dies a horrible painful death!

 

Yeah, might be good to include a bare bones WG (or even WGTDA to soak up hits) to man the quadgun.

[Lord Ragnarok]

How about a rune priest and 2x maxed missle fangs casting prescience?

[Ullr Direfang]

They need to allow us to buy Flak missiles for something like 5 or 10 points, I mean we have no real AA other then our missile launchers, and they aren't even AA. I know it is the "time of flyers" but come on.

 

I was personally think the twin linked Assault cannons would be a good idea as well.

[Rift Blade]

The twin linked Assault Cannons do work very well. Have fielded one for a couple of games as there are several flyers in my area (pair of Vendettas, Storm Talon, pair of Razor Wings As well as a Doom Scythe) & yes, they can do do a lot of damage. I have had my butt handed to my a couple of times due to these things. The twin linked Assault Cannon has gone a long ways to even things out but it is still an uphill battle, but then the Sons of Russ enjoy a good challenge(and I'm probably to stubborn for my own good). I have not tried the Aegis Defence Line( that stubborn thing) but if you have it, give it a whirl. I'm toying with a second Razor back with Assault cannons cause one doesn't always cut it. Otherwise maybe try the LF with HB & RP with Prescience. Just my 2 cents.

[Russ Brother 92]

(your pack leader mans the AA thus it's always operational and your LFs can shoot at a diff. target due to his special rule iirc.).

 

Sounds good till this point. The LF can only splitfire if the Pack Leader does not shoot at all, so if he us using the Quadgun from the Aegis line, the rest of the pack will be hosing down the same target as him. That said, it's probably best if they are doing so as well.

 

When in doubt, throw obscene amounts of firepower at the frakker and pray he dies a horrible painful death!

 

ahh I wasn't sure :lol: thanks for correction - in that case I'd go with 2 packs plus a runepriest, run prescience and another buff - one lf pack leader runs the quad gun and the other pack protects him :)

[frostclaw222]

I bought and am in the process of putting together a Storm Eagle, I'm so desperate for something to combat flyers.

 

But, at the risk of staying on topic but possibly taking this thread a little macro/meta here, I've got to say this:

 

GW did an awesome job on our codex, as far as it was when it hit the street, and to be honest, I think it's still a great dex, barring a few longstanding grumbles. However, there is a huge gap when it comes to AA/aircraft. I can understand how GW might be hesitant to give Long Fangs flakk. I mean, think about it: that's potentially two flyers a turn we're taking down with a single squad. Now, for some lists (Necron Flying Circus and Guard V-fest, I may be looking in your general direction) that'd be a valid upgrade; those lists can put out a lot of airborne nasty for fairly cheap. But when you look at other lists and their ability to put things up, a single Long Fang pack could akk-akk all the air support in turn two at the latest, and then switch to ground-based fire support, seriously tipping the balance in the Wolves player's favor.

 

What I'm saying is, as a Wolves player, I appreciate the pickle this puts the Games Development team in. But the present situation is the exact opposite, with the Wolves players taking it in the shorts.

 

There are some very good ideas put out in this thread. I particularly like the assault cannon razorback one, as I've been wanting a reason to put a few of those on the field, and they're able to switch to good mid-range light armor and anti-infantry fire support in the event there's no air to combat, making them versatile. But I think GW GD needs to do something sooner rather than later.

 

Let it not be said I'm griping without providing a set of possible solutions, though. Below are some ideas on how to fix this problem, without tipping the meta too far in the favor of Fenris:

 

1) Tweak the LF pack leader's rule. Split-fire or SkyFire if he doesn't shoot. Prevents one pack downing two birds at once, provides Wolves with anti-air immediately via FAQ without giving us aircraft.

2) Permit Sky Talon to Wolves via FAQ/WD article.

3) Permit Storm Raven (or some variant) to Wolves via FAQ/WD article.

4) Put out a new flyer specifically balanced for use in a Space Wolves army.

5) Revise FAQ rulings on Rune Priests and Njal to let them provide anti-air with certain powers/abilities. They're big targets already; this just makes them bigger targets, and provides the capability in the list as it presently stands.

 

There's a crazier idea that I don't ascribe to, but will include for sake of completeness:

 

6) We already have drop pods and Land Raiders with different capacity maximums. What about tweaking our Hunter-Killer missiles to have SkyFire?

 

Was about to start a new thread, saw this thread going, and thought I'd opine.

 

Personally, I agree with a lot of what's been said already: LF HBs are dakka, but weak dakka. The assault cannon Razorback option is better in that respect. I'm not a fan of tasking a Rune Priest to a Long Fang pack because I feel it's wasteful points-wise, but that might be the most effective, albeit expensive, solution, especially when one things of SplitFire letting you get two-fers on the opposing aircraft. Given the Aegis is a fortification, and fortifications are one-per-FOC, I view that as supplementary, not a solution. Any smart opponent will prioritize that as a target if they're relying on their flyers to win the game for them, and it'll die a quick death, leaving us wide open to a serious sky full of hate.

[Khine]

(your pack leader mans the AA thus it's always operational and your LFs can shoot at a diff. target due to his special rule iirc.).

 

Sounds good till this point. The LF can only splitfire if the Pack Leader does not shoot at all, so if he us using the Quadgun from the Aegis line, the rest of the pack will be hosing down the same target as him. That said, it's probably best if they are doing so as well.

 

When in doubt, throw obscene amounts of firepower at the frakker and pray he dies a horrible painful death!

 

ahh I wasn't sure :) thanks for correction - in that case I'd go with 2 packs plus a runepriest, run prescience and another buff - one lf pack leader runs the quad gun and the other pack protects him :P

 

could always chuck a basic load out wolfguard into the LF pack in order for him to man the gun. Would leave everyone else free to do their own thing.

[Rift Blade]

Frostclaw, you should send that list to GW. That is a nice list of ideas. I expect #2-GW FAQing the Storm Talon to be available to us will most likely happen at some point down the line or the Storm Raven but there are some other very good ideas in that list. I've considered picking up a Storm Raven to convert to a Storm Eagle(there are some so so picks of this on another forum) to have a Flyer but wit XMas coming that has taken aback seat to other things. As t othe actual topic--having a LF pack Ldr man the Aegis Def gun--add a a basic WGPL so that he can man the gun & the pack Leadeer himself is still free to split fire the pack. If he is manning the gun & firing it, the rest of the pack cannot fire at another target I believe.

[frostclaw222]

Rift Blade, I've got one friend who works for GW that I sent it to, but he's probably not in touch with anyone in Games Development, as that's not his field. I'm not sure what the proper email address would be to put the ideas before the right people, but if anyone here does have an idea, feel free to fire it off. For me, it's not about "taking credit" so much as it is about finding a fair way to fix what I see as a problem with the codex. I think some of the ideas are feasible via FAQ and are not overpowering, and that one or two could be done quickly with little negative and much positive impact on the competitive meta.

 

That being said and back on-topic, I really like the idea of adding a bare-bones Wolf Guard to a Long Fang force and camping them in the Aegis with the weapons emplacement, but here's an alternative: what about an Iron Priest with servitors manning the guns, while the Long Fangs are freed up to take another position. The IP's then also on-hand as a repair depot for any vehicles or dreadnoughts that need patching up. The servitors provide either additional snap-fire or counter-assault fire, and ablative wounds for the Iron Priest while he does his job, ditching aircraft.

 

Might seem like an expensive investment in terms of points and Elites slot expenditure, but it is another solution. Too bad Iron Priests can't bolster defenses or repair the weapons emplacement, because then they'd be the ideal gunnery operator.

[beerbeard]

Heavy Bolters are s5, and therefore useless against Vendettas, Storm Ravens, and that silly new Chaos thing.

 

GW designers have said the Storm Talon is going to be vanilla SM only.

 

If DA get a flyer as rumored, then it wouldn't surprise me if the Sons of Russ get one as well, but not for awhile. Same with Flakk missiles, I have to assume GW has a plan in place for those but you would think it would have happened by now.

 

If you know or think you are going to face a flyer, you pretty much need a quad gun. Nothing else is reliable, and remember with interceptor you can shot at all units that come in from reserves, including outflankers. I think it is more "wolfy" to put in on a bastion myself. The Icarus Lascannon is an interesting option too, as it has a pretty decent chance to take down even an AV12 flyer with one shot. It's also cheaper.

 

For me, my foot wolves use neither fortifications or vehicles. Or they haven't, that Chaos flyer will be able to nearly wipe out a pack of GH the turn it comes in, I might have to change things up a bit to have an answer for it.

 

bb

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

not to sound like a bitter gamer, but i dont see the Wolves getting a flyer anytime soon...GW is releasing flyers slowly, forcing those without to either purchase aegis lines or suffer a difficult game.

 

I personally planning on allying my Raven Guard in and using their Storm Talon on a "Top Gun" role, hunting down enemy flyers as fast as i can.

 

WLK

[Rift Blade]

Frostclaw--just wanted to say that your ideas were good--showed some thought towards game balance & as you said, several coud easily be put into play by GW with little or no fuss. Job well done. As for the Iron Priest & servitors, I like that idea as well. May have to try it some time. We usually have a big game or three around here in Nov & Dec as well as an Apoc game( last one was 7000 pts. of Wolves vs Guard--we fought to a bloody draw if you can beleive that).

 

Lord Kieran--have faith. I agree with you GW is milking it but I do beleive that something will come our way. However like you, I've started collecting an allies force--Imperial Guard--to give myself some flyers in the form of Vendettas. I have been trading some of my old Eye of Terror Traitor army units for Guard here & there & slowly getting together the basics. Peolpe around here are going for Chaos rather quickly sovery soon I will be facing several different Chaos armies & I know at least 2 of them want that Dragon thing. Oh well. We used to have one with a Hell Blade but it wasn't that bad. Then again that was before 6th.

 

Another possibilty is a Rifleman Dread & A RP w/ Prescience. Not nearly as effective but you know.

[Grimtooth]

I have been looking at AC Razorbacks specifically for our AA as I already run two with my Long Fang packs.

 

My mai idea is that I will be able to "actively" hunt flyers as they are zooming on and off the board doing their thing. You can move and shoot with them as you already need sixes to hit anyway and the mobility will allow you to draw a bead on weaker armor facings. Let's not forget that an additional 6 increases chances of penetration to not only increase hull point damage, but secondary effects that screw over flyers.

 

AC Razorbacks and possibly even AC Dreadnoughts.

[frostclaw222]

It'd be truly a sad day on Fenris if Bjorn was brought to be a fly swatter. ;)

[Grimtooth]

It'd be truly a sad day on Fenris if Bjorn was brought to be a fly swatter. :mellow:

 

I don't think you need to go that far now. Plenty of other options for dreads.

[clanfield]

or you could include a aliie detachment with a flyer alla storm raven /storm talon or valkarie with some thrall support ?

[the jeske]

They need to allow us to buy Flak missiles for something like 5 or 10 points, I mean we have no real AA other then our missile launchers, and they aren't even AA. I know it is the "time of flyers" but come on.

 

I was personally think the twin linked Assault cannons would be a good idea as well.

 

oh realy 5pts , in the chaos dex it costs 15 and our dudes can neither take 5 RL per squad , split fire or have ATKNF :huh:

good idea. If anything then SW should never have anti aircraft units as a form of limiter build in . just like necrons cant spam ap2 plasma class weapons.

[Grimtooth]

or you could include a aliie detachment with a flyer alla storm raven /storm talon or valkarie with some thrall support ?

 

Allies are great and all, but I just don't want any flyers in my army. Even when allying in BA to represent my 13th Co, I have zero desire to bring in a flyer. In fact, just made the concious decision that AC Razorbacks will be my AA choice supported by ML Long Fangs.

[Warbringer]

How about Hyperios Air Defence Platform from FW? 3 in a Fast Attack Slot.

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-4000...E-LAUNCHER.html