Targets saturation in CSM armies

[Cmdr Shepard]

I was thinking about a list to play in the next days and when I started to consider the inclusion of the new fiends and other vehicles I realized immediately the need to achieve the so called "targets saturation".

 

So here the question: How can we achieve a competitive "target saturation" in our CSM armies?

 

Even though I may not have all the units from the Codex yet, I'm a recent CSM player, I'm open to any suggestion. <_<

[Dallas Drake]

Well these are my thoughts.

 

If you plan to run Cultist blobs & foot MEQs then load up with Spawn. Havocs & Oblits for HS.

 

If you plan to go Rhino MEQs then load up on mech (Fiends, Predators, Defilers).

 

Just my very simple thoughts.

 

Dallas

[Feste]

You'll also probably want at least something that's very fast and in their face immediately. Squads of Raptors would be a decent choice, can't be ignored but no-one wants to shoot them; Bikers might be a bit tougher and draw off some of the heavier firepower.

 

Huron and infiltrating in ranged Chosen might also be a decent option. Not too expensive but a clear threat from the off.

 

All of which distracts from the pushing Rhino's.

[minigun762]

Land raiders are always good bullet sponges. I think I'll run one personally. Most any heavy support helps with saturation, in other slots, terminators, brutes, hellchickens can all provide some saturation. Think of it in terms of what the opponents weapons will be shooting at.

[Feste]

Land raiders are always good bullet sponges. I think I'll run one personally. Most any heavy support helps with saturation, in other slots, terminators, brutes, hellchickens can all provide some saturation. Think of it in terms of what the opponents weapons will be shooting at.

I was going to mention Hellchicken's as a good fast threat, but was wondering if they actually provide target saturation. As fliers, their going to be a different target to the normal units and for which your opponent might have a specific set of weaponry dedicated to. On the other hand, their AA might just be a bunch of autocannons and without a Hellchicken they just turn the guns onto your Rhino's and you're now in trouble.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I was seriously thinking about playing a Hellchicken in the first few matches just to see how it performs (by the way, poor creature.. it has been "downgraded" from drake to a mere chicken :lol: )

I'm aware of all the flyers' limitations but I think it may offer a good distraction (it's an AV12, 5++ invul and shall not die vehicle).

 

I also believe helbrutes may help with target saturation. They are cheap (well at least not expensive ;) ) and bring a very nice Multimelta that can deal with vehicles and fortifications.

I see no one mentioned the Vindicator. What do you think about it? I suppose it can fall in to the "target saturation" category.

 

One of my first plans was to include a 10 men TDA unit. However with 2 reaper cannons, 2 chainfists, 2 claws, MoT and Veterans of the Long war they reach 480 pts. 20 more pts than loyalist tactical TDA with two ML.

 

A good number of cultists will be an auto-include choice and since I usually play at 2000 pts I can use two FoC for good old redundancy :devil:

 

Spawns and raptors are two units that can annoy the opponents. Fast enough to be ignored but, as Feste said, no one want to shoot them.

 

For now I won't play a heavy rhinos list. I can change my mind if I see it will be more effective then I supposed.

 

Fiends... they are creating me some problem. I don't feel confident enough to play the maulerfiend, even though its fast movement could play a perfect role in a target saturation scenario.

 

What do you think about Abaddon and, eventually, chosen troops?

I'd like to play him and I think he should be a quite resiliat warlord.... maybe in a cultist mob?

 

EDIT:

About Warp Talons:

They look a little too expensive. They all have a pair of Claws but they can be overkilling a weak unit or suffer greately due their "ranged weapons limitation". I'm currently prefering a squad of Raptors but I'm open to suggestions.

[Dallas Drake]

Helldrake starts in reserves, so not much use there, you'll be getting it on turn 2 at best.

 

Dallas

 

EDIT: Warp Talons are a god awful unit. Over-priced, too tailored to MEQ killing, not tough enough & going to get shot up irrespective of their Blind special rule. Horrible unit.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Helldrake starts in reserves, so not much use there, you'll be getting it on turn 2 at best.

 

Dallas

 

True but when it enters it add a fast threat to our armies. I'm not saying it is perfect for target saturation but maybe it can allow the target saturation to continue past turn 1 ;)

 

Anyway the more a think about the Helbrutes the more they look good for target saturation. Only dilemma is "Multimelta" or dual fists? Multimelta seems more balanced.

[Dallas Drake]

True but when it enters it add a fast threat to our armies.

 

Not really. It's getting shot down by an Aegis or enemy flyer. See it doesn't add target saturation to the ground targets, people won't shoot at it with lascannons, they'll shoot at it with skyfire or not at all. Ignoring it isn't a big deal, it's not a very good unit.

 

Anyway the more a think about the Helbrutes the more they look good for target saturation. Only dilemma is "Multimelta" or dual fists? Multimelta seems more balanced.

 

Problem is - it's just a Dreadnought with some crazy rules. AV12 is nothing & it's slow as sh1t. Plus its rules don't really help it getting into threat range any quicker (aside from ignore shake/stun & a 1/3 of fleet), the killer for me is that its Crazed result has a 1/3 chance of immobilizing it for a turn, too bad if you're not in range eh? I just don't think they'll get into combat much at all, plus it's an elites slot. If they gave it a 12'' move or some kind of drop pod or way to get it into range then maybe, just maybe...

 

Dallas

[Vesper]

What do you think about Abaddon and, eventually, chosen troops?

I'd like to play him and I think he should be a quite resiliat warlord.... maybe in a cultist mob?

 

I love Abaddon. I run my count-as as often as possible.

Yet, he's quite expensive, so sometimes for small games, a cheap Lord, or Khârn/Huron may fill the warlord role better than him.

I have yet to try the whole Chosen as troops. Chosen + Terminators + Raptors/Bikes seems bretty brutal. We'll see.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've decided that I'm not going to give my opponent the chance to focus fire on my armor. Huron with a big block of Tzeentch Termies -- they're Infantry, so he can Infiltrate them. They'll be in combat no later than turn three, and if they're not that means they're all dead. Put 'em up front and center, and they're likely to attract a metric ton of anti-tank fire, leaving things like Rhinos or a Vindicator to get into a good position.

[Cmdr Shepard]

What do you think about Abaddon and, eventually, chosen troops?

I'd like to play him and I think he should be a quite resiliat warlord.... maybe in a cultist mob?

 

I love Abaddon. I run my count-as as often as possible.

Yet, he's quite expensive, so sometimes for small games, a cheap Lord, or Khârn/Huron may fill the warlord role better than him.

I have yet to try the whole Chosen as troops. Chosen + Terminators + Raptors/Bikes seems bretty brutal. We'll see.

 

I like Abaddon too and since I often play 2000pts matches the point limit issue could be mitigated.

 

I tried to write a list focused on Abaddon, chosen, TDA and raptors. The problem is there is no room for long range support. TDA alone cost about 480 pts.

However if I don't include the new daemon engines in the list (I'm curious to see how they will perform) I may have a good amount of points available for other units.

 

I will lack of long range firepower but even the new engines have a short range. I suppose I'll be in the same condition of GK and their 24" threat range... with some 36" weapon, though :lol:

 

By the way how do you suggest to equip chosen units?

 

I've decided that I'm not going to give my opponent the chance to focus fire on my armor. Huron with a big block of Tzeentch Termies -- they're Infantry, so he can Infiltrate them. They'll be in combat no later than turn three, and if they're not that means they're all dead. Put 'em up front and center, and they're likely to attract a metric ton of anti-tank fire, leaving things like Rhinos or a Vindicator to get into a good position.

 

I thought to use this strategy when I don't plan to field Abaddon. ^_^

 

Will you use a "rhino spam" or at least several rhinos?

I'l very tempted to field at least a vindicator but I'm still unsure about mechanize units with rhinos or fielding the new daemon engines.

[Vesper]

What do you think about Abaddon and, eventually, chosen troops?

I'd like to play him and I think he should be a quite resiliat warlord.... maybe in a cultist mob?

 

I love Abaddon. I run my count-as as often as possible.

Yet, he's quite expensive, so sometimes for small games, a cheap Lord, or Khârn/Huron may fill the warlord role better than him.

I have yet to try the whole Chosen as troops. Chosen + Terminators + Raptors/Bikes seems bretty brutal. We'll see.

 

I like Abaddon too and since I often play 2000pts matches the point limit issue could be mitigated.

 

I tried to write a list focused on Abaddon, chosen, TDA and raptors. The problem is there is no room for long range support. TDA alone cost about 480 pts.

However if I don't include the new daemon engines in the list (I'm curious to see how they will perform) I may have a good amount of points available for other units.

 

I will lack of long range firepower but even the new engines have a short range. I suppose I'll be in the same condition of GK and their 24" threat range... with some 36" weapon, though ;)

 

By the way how do you suggest to equip chosen units?

 

That's one tough question. Mostly depends of what your army got, aside chosen.

Special weapons are always handy (even if you SHOULD take a squad of Havocs, for they are great), but 3 attacks base, our Chosen are pretty intimidating in HtH. I would favour a HtH oriented build, but that also depends who and what you're facing.

HtH with Rhinos, with bikers to take the overwatch in the face, deepstriking terminators with Abaddon, and Havoc support.

[Cmdr Shepard]

What do you think about Abaddon and, eventually, chosen troops?

I'd like to play him and I think he should be a quite resiliat warlord.... maybe in a cultist mob?

 

I love Abaddon. I run my count-as as often as possible.

Yet, he's quite expensive, so sometimes for small games, a cheap Lord, or Khârn/Huron may fill the warlord role better than him.

I have yet to try the whole Chosen as troops. Chosen + Terminators + Raptors/Bikes seems bretty brutal. We'll see.

 

I like Abaddon too and since I often play 2000pts matches the point limit issue could be mitigated.

 

I tried to write a list focused on Abaddon, chosen, TDA and raptors. The problem is there is no room for long range support. TDA alone cost about 480 pts.

However if I don't include the new daemon engines in the list (I'm curious to see how they will perform) I may have a good amount of points available for other units.

 

I will lack of long range firepower but even the new engines have a short range. I suppose I'll be in the same condition of GK and their 24" threat range... with some 36" weapon, though -_-

 

By the way how do you suggest to equip chosen units?

 

That's one tough question. Mostly depends of what your army got, aside chosen.

Special weapons are always handy (even if you SHOULD take a squad of Havocs, for they are great), but 3 attacks base, our Chosen are pretty intimidating in HtH. I would favour a HtH oriented build, but that also depends who and what you're facing.

HtH with Rhinos, with bikers to take the overwatch in the face, deepstriking terminators with Abaddon, and Havoc support.

 

Aside from chosen I can field a good number of Cultists (up to 100-110 if needed), TDA, a good number of PA CSM (can be played as chosen or standard and I have the chosen from 3 DV boxes. Also heavoc conversions are in action), vindicator, predator, raptors and the new daemon engines.

My next purchase (still don't know when it will take place :P ) will be at least one squad of bikes.

 

I'd really like to use my converted Abaddon model in a competitve list.

[Captain Idaho]

Shove Abaddon in a Landraider with a squad of bullet catchers, shove it 18" up the field first turn then watch your opponent concentrate on it excessively. Support this attack with two loping Maulerfiends and you've got enough target saturation for anything else to survive almost untouched for most games!

 

That principle holds true even if you don't like Abaddon you see; so you can apply it in many ways.

[Feste]

Shove Abaddon in a Landraider with a squad of bullet catchers, shove it 18" up the field first turn then watch your opponent concentrate on it excessively. Support this attack with two loping Maulerfiends and you've got enough target saturation for anything else to survive almost untouched for most games!

 

That principle holds true even if you don't like Abaddon you see; so you can apply it in many ways.

Do you even need Abaddon? A Khornate Lord with an Axe of Fury and Sigil of Corruption is pretty horrifying too. It's not as if Chaos doesn't have options to turn our Lords into beatsticks. Khârn is another one, put him down, watch him get shot at; all for just over a ton and a half.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Shove Abaddon in a Landraider with a squad of bullet catchers, shove it 18" up the field first turn then watch your opponent concentrate on it excessively. Support this attack with two loping Maulerfiends and you've got enough target saturation for anything else to survive almost untouched for most games!

 

That principle holds true even if you don't like Abaddon you see; so you can apply it in many ways.

 

My only problem: I don't have a Chaos Land Raider, yet. As I said I'm a recent Chaos player and given the vehicles reputation in 6th Edition I never thought about buyin gon eof them. :D

I'll put it on my "purchase list" alongside several bikes.

 

I have two fiends to assemble, though ;)

 

Do you even need Abaddon? A Khornate Lord with an Axe of Fury and Sigil of Corruption is pretty horrifying too. It's not as if Chaos doesn't have options to turn our Lords into beatsticks. Khârn is another one, put him down, watch him get shot at; all for just over a ton and a half.

 

True but I wanted to use my personally converted Abaddon mini :(

[Captain Idaho]

Guys, don't take it so literal! I said at the end of the post the principle remained the same, regardless of individual preferences.

 

As an example; a couple Deepstriking Terminator units in the midst of the opponent, plus a couple jump pack/faster moving troops, and you create the same sort of saturation.

 

That said, no one will blame you for getting a Landraider - they rock.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Guys, don't take it so literal! I said at the end of the post the principle remained the same, regardless of individual preferences.

 

As an example; a couple Deepstriking Terminator units in the midst of the opponent, plus a couple jump pack/faster moving troops, and you create the same sort of saturation.

 

That said, no one will blame you for getting a Landraider - they rock.

 

I love the Land Raider fluff. Sadly there are several Necron players at local store and those gauss weapons are annoying. However they still need a 6 to glance and they have a 24" (1 shot), 12" (2 shots) threat range. 12" means next turn charge :teehee: