Abaddon and his "failed" Crusades

[Gree]

The warp storm plot point was not a last minute cop out. It first came up in week 5 of the campaign and was triggered by an event card. Later it was used to define the battlefield for both sides in the final stage of the campaign - before Chaos came out as the victor.

 

I never said it came at the last minute, just that it was simply at cop out. It coming in at Week 5 matters little. With orbital superioirty it's a plot device to explain why Abaddon's forces even continue to exist groundside.

 

In the end the Imperium can still access this small area - a total of 5 sectors. The rest however, is pretty much lost.

 

The Newsletter as I point out, has the Navy pretty much chop up Abaddon's forces and have them utterly isolated from each other.

 

It's not like they didn't know when the campaign was going to end. ;)

 

Irelevant. This ''victory'' is not really much of a victory when the logical conclusion of what happens shortly after is each Chaos force being cut off, the Cadian Gate slammed shut and the Imperial Navy moving with commendable speed to bring renforcements in a counterattack.

 

It obviously would have been won by the obvious Imperial Counterattack because the Imperium always win. Without a doubt.

 

No, they would win because orbital superiority is such a massive advantage. The Imperial Navy with complete control of the space generally is going to dominate strategically and wipe out Chaos forces. It's a conflict that ends with the Imperial Navy clamping down tightly on the Chaos supply lines and cutting off and isolating Chaos on the ground. Any exposed Chaos troops (probably a great deal on many minor worlds) will be annihilated from orbit. Chaos reinforcements will be interdicted and Imperial reinforcements will move in. On each planet the Imperium will have both orbital firepower and strategic mobility. Those are big advantages.

[Vesper]

It's not like they didn't know when the campaign was going to end. ;)

 

Irelevant. This ''victory'' is not really much of a victory when the logical conclusion of what happens shortly after is each Chaos force being cut off, the Cadian Gate slammed shut and the Imperial Navy moving with commendable speed to bring renforcements in a counterattack.

 

You're assuming everything will go well. Who would have thought the imperial navy could come back after so many heavy losses ? Ex : the Chaos forces create warp portals, and are reinforced. Or, Chaos forces turn the worlds they control into daemon worlds. Or, Abaddon breaks the pylons of Cadia, the Eye grows at will (much to the dismay of the imperial fleet). GW left the fighting ongoing by the end of the campaign, because they just can't give a clear victory to one side, as it would be a bad marketing move, making SM look bad. In the end, the only thing we know for sure is that Chaos ended up getting a minor victory over the imperium, thanks to their (our, as I played the campaign) clever use of the mechanics, and to the imperial players that were unable to react swiftly enough.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

There was one in the 12th Crusade that was destroyed and there was a second one in the Thirteenth Crusade. Before the retcon from "Success" to "Gaining momentum", it had been disabled in orbit over a planet that was between the Eye of Terror and Terra.

 

So that would be the Eye of Terra then?

[Gree]

You're assuming everything will go well. Who would have thought the imperial navy could come back after so many heavy losses ? Ex : the Chaos forces create warp portals, and are reinforced. Or, Chaos forces turn the worlds they control into daemon worlds. Or, Abaddon breaks the pylons of Cadia, the Eye grows at will (much to the dismay of the imperial fleet). GW left the fighting ongoing by the end of the campaign, because they just can't give a clear victory to one side, as it would be a bad marketing move, making SM look bad. In the end, the only thing we know for sure is that Chaos ended up getting a minor victory over the imperium, thanks to their (our, as I played the campaign) clever use of the mechanics, and to the imperial players that were unable to react swiftly enough.

 

I am assuming everything will go well because of said complete space control. Now, in BFG, well, the Imperium brutally murdered everyone else. It was, as I like to say, a curbstomp. Chaos fleets could not compete at all. If you look at the control percentages at the end of the campaign - and they're all listed in WD287 - the Imperium had complete space superiority everywhere.

 

Now, GW didn't want the games of the BFG players to render everyone else's games irrelevant, even though that is the logical result of this. The Imperial Navy murders everything: then they make targeted bombardments of key Chaos positions on the worlds near the Eye, they interdict and blow up any Chaos reinforcements, and they flood in Imperial reinforcements, which hunt down and crush Chaos stragglers on the planets, they perform Exterminatus on any worlds utterly lost to Chaos. This is how interstellar warfare works generally in this setting. The side with the orbital high ground just wins.

 

The Imperium controls the Cadian Gateway. They control a good chunk of Cadia, can reinforce and will eventually retake the planet as the only thing that is keeping them from doing it is warp storms which they cannot keep up forever. The Cadian Gate is still the only stable route in and out of the EOT, the expansion of the EOT doesn't mean a damn thing as you still cannot exit or enter it at anything but a couple of points, the Gateway being the only stable one...that the Imperium still controls with an iron fist.

 

And can you get me a quote on this ''warp portals thing''?

[Lay]

Irelevant. This ''victory'' is not really much of a victory...

Sure, the real victory will be liberation of a whooping 5 sectors after losing all others.

[Gree]

Irelevant. This ''victory'' is not really much of a victory...

Sure, the real victory will be liberation of a whooping 5 sectors after losing all others.

 

I have have a quote of the Imperial Navy pretty much stopping Abaddon cold in his tracks from the final summary.

 

"Tiny patrols, at first hopelessly outnumbered and often overwhelmed by Abaddon's invasion, mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapiers committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces. Where they had once failed to contain Abaddon's fleets as they emerged from the Eye. they now did just that to Abaddon's forces across Cadia. Agnpmaa and a dozen other sectors, isolating them completely from one another. Abaddon's conquest of the worlds outlying the Eye of Terror may be almost complete, but by the grace of the Imperial Navy, few reinforcements were able to bolster his forces toward the end of the campaign. Some have said that it is for this reason alone Cadia still belongs in the material realm."-Newsletter.

 

The logical result of that complete space control, is an eventual strategic Imperial victory.The fact that the Chaos Forces managed to land on a number of planets outside the eye is not inconsequential, but they are cut off with the Imperium throwing massive Crusade level forces at them, its only a matter of time before the systems are retaken and we've already seen elements of this dealt with, parts of the Chaos forces that made it out having been dealt with already.

 

See the Cain novels. Cain himself deals with a Chaos raider fleet and afterwords it's noted the 13th Black Crusade was ultimately defeated and contained.

[Vesper]

See the Cain novels. Cain himself deals with a Chaos raider fleet and afterwords it's noted the 13th Black Crusade was ultimately defeated and contained.

 

Wow, do you have a quote of that ?

T'would be pretty strange for a writer to go all crazy like that (well, it's BL, so I would not be that surprised, yet ADB said a multiple time the Cadian gate has been breached ant that Chaos was roaming free).

[Lay]

The logical result of that complete space control, is an eventual strategic Imperial victory.The fact that the Chaos Forces managed to land on a number of planets outside the eye is not inconsequential, but they are cut off with the Imperium throwing massive Crusade level forces at them, its only a matter of time before the systems are retaken and we've already seen elements of this dealt with, parts of the Chaos forces that made it out having been dealt with already.

You're missing the point. Every sector except Cadia, Agripinaa, Belis Corona, Scarus and Chinchare is covered in warp storms that make inter-system travel impossible. If sending entire crusades into warp storms is the best the Imperium can do, then by all means let them.

 

Can't comment on the Cain Novels though. I know that they speak of the 13th BC as a past event, but I wasn't aware that they describe in what condition the area surrounding the Gate is.

[Gree]

See the Cain novels. Cain himself deals with a Chaos raider fleet and afterwords it's noted the 13th Black Crusade was ultimately defeated and contained.

 

Wow, do you have a quote of that ?

 

Yes, certainly.

 

"The forty first millennium ended, like so many of its predecessors, in widespread conflict; although itʹs probably fair to saythat seldom in the history of the Imperium has humanity found itself beset by so many enemies, on so many sides. The broad brushstrokes of most popular accounts have tended to parcel up the various war zones with unjustified neatness, however, blurring themanner in which successive crises interacted with one another, and in some cases overlapped.

Nowhere is this misconception more egregious than in the popular image of the two principal battlefronts of the time: the so‐called Black Crusade, and the Tyrannic wars. In the minds of most interested laymen, the Black Crusade was largely confined to the aptly named Segmentum Obscurus, while the tyranid hive fleets constituted a threat solely to the systems of the Eastern Arm. In reality, the picture was a great deal more confused, with the raiding fleets of the Great Enemy striking far from the main battleground around the Cadian Gate and its adjacent sectors. At least one such flotilla is reliably recorded as being active as far to the East as the Damocles Gulf, close to what was then the border of the Tau Empire, although why it should have been there, and the circumstances of its eventual defeat, remain shrouded in conjecture and debate.

I propose to devote a modest chapter to the affair, however, since one thing about it that is beyond dispute is the involvement of thenear‐legendary hero Ciaphas Cain, whose stalwart defence of the planet Perlia remains justifiably celebrated even today.:Pg.112 (E-Book) Cain's Last Stand

 

 

The most recent date in the Cain novels is 127.M42 and everyone is still alive and the Imperium is pretty fine. We have, from Ciaphas Cain that they concentrate on Cadia and a few adjacent sectors with the exception of a few Raider Fleets like the piddly one in Cain's Last Stand. Yes some slip by, but it is nothing horrible and certainly not "the dam in broken!!!! CHAOS!!!!". That and and Amberley refers to the Crusade as "those harsh and terrifying times" implying they defeated it and the Black Crusade is long gone.

 

Now can you give me the quote I asked for?

[Kol Saresk]

IIRC, the last time the Imperium launched a Crusade into the Eye, it ended with a loss of 29 Space Marine Chapters and a severe beating to the one Chapter that got out without being corrupted.

[Gree]

The logical result of that complete space control, is an eventual strategic Imperial victory.The fact that the Chaos Forces managed to land on a number of planets outside the eye is not inconsequential, but they are cut off with the Imperium throwing massive Crusade level forces at them, its only a matter of time before the systems are retaken and we've already seen elements of this dealt with, parts of the Chaos forces that made it out having been dealt with already.

You're missing the point. Every sector except Cadia, Agripinaa, Belis Corona, Scarus and Chinchare is covered in warp storms that make inter-system travel impossible. If sending entire crusades into warp storms is the best the Imperium can do, then by all means let them.

 

They how can the Imperium have an ''ironclad ring'' around Abaddon's troops in a ''dozen other sectors''?

[Kol Saresk]

Probably the sectors outside of the Cadian Gate. It never said that those sectors were on the Eye-side of the Gate now did it?

[Gree]

Probably the sectors outside of the Cadian Gate. It never said that those sectors were on the Eye-side of the Gate now did it?

 

They did. It's mentioned that those are the worlds that Abaddon took just outside the Eye, but he can't renforce them at all because of the Imperial Navy is blocking everything.

 

T'would be pretty strange for a writer to go all crazy like that (well, it's BL, so I would not be that surprised, yet ADB said a multiple time the Cadian gate has been breached ant that Chaos was roaming free).

 

And A D-B's sig notes that everything he says is just his personal opinion that does not reflect on GW's stance at all. That and said opinion is rather contradicted by the actual results.

[Vesper]

Now can you give me the quote I asked for?

 

Hell no, for the simple reason there isn't any in the newsletter, but as some already existed, I consider that it's far from impossible to see some in a Black Crusade.

[Gree]

Now can you give me the quote I asked for?

 

Hell no, for the simple reason there isn't any in the newsletter, but as some already existed, I consider that it's far from impossible to see some in a Black Crusade.

 

Ah, so you can't actually support your assertion at all apart from ''Well it seems likely...''

 

No, I'm sorry but that's not a very solid argument.

[Vesper]

Now can you give me the quote I asked for?

 

Hell no, for the simple reason there isn't any in the newsletter, but as some already existed, I consider that it's far from impossible to see some in a Black Crusade.

 

Ah, so you can't actually support your assertion at all apart from ''Well it seems likely...''

 

No, I'm sorry but that's not a very solid argument.

 

That's not meant to be a solid argument, just a supposition. As it exists, it is likely.

[Lay]

They how can the Imperium have an ''ironclad ring'' around Abaddon's troops in a ''dozen other sectors''?

They do control the space lanes, which is where they can isolate the Chaos forces. They still can't approach most worlds, not even on an inter-system level. Even the very text you posted states that "Abaddon's conquest of the worlds outlying the Eye of Terror may be almost complete".

 

Now how's the Imperium going to push back warp storms and where do the Cain novels describe the situation of the Cadian gate?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Gree. From page 94 of The 13th Black Crusade sourcebook by Andy Hoare, from the final entry of the personal journal of Castellan Creed's adjutant-general:

 

Abaddon's hordes have gained a foothold upon the worlds of Man, and not one of us can see them being repelled for many years to come. Abaddon and his council of three have outmaneuvered and out-fought us at almost every turn...

 

Total war is come to Segmentum Obscuras, and all hopes of repelling the invaders as now dashed. We must now consolidate our grip upon those worlds we still hold, and prepare to fight a war that will not end within the lifetime of any of us... [Abaddon] has breached the Cadian Gate, and none can now hold back the inexorable tide of Chaos unleashed upon the Imperium of Man.

 

 

Since this was written after the close of the campaign, I put more stock in what it says than what the weekly newsletter have to say about matters, since this is the official history of the Crusade.

[Azekai]

I am not sure why we continue to endlessly debate this garbage. All the recent fluff is ignoring the EoT campaign completely and acts as though the 13th Black Crusade is about to begin. GW doesn't care about who controlled what several years ago- they are never going to let anything 'move on' because the one-minute-to-midnight thing is part of the setting. 40k is not an ongoing series of events like a soap opera.

[Gree]

Gree. From page 94 of The 13th Black Crusade sourcebook by Andy Hoare, from the final entry of the personal journal of Castellan Creed's adjutant-general:

 

Abaddon's hordes have gained a foothold upon the worlds of Man, and not one of us can see them being repelled for many years to come. Abaddon and his council of three have outmaneuvered and out-fought us at almost every turn...

 

Total war is come to Segmentum Obscuras, and all hopes of repelling the invaders as now dashed. We must now consolidate our grip upon those worlds we still hold, and prepare to fight a war that will not end within the lifetime of any of us... [Abaddon] has breached the Cadian Gate, and none can now hold back the inexorable tide of Chaos unleashed upon the Imperium of Man.

 

 

Since this was written after the close of the campaign, I put more stock in what it says than what the weekly newsletter have to say about matters, since this is the official history of the Crusade.

 

You do realize that was reprinted from the newsletter right? And that's basically contradicted by the results we got?

 

They still can't approach most worlds, not even on an inter-system level. Even the very text you posted states that "Abaddon's conquest of the worlds outlying the Eye of Terror may be almost complete".

 

And why can't they approach the worlds? What about any part of my statement says that?

 

Now how's the Imperium going to push back warp storms

 

Warp storms can't last forever.

 

where do the Cain novels describe the situation of the Cadian gate?

 

Implied to be fine as the Imperium is still standing. The Imperium is evidently rather fine from that.

[Kol Saresk]

"Tiny patrols, at first hopelessly outnumbered and often overwhelmed by Abaddon's invasion, mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces. Where they had once failed to contain Abaddon's fleets as they emerged from the Eye. They now did just that to Abaddon's forces across Cadia, Agnpmaa and a dozen other sectors, isolating them completely from one another. Abaddon's conquest of the worlds outlying the Eye of Terror may be almost complete, but by the grace of the Imperial Navy, few reinforcements were able to bolster his forces toward the end of the campaign. Some have said that it is for this reason alone Cadia still belongs in the material realm."-Newsletter.

Skip Speculation of what the logical result is. Let's look at the facts. This says that the patrols that made up the Navy around the Eye were at first scattered when Abaddon came through. They reorganized. Now they are containing the Black Crusade in the dozens of sectors that the forces of Chaos conquered and isolated each sector from the other.(Put in bold) Abaddon's conquest of the worlds surrounding the Eye is almost complete. The Imperial Navy is keeping reinforcements from reaching him however. And because of the lack of reinforcements, this is why Cadia still stands in the material realm. Have I accurately read this?

 

 

 

 

"The forty first millennium ended, like so many of its predecessors, in widespread conflict; although itʹs probably fair to say that seldom in the history of the Imperium has humanity found itself beset by so many enemies, on so many sides. The broad brushstrokes of most popular accounts have tended to parcel up the various war zones with unjustified neatness, however, blurring the manner in which successive crises interacted with one another, and in some cases overlapped.

Nowhere is this misconception more egregious than in the popular image of the two principal battlefronts of the time: the so‐called Black Crusade, and the Tyrannic wars. In the minds of most interested laymen, the Black Crusade was largely confined to the aptly named Segmentum Obscurus, while the tyranid hive fleets constituted a threat solely to the systems of the Eastern Arm. In reality, the picture was a great deal more confused, with the raiding fleets of the Great Enemy striking far from the main battleground around the Cadian Gate and its adjacent sectors. At least one such flotilla is reliably recorded as being active as far to the East as the Damocles Gulf, close to what was then the border of the Tau Empire, although why it should have been there, and the circumstances of its eventual defeat, remain shrouded in conjecture and debate.

I propose to devote a modest chapter to the affair, however, since one thing about it that is beyond dispute is the involvement of the near‐legendary hero Ciaphas Cain, whose stalwart defence of the planet Perlia remains justifiably celebrated even today.:Pg.112 (E-Book) Cain's Last Stand

Now let's see if I'm reading this one right. The Forty-First Millennium ended in widesread conflict, but it is rare that the Imperium has had so many enemies at one time. Most historical accounts makes the conflicts seem much more organized than they actually are and as a result, hides how the different conflicts interacted with each other and even overlapped in some cases.

 

This idea has never been more wrong(egregious has a meaning of "conspicuously bad" according to Merriam-Webster) than when it comes to the Black Crusade and the Tyrannic Wars. People who are not experts on the matter,(laymen) believe that Black Crusade was contained to the entire Segmentum Obscurus(that's actually bigger than the Eye IIRC) and the Tyranid fleets only threatened the Eastern Arm of the Imperium. In reality, the raiding fleets of the Great Enemy reacched much farther than the battleground around the Cadian Gate and its adjacent Sectors. One such fleet, is known beyond a doubt to have reached all the way to the Damocles Gulf far in the Eastern Fringe, right next to the Tau Empire. Although why it was there and how it was defeated is either not known or recorded. What is known is that the involvement of Ciaphas Cain in the defense of the planet Perlia is still celebrated to this day.

 

 

Is that reading correct?

[Gree]

Skip Speculation of what the logical result is. Let's look at the facts. This says that the patrols that made up the Navy around the Eye were at first scattered when Abaddon came through. They reorganized. Now they are containing the Black Crusade in the dozens of sectors that the forces of Chaos conquered and isolated each sector from the other.(Put in bold) Abaddon's conquest of the worlds surrounding the Eye is almost complete. The Imperial Navy is keeping reinforcements from reaching him however. And because of the lack of reinforcements, this is why Cadia still stands in the material realm. Have I accurately read this?

 

Are you asking me or yourself?

 

Yes, Abaddon got gains early on. Then the navy stopped him cold and his forces are isolated and contained.

 

Now let's see if I'm reading this one right. The Forty-First Millennium ended in widesread conflict, but it is rare that the Imperium has had so many enemies at one time. Most historical accounts makes the conflicts seem much more organized than they actually are and as a result, hides how the different conflicts interacted with each other and even overlapped in some cases.

 

This idea has never been more wrong(egregious has a meaning of "conspicuously bad" according to Merriam-Webster) than when it comes to the Black Crusade and the Tyrannic Wars. People who are not experts on the matter,(laymen) believe that Black Crusade was contained to the entire Segmentum Obscurus(that's actually bigger than the Eye IIRC) and the Tyranid fleets only threatened the Eastern Arm of the Imperium. In reality, the raiding fleets of the Great Enemy reacched much farther than the battleground around the Cadian Gate and its adjacent Sectors. One such fleet, is known beyond a doubt to have reached all the way to the Damocles Gulf far in the Eastern Fringe, right next to the Tau Empire. Although why it was there and how it was defeated is either not known or recorded. What is known is that the involvement of Ciaphas Cain in the defense of the planet Perlia is still celebrated to this day.

 

 

Is that reading correct?

 

Yes, the Black Crusades and the Tyrannic wars were a bit more wide spread than people gave them credit before. But that does not mean the Black Crusade was contained in the entire Segmentum Obscuras, just that it was contained in the Segmentum Obscuras. The passage basically points out that those two conflicts were a bit larger reaching than laymen would assume, but they were dealt in the past and were largely contained in this areas.

[Kol Saresk]

Yes, Abaddon got gains early on. Then the navy stopped him cold and his forces are isolated and contained.

So they contained him but they have not defeated him then? At that point in time?

 

 

Yes, the Black Crusades and the Tyrannic wars were a bit more wide spread than people gave them credit before. But that does not mean the Black Crusade was contained in the entire Segmentum Obscuras, just that it was contained in the Segmentum Obscuras. The passage basically points out that those two conflicts were a bit larger reaching than laymen would assume, but they were dealt in the past and were largely contained in this areas.

I'm a little confused on how the Black Crusade was and wasn't contained in the Segmentum Obscurus. Could you clarify?

 

Where is the conclusion to either event listed? The only conclusion listed is the defeat of oneChaos Raiding Fleet. That reached all the way to the Damocles Gulf.

EDIT: I'm asking because I saw no definitive conclusion listed in the context. There is a chance I missed it and if so, would like you to point it out for me. To make sure we're on the same page.

 

If the objective of the 13th Black Crusade was just to open the Cadian Gate, then by the account from Cain's Last Stand, it succeeded since the raiding fleets were able to leave the Segmentum Obscurus and scatter across the galaxy.

[Gree]

So they contained him but they have not defeated him then? At that point in time?

 

It will he shortly. They have orbital superioirty. The logical result is as I have stated above. The Imperial fleet bombards worlds, interdicts Chaos renforcements and ships in Imperial renforcements.

 

I'm a little confused on how the Black Crusade was and wasn't contained in the Segmentum Obscurus. Could you clarify?

 

It is pointed to have largely been contained in the Segmentum Obscuras with some raiding fleets getting past.

 

Where is the conclusion to either event listed? The only conclusion listed is the defeat of oneChaos Raiding Fleet. That reached all the way to the Damocles Gulf.

 

The Black Crusade is reffered to in past tense and all implications thereof point out it's done. The Imperium, as of then still stands and is evidently just fine.

 

If the objective of the 13th Black Crusade was just to open the Cadian Gate, then by the account from Cain's Last Stand, it succeeded since the raiding fleets were able to leave the Segmentum Obscurus and scatter across the galaxy.

 

Which appears to have done exactly jack as the Imperium is still fine by Cain's time and those raiding fleets are not going to last long without any kind of base to resupply and repair.

[Lay]

And why can't they approach the worlds? What about any part of my statement says that?

Nothing I haven't told you already:

The entire region is wracked by Warp storms so intense that inter-system travel is now impossible. As the last reinforcements gather in those sectors not cut off- Cadia, Agripinaa, Belis Corona, Scarus and Chinchare, it is clear to every defender of the Cadian Gate that the war has entered its final stages. - Newsletter 8

 

Warp storms can't last forever.

Maybe they can. Bottom line is that the Imperium can do nothing against them. And if we go by the new CSM Codex, the creation of a "Crimson Path" towards Terra, where daemons can materialize at will is Abaddons big master plan during the 13th BC.

 

Implied to be fine as the Imperium is still standing. The Imperium is evidently rather fine from that.

An implication isn't proof. And still standing isn't the same as being fine.