Abaddon and his "failed" Crusades

[Vesper]

Considering that Abaddon's ultimate goal is to take Terra, yes, he failed.

 

Obviously, otherwise there would be no Imperium for us to play as :yes:

 

How can he fail if he wasn't even trying ?

There's some kind or prophecy, in the Chaos dex, that says that the 13th is the last, the apocalyptic on that end with the death of the emperor at the hands of Abaddon.

[Kol Saresk]

From some recent BL fluff (I find it weird that a lot of people decry most BL novels as non-canon but flock to the feet of A-D-:lol: at one point that's pretty much what ol' Abby was planning to do the a subset of the NL during the 13th BC but they did it to him first.

It's called irony.

[KingDeath]

Abbadon is currently winning the ( still ongoing ) 13. Black Crusade so at least this one hasn't failed.

[Haranin]

Still irritates me - the BFG results were even close, the Imperium slaughtered the chaos fleets

[Kol Saresk]

But in the ground campaign, Chaos Slaughtered the Imperium by winning more planets, claiming more sectors and claiming Cadia itself. Chaos won the 13th Black Crusade. It has been retconned back to "ongoing" to maintain the peace.

[KingDeath]

Still irritates me - the BFG results were even close, the Imperium slaughtered the chaos fleets

 

The background book states that most of Quarren's fleet got lost in battle against the Blackstone Fortress over Cadia ( although the Imperials still seem to hold the advantage in that regard).

[Gree]

But in the ground campaign, Chaos Slaughtered the Imperium by winning more planets, claiming more sectors and claiming Cadia itself. Chaos won the 13th Black Crusade. It has been retconned back to "ongoing" to maintain the peace.

 

I realize this might be an unpopular statement, but I feel I must put forth my two cents on the matter.

 

Except the thing is, ground combat is rather irrelevant. Space is the ultimate high ground. What logically ensues is the the Imperium clamping down on each planet, cutting off renforcements and then moving in their reforcements while bombarding any Chaos positions on the surface. I say logically because GW basically had to write in random warp storms and magic warp portals in order to explain why Chaos forces even existed on the ground.

 

And yes, the if the campaign actually continued then the Imperium would have won, if only for the fact that loyalist Marine players outnumber every other army combined. Late in the campaign the Imperials were really starting to get their act together. GW the campaigh off just when the Imperials were starting a major counterattack by telling everybody to report their victories at the planets.

 

Still irritates me - the BFG results were even close, the Imperium slaughtered the chaos fleets

 

The background book states that most of Quarren's fleet got lost in battle against the Blackstone Fortress over Cadia ( although the Imperials still seem to hold the advantage in that regard).

 

Well in the actual campaign results, the Imperials annhilated the Chaos fleets in space. And I mean annhilated. Imperial space control was utterly overwhelming.

[Brother Ambroz]

But in the ground campaign, Chaos Slaughtered the Imperium by winning more planets, claiming more sectors and claiming Cadia itself. Chaos won the 13th Black Crusade. It has been retconned back to "ongoing" to maintain the peace.

 

I realize this might be an unpopular statement, but I feel I must put forth my two cents on the matter.

 

Except the thing is, ground combat is rather irrelevant. Space is the ultimate high ground. What logically ensues is the the Imperium clamping down on each planet, cutting off renforcements and then moving in their reforcements while bombarding any Chaos positions on the surface. I say logically because GW basically had to write in random warp storms and magic warp portals in order to explain why Chaos forces even existed on the ground.

 

And yes, the if the campaign actually continued then the Imperium would have won, if only for the fact that loyalist Marine players outnumber every other army combined. Late in the campaign the Imperials were really starting to get their act together. GW the campaigh off just when the Imperials were starting a major counterattack by telling everybody to report their victories at the planets.

 

Still irritates me - the BFG results were even close, the Imperium slaughtered the chaos fleets

 

The background book states that most of Quarren's fleet got lost in battle against the Blackstone Fortress over Cadia ( although the Imperials still seem to hold the advantage in that regard).

 

Well in the actual campaign results, the Imperials annhilated the Chaos fleets in space. And I mean annhilated. Imperial space control was utterly overwhelming.

 

Imperials outnumber every other race/faction at least 2:1 so in other words it wasn't even a fair fight to begin with.

 

OT: None of his crusades were failures because getting to Terra was never his true objective. Course you can't really tell the grunts on the ground that so he had to tell them something..... :)

[Vesper]

But in the ground campaign, Chaos Slaughtered the Imperium by winning more planets, claiming more sectors and claiming Cadia itself. Chaos won the 13th Black Crusade. It has been retconned back to "ongoing" to maintain the peace.

 

I realize this might be an unpopular statement, but I feel I must put forth my two cents on the matter.

 

Except the thing is, ground combat is rather irrelevant. Space is the ultimate high ground. What logically ensues is the the Imperium clamping down on each planet, cutting off renforcements and then moving in their reforcements while bombarding any Chaos positions on the surface. I say logically because GW basically had to write in random warp storms and magic warp portals in order to explain why Chaos forces even existed on the ground.

 

Technically speaking, the imperial fleet is pretty much useless. They can't exterminatus Cadia, every bombardment on the Chaos troops wouldn't be that effective, considering that the planet is the most awesome fortress in the whole galaxy, with underground hives, superfrotresses reinforced by IWs, ect. Then, the imperial fleet can't ressuply anywhere near, as most sectors fell to Chaos. Then, the imperium don't have any reinforcement to pour in, as they already had to remove many troops from other frontlines in order to respond to the 13th BC... Yet they lost.

[Gree]

They can't exterminatus Cadia,

 

They don't need to Exterminatus Cadia, just bombard Chaos troops. And they can do that just fine.

 

every bombardment on the Chaos troops wouldn't be that effective, considering that the planet is the most awesome fortress in the whole galaxy, with underground hives, superfrotresses reinforced by IWs, ect.

 

That does not apply to every other planet in the Cadian Sector. And even on Cadia, even if the Chaos forces somehow manage to gain control of the (probably damaged) orbital defenses, they're still fighting an uphill battle.

 

Then, the imperial fleet can't ressuply anywhere near, as most sectors fell to Chaos.

 

The Imperium can resupply just fine. After all, they have orbital superioirty. You know that in 40k ships to deliver supplies by space right? And the Imperium has completel control of that?

 

Let me pick an example. Sectors in the EoT campaign were rated according to control percentages: the higher, the more in control the Imperium is, the lower, the more the area has fallen into Chaos. I'm going to pick the Scarus sector as an example. From WD287:

 

Scarus (sector): Initial control 77%, Outcome 75%

Thracian Primaris (system): Initial control 90%, Outcome 90.6%

Elnaur Delta: Initial control 90%, Outcome 83.8%

Gudrun: Initial control 70%, Outcome 20.2%

Imbrium: Initial control 70%, Outcome 4.4%

Lethe Eleven: Initial control 70%, Outcome 0.1%

Mordax Prime: Initial control 65%, Outcome 0.4%

Nysa Stromolo: Initial control 65%, Outcome 19.6%

Thracian Primaris (planet): Initial Control 90%, Outcome 92.4%

Ulant: Initial control 60%, Outcome 14.8%

 

This is more or less the pattern you see in all the Imperial sectors. On the sector and system level, the Imperial Navy curbstomps all opposition. On the important worlds - the sector capitals like Thracian Primaris - again, the Imperium has stomped. On all the little tiny side worlds that no one cares about, Chaos has conquered everything.

 

Now as was admitted above, at the time they ended EoT, the tide was turning. The Imperial players were getting organised: if the campaign had gone for three or four more weeks, chances are it would have swung back in favour of the Imperium everywhere. Indeed, when this big Imperial counter-offensive happened, they started by telling everyone to report victories on the big, important worlds, like Thracian Primaris. (For other examples, Chinchare started at 45% control and ended at 95.2%; the four planets of the Agripinaa system were all dominated by the Imperials, and so on.)

 

And then if it continued, the demographics of the player base mean that the Imperium will win at everything, because loyalist Space Marines by themselves probably have as many players as every other army put together. That adds up to a hell of a lot of Imperial victories, but only once the internet community organising the Imperial side gets its act together and starts telling people where to report them all. At first they were very scattershot. For instance, the ruins of Caliban started at 50% control and ended at 100%, because every damn Dark Angel player in the world recruited their victories there. (The official results poked fun at this, mentioning that Caliban is utterly useless from a strategic perspective; but the Dark Angels fought for honour, and ensured that by war's end, no matter what happened at Cadia, no minion of Chaos would dare approach within a light year of Caliban ever again.)

 

Anyway, they ended the campaign there.

 

Now as for ''most sectors falling to Chaos'' I would contest that. I would then point out that eve if that was the case then the logical result is the Imperial Navy clamping down hard on those planets, performing Exterminatus on those completely lost (And the Imperium will use Exterminatus if nessecary) bombarding Chaos positions, interdicting Chaos renforcements and then rushing in Imperial renforcements on each planet. Space is the ultimate high ground.

 

Then, the imperium don't have any reinforcement to pour in, as they already had to remove many troops from other frontlines in order to respond to the 13th BC... Yet they lost.

 

They were moving in renforcements to crush the Chaos forces, but do you have any actual statement that they had no renforcements?

[Vesper]

They can't exterminatus Cadia,

 

They don't need to Exterminatus Cadia, just bombard Chaos troops. And they can do that just fine.

 

Not that simple. Otherwise Abaddon would just have bombarded the whole planet and moved on. Void Shields, Deep underground hives and bunkers, ect. Cadia is a fortress, and that fortress was in the hands of Chaos by the end of the EoT campaign.

 

 

This is more or less the pattern you see in all the Imperial sectors. On the sector and system level, the Imperial Navy curbstomps all opposition. On the important worlds - the sector capitals like Thracian Primaris - again, the Imperium has stomped. On all the little tiny side worlds that no one cares about, Chaos has conquered everything.

Absolutly, that is part of the clever use the Chaos players made of the mechanics of the campaign to, in the end, beat the billions SM players. On the fluff part, you'll notice that the "tiny side worlds that no one cares about" are often agriworlds and such, that are quite vital for the "important worlds". If there's nothing to eat on those worlds, that's gonna look nasty.

 

 

Now as was admitted above, at the time they ended EoT, the tide was turning. The Imperial players were getting organised: if the campaign had gone for three or four more weeks, chances are it would have swung back in favour of the Imperium everywhere. Indeed, when this big Imperial counter-offensive happened, they started by telling everyone to report victories on the big, important worlds, like Thracian Primaris. (For other examples, Chinchare started at 45% control and ended at 95.2%; the four planets of the Agripinaa system were all dominated by the Imperials, and so on.)

 

And then if it continued, the demographics of the player base mean that the Imperium will win at everything, because loyalist Space Marines by themselves probably have as many players as every other army put together. That adds up to a hell of a lot of Imperial victories, but only once the internet community organising the Imperial side gets its act together and starts telling people where to report them all. At first they were very scattershot. For instance, the ruins of Caliban started at 50% control and ended at 100%, because every damn Dark Angel player in the world recruited their victories there. (The official results poked fun at this, mentioning that Caliban is utterly useless from a strategic perspective; but the Dark Angels fought for honour, and ensured that by war's end, no matter what happened at Cadia, no minion of Chaos would dare approach within a light year of Caliban ever again.)

 

Totally agree, there's no way to beat the insane volume of SM players if the campaign doesn't balance that factor. Yet, Chaos used the utter lack of organisation of the SMs, managing to trigger some fluff stuff, and taking control of the famous "tiny side worlds that no one cared". And that led them to victory, as imperials woke up quite late.

 

Now as for ''most sectors falling to Chaos'' I would contest that. I would then point out that eve if that was the case then the logical result is the Imperial Navy clamping down hard on those planets, performing Exterminatus on those completely lost (And the Imperium will use Exterminatus if nessecary) bombarding Chaos positions, interdicting Chaos renforcements and then rushing in Imperial renforcements on each planet. Space is the ultimate high ground.

 

Then, the imperium don't have any reinforcement to pour in, as they already had to remove many troops from other frontlines in order to respond to the 13th BC... Yet they lost.

 

They were moving in renforcements to crush the Chaos forces, but do you have any actual statement that they had no renforcements?

 

That's not a black on white written statement. Just a logical conclusion. If the imperium had to remove all their forces from the Tau theater of war, they might very well have been doing that for others. The movement of military forces is like communicating vessels. Whatever the imperium throws at Chaos will lack somewhere else, they already threw a lot to Chaos, ending up losing. And I just think the imperium can't afford that by the end of the M41.

 

EDIT : Quite sad they came back to the whole "It's about to happen". I understand they want the 13th BC to be the last blow that will end the imperium, burning Terra and stuff... But I feel like it would have been cooler to expand on the EoT capaign Chaos victory with the imperium getting ready for the last battle. Or something.

[Gree]

They can't exterminatus Cadia,

 

They don't need to Exterminatus Cadia, just bombard Chaos troops. And they can do that just fine.

 

Not that simple. Otherwise Abaddon would just have bombarded the whole planet and moved on. Void Shields, Deep underground hives and bunkers, ect. Cadia is a fortress, and that fortress was in the hands of Chaos by the end of the EoT campaign.

 

He could not bombard Cadia because Cadia has their own ships and fleet. They have defenses like that on Cadia, but after the invasion I doubt very many of them will be intact. And even if the Chaos forces do control said defenses they're stuck on the world while the Imperial Navy kindly slams the door shut on the Cadian Gate space lanes and then prepared for the inevitable Imperial renforcements.

 

Absolutly, that is part of the clever use the Chaos players made of the mechanics of the campaign to, in the end, beat the billions SM players. On the fluff part, you'll notice that the "tiny side worlds that no one cares about" are often agriworlds and such, that are quite vital for the "important worlds". If there's nothing to eat on those worlds, that's gonna look nasty.

 

No most of said worlds were rather minor and lightly defended, hence them being minor. If they were unimportant then they would not be little side worlds.

 

And such rather lighty-defended worlds can rather easily be blockaded and taken by said complete orbital control. All of those worlds would have been retaken had the campaign continued.

 

That and the Imperium has other agri-worlds firmly outside Chaos's control? They got to that sector, but the Imperium has many more worlds beyond that in the Segmentum Obscruas.

 

Totally agree, there's no way to beat the insane volume of SM players if the campaign doesn't balance that factor. Yet, Chaos used the utter lack of organisation of the SMs, managing to trigger some fluff stuff, and taking control of the famous "tiny side worlds that no one cared". A that led them to victory, as imperials woke up quite late.

 

That led to a technical victory as GW stepped in before the Imperial players were about to smash in Abaddon's forces. They also ignored the logical long-term implications and basically ignored the massive consequences of Imperial dominiance in the space lanes. What then logically happens is the Imperial Navy cutting up Abaddon's Black Crusade, bombarding his troops and then rushing in Imperial renforcements to take worlds.

 

That's not a black on white written statement. Just a logical conclusion. If the imperium had to remove all their forces from the Tau theater of war, they might very well have been doing that for others. The movement of military forces is like communicating vessels. Whatever the imperium throws at Chaos will lack somewhere else, they already threw a lot to Chaos, ending up losing. And I just think the imperium can't afford that by the end of the M41.

 

Then it's quite fortunate they did't really end up losing, at least not from a logical perspective. Space superioirty means that Chaos crusade is not going anywhere and most of the planets Abaddon took are going to be retaken or isolated shortly.

 

Even the Newsletter points out that Abaddon's forces are effectively ground to a halt and isolated.

 

"Tiny patrols, at first hopelessly outnumbered and often overwhelmed by Abaddon's invasion, mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapiers committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces. Where they had once failed to contain Abaddon's fleets as they emerged from the Eye. they now did just that to Abaddon's forces across Cadia. Agnpmaa and a dozen other sectors, isolating them completely from one another. Abaddon's conquest of the worlds outlying the Eye of Terror may be almost complete, but by the grace of the Imperial Navy, few reinforcements were able to bolster his forces toward the end of the campaign. Some have said that it is for this reason alone Cadia still belongs in the material realm."-Death by a Thousand Cuts.

 

And no, we see Imperials moving regiments from other threaters, but at the same time we do know the Imperium is also involved in many other wars just fine. And once the Black Crusade is safely repelled all those renforcments are going to go back. Then again you also assumed all those renforcments have actually arrived yet.

[Vesper]

And no, we see Imperials moving regimentws from other threaters, but at the same time we do know the Imperium is also involved in many other wars just fine. And once the Black Crusade is safely repelled all those renforcments are going to go back. Then again you also assumed all those renforcments have actually arrived yet.

 

[i stop the quoting cascade, starting to get huge]

 

The imperium isn't doing good. It's losing ground everywhere. You make a fair point with renforcments, but I could argue that Chaos is unleashed, as they only commited three fleets, and that there's plenty of other warbands / war fleets that have yet to enter the fray.

You're quite wrong with that :

He could not bombard Cadia because Cadia has their own ships and fleet. They have defenses like that on Cadia, but after the invasion I doubt very many of them will be intact.

The imperial fleet was beat at the beggining of the campaign. Abaddon did bombard Cadia, even with a Blackstone Fortress. But that's meaningless without a ground assault. And Chaos forces along with summoned daemons, warp portals and stuff... Well, they're ok.

 

That led to a technical victory as GW stepped in before the Imperial players were about to smash in Abaddon's forces.

 

Wrong again, that's a victory because imperial players weren't able to turn the tide of battle before the end of the campaign. Subtle, yet important difference... Yet meaningless as we're back at "It's about to happen".

[Gree]

The imperium isn't doing good. It's losing ground everywhere. You make a fair point with renforcments, but I could argue that Chaos is unleashed, as they only commited three fleets, and that there's plenty of other warbands / war fleets that have yet to enter the fray.

 

It is explictly pointed out in the final Newsletter that the Imperial Navy had Abaddon's forces in a chokehold with virtually no renforcements getting to the worlds he took and his forces are isolated across a dozen sectors. Even if they do have more renforcements they're not going to be able to get to said worlds. What happens is the Imperial navy rains down orbital death on the Chaos troops below, cuts off Chaos reinforcements and rushes in Imperial reinforcements. Any Chaos troops that survive the orbital rain of fire will be essentially huddled up in defensive positions without any real chance of mobility. This does not only include Cadia, it includes all of the other worlds in the Cadia Sector and surrounding Sectors as well.

 

And where does it say Chaos only commited three fleets?

 

And yes, it's losing ground around the Eye at first, but compared to the rest of the Segmentum and the Imperial coutnerattack, it's a temporary gain for Chaos that won't last long. Chaos only really barely edged out the Imperium on the ground for a minor victory. Orbital control for the Imperium means that they effectively have a long-term strategic victory though.

 

The imperial fleet was beat at the beggining of the campaign. Abaddon did bombard Cadia, even with a Blackstone Fortress. But that's meaningless without a ground assault. And Chaos forces along with summoned daemons, warp portals and stuff... Well, they're ok.

 

Chaos had victory in the first part of the campaign, but it was not like they just walked in without any opposition. And Abaddon wants to take Cadia intact.

 

But that does not matter. If those Chaos troops are stuck on Cadia then they're useless. As long as the Imperium controls the Cadian Gate (And they do) then they essentially can slam the door shut on any further troops that come out of the Eye and move in Imperial renforcements when needed.

 

Wrong again, that's a victory because imperial players weren't able to turn the tide of battle before the end of the campaign. Subtle, yet important difference... Yet meaningless as we're back at "It's about to happen".

 

No I am correct. It is a victory because GW rescued the Chaos forces before the inevitable conclusion.

 

I do not deny that GW proclaimed it a chaos victory before the inevitable Imperial counterattack. I do point out that said Chaos victory is utterly meaningless and that in actual reality it was pretty much going to be a long term Imperial strategic victory, even in-universe.

[Vesper]

The imperium isn't doing good. It's losing ground everywhere. You make a fair point with renforcments, but I could argue that Chaos is unleashed, as they only commited three fleets, and that there's plenty of other warbands / war fleets that have yet to enter the fray.

 

It is explictly pointed out in the final Newsletter that the Imperial Navy had Abaddon's forces in a chokehold with virtually no renforcements getting to the worlds he took and his forces are isolated across a dozen sectors. Even if they do have more renforcements they're not going to be able to get to said worlds. What happens is the Imperial navy rains down orbital death on the Chaos troops below, cuts off Chaos reinforcements and rushes in Imperial reinforcements. Any Chaos troops that survive the orbital rain of fire will be essentially huddled up in defensive positions without any real chance of mobility. This does not only include Cadia, it includes all of the other worlds in the Cadia Sector and surrounding Sectors as well.

 

And where does it say Chaos only commited three fleets?

 

The order of battle, three fleets : those of Abaddon, Typhus and Kossolax the Foresworn.

 

 

And yes, it's losing ground around the Eye at first, but compared to the rest of the Segmentum and the Imperial coutnerattack, it's a temporary gain for Chaos that won't last long. Chaos only really barely edged out the Imperium on the ground for a minor victory. Orbital control for the Imperium means that they effectively have a long-term strategic victory though.

 

I meant galaxy wide.

 

Wrong again, that's a victory because imperial players weren't able to turn the tide of battle before the end of the campaign. Subtle, yet important difference... Yet meaningless as we're back at "It's about to happen".

 

No I am correct. It is a victory because GW rescued the Chaos forces before the inevitable conclusion.

 

Don't remember quite well, did the campaign had a fixed duration from the start ? Don't have my WDs close to me.

 

On the rest, I agree to disagree.

[Lexington]

This is why I'm glad GW retconned the 13th Black Crusade back to its beginnings. The end was weird and illogical. Much better to have doom on the doorstep, rather than have it barge in, pee on the silverware, and scurry away cackling.

[Kol Saresk]

The Medusa 5 campaign happened after the 13th Crusade right? And since Medusa V happened all the way in the Ultima Segmentum and the charge was led by one of Abaddon's lieutenants, that would mean that the Cadian Gate was still open. Which means that technically, the background fluff followed the overall victory of the Chaos forces which means that technically, Chaos did win the 13th Crusade until it was retconned back to "Just starting". So Abaddon has still yet to fail in achieving an objective.

[Gree]

The order of battle, three fleets : those of Abaddon, Typhus and Kossolax the Foresworn.

 

Three fleets mentioned in the Order of Battle, but any other fluff description puts out also points out the huge fleets of every other Chaos warlord that also took part. The background had made it quite clear just how many forces Abaddon is throwing at the Cadian Gate. Actually as I understand it the Order of Battle only notes the forces present at the start of the conflict. It should be clear by the end of the Crusade Chaos has solidly lost the void war.

 

I meant galaxy wide.

 

The Imperium is still mostly intact, or it was mostly intact at the time of the campaign. With space control those Chaos forces are pretty much going nowhere and the Imperium's counterattack is going to be made much easier because of that.

 

On the rest, I agree to disagree.

 

No, I will keep on refuting said arguments and pointing out the logical problems in said assertions.

[Gree]

The Medusa 5 campaign happened after the 13th Crusade right? And since Medusa V happened all the way in the Ultima Segmentum and the charge was led by one of Abaddon's lieutenants, that would mean that the Cadian Gate was still open. Which means that technically, the background fluff followed the overall victory of the Chaos forces which means that technically, Chaos did win the 13th Crusade until it was retconned back to "Just starting". So Abaddon has still yet to fail in achieving an objective.

 

Just because a few Chaos ships managed to slip past and get to Medusa V doesn't really change the rest of the fluff. The Imperium still controls the space lanes and still has Abaddon's forces in a chokehold. It's not suprising some forces could slip past, but by and large the Chaos forces are firmly stuck and cut off under the guns of the Imperial Navy.

 

But then again, even before this current Codex, GW largely swept the Eye of Terror campaigh under the rug. So the Medusa War ignoring the 13th Black Crusade matters little.

[Vesper]

I meant galaxy wide.

 

The Imperium is still mostly intact, or it was mostly intact at the time of the campaign. With space control those Chaos forces are pretty much going nowhere and the Imperium's counterattack is going to be made much easier because of that.

 

The imperium is broken, with Necrons empires growing inside it, Tau expansions, Tyranids invasions, Orks infestations, Chaos uprisings, Daemonics incusions, random planetary/sector secession, random xenos stuff. Seeing the imperium as one unified bubble with bad guys knocking at the door is not true to the fluff, as 95% of said bad guys grow from the rotting corpse that is the imperium (which mirrors the emperor's body). They are huge parts of segmentums that are just out of imperial control. So nope, the imperium is in a pretty bad shape. It's not called the time of the Ending for nothing.

 

On the rest, I agree to disagree.

 

I don't. I will keep on refuting said arguments and pointing out the logical problems in said assertions.

You keep refuting the fact that Chaos forces can hide in Cadia's unbreakable fortifications, summoning daemons, supplying and reiforcing themselves via Warp portals ? Well, alright, I guess.

[Gree]

The imperium is broken, with Necrons empires growing inside it, Tau expansions, Tyranids invasions, Orks infestations, Chaos uprisings, Daemonics incusions, random planetary/sector secession, random xenos stuff. Seeing the imperium as one unified bubble with bad guys knocking at the door is not true to the fluff, as 95% of said bad guys grow from the rotting corpse that is the imperium (which mirrors the emperor's body). They are huge parts of segmentums that are just out of imperial control. So nope, the imperium is in a pretty bad shape. It's not called the time of the Ending for nothing.

 

I am ignoring all the Time of Ending stuff. It is not relevant as none of it was written when the Eye of Terror Campaign was done. I am taking events int he context of how it was then.

 

And all that Time of Ending stuff is pretty much disproven by the Cain novels, which are written in-universe by Cain after the ''Time of Ending.''

 

You keep refuting the fact that Chaos forces can hide in Cadia's unbreakable fortifications, summoning daemons and supplying and reiforcing themselves via Warp portals ? Well, alright, I guess.

 

No, I am refuting the fact that Chaos forces will survive to do much of anything on any other worlds, or that said forces on Cadia will be of much use when the Cadian Gate itself is slammed shut.

[Kol Saresk]

You already said that enough Chaos ships traveling from the Eye in the Segmentum Obscuras to Medusa V in the Ultima Segmentum couldn't be used to show how events went. So either you can't use Cain to show the "End Times" or "lack thereof" or we can use the Medusa V campaign because both happened after the EoT campaign. This is not turning into the Alpha Legion thread where you are taking only the parts you want to hear and discarding the rest.

[Gree]

You already said that enough Chaos ships traveling from the Eye in the Segmentum Obscuras to Medusa V in the Ultima Segmentum couldn't be used to show how events went. So either you can't use Cain to show the "End Times" or "lack thereof" or we can use the Medusa V campaign because both happened after the EoT campaign.

 

One can easily point out that it's not impossible for a few ships to get past the Chaos blockade and participate in Medsua V. The two events are not nessecarily contradictory. Meanwhile it's much harder to reconcile Cain and the ''Time of Ending.''. So no, the two comparisons are not the same at all. So yes I can use that just fine.

 

This is not turning into the Alpha Legion thread where you are taking only the parts you want to hear and discarding the rest.

 

Oh, that's rich coming from you of all people. I certainly was not doing that in said thread. Or is this just your attempt to bring the results of a completely different topic to another unrelated topic?

[Lay]

Except the thing is, ground combat is rather irrelevant. Space is the ultimate high ground. What logically ensues is the the Imperium clamping down on each planet, cutting off renforcements and then moving in their reforcements while bombarding any Chaos positions on the surface. I say logically because GW basically had to write in random warp storms and magic warp portals in order to explain why Chaos forces even existed on the ground.

The warp storm plot point was not a last minute cop out. It first came up in week 5 of the campaign and was triggered by an event card. Later it was used to define the battlefield for both sides in the final stage of the campaign - before Chaos came out as the victor.

In the end the Imperium can still access this small area - a total of 5 sectors. The rest however, is pretty much lost.

 

Late in the campaign the Imperials were really starting to get their act together. GW the campaigh off just when the Imperials were starting a major counterattack by telling everybody to report their victories at the planets.

It's not like they didn't know when the campaign was going to end. :lol:

[Kol Saresk]

Late in the campaign the Imperials were really starting to get their act together. GW the campaigh off just when the Imperials were starting a major counterattack by telling everybody to report their victories at the planets.

It's not like they didn't know when the campaign was going to end. :D

It obviously would have been won by the obvious Imperial Counterattack because the Imperium always win. Without a doubt.