Abaddon and his "failed" Crusades

[Gree]

Nothing I haven't told you already:

The entire region is wracked by Warp storms so intense that inter-system travel is now impossible. As the last reinforcements gather in those sectors not cut off- Cadia, Agripinaa, Belis Corona, Scarus and Chinchare, it is clear to every defender of the Cadian Gate that the war has entered its final stages. - Newsletter 8

 

And if inter-system travel is impossible then how can Abaddon's troops be trapped by the Imperial Navy?

 

Maybe they can. Bottom line is that the Imperium can do nothing against them.

 

For now, or well evidently they can, as Abaddon's troops are trapped.

 

And if we go by the new CSM Codex, the creation of a "Crimson Path" towards Terra, where daemons can materialize at will is Abaddons big master plan during the 13th BC.

 

The new CSM is irrelevant. Any retcons introduced there don't matter as I'm discussion the EOT campaigh and how it was when ti was first written.

 

An implication isn't proof.

 

It's more than you have though. There is nothing at all in those accounts that have the Imperium destroyed or falling.

 

And still standing isn't the same as being fine.

 

Yes, because that's where it's noted how horrible the Imperium is currently doin- oh wait, that's not what the notes say now is it?

[Kol Saresk]

It will he shortly. They have orbital superioirty. The logical result is as I have stated above. The Imperial fleet bombards worlds, interdicts Chaos renforcements and ships in Imperial renforcements.

But "shortly" is future-tense supposition is it not? So at that point in time, before the retcon, the Chaos forces that were at the Eye were "contained". Correct?

 

It is pointed to have largely been contained in the Segmentum Obscuras with some raiding fleets getting past.

Gotcha. So the forces that are at the Eye are contained while the unknown number of raiding fleets that made it out are either defeated or are still raiding and pillaging.

 

The Black Crusade is referred to in past tense and all implications thereof point out it's done. The Imperium, as of then still stands and is evidently just fine.

Okay, so the Black Crusade is over. But where does it say, or give the impression, that the Imperium is fine other than the fact that it is written? Is that supposition as well?

[Gree]

It will he shortly. They have orbital superioirty. The logical result is as I have stated above. The Imperial fleet bombards worlds, interdicts Chaos renforcements and ships in Imperial renforcements.

But "shortly" is future-tense supposition is it not? So at that point in time, before the retcon, the Chaos forces that were at the Eye were "contained". Correct?

 

Yes, essentially.

 

Gotcha. So the forces that are at the Eye are contained while the unknown number of raiding fleets that made it out are either defeated or are still raiding and pillaging.

 

More or less. They won't really get far without any kind of support base though, and that won't last long.

 

Okay, so the Black Crusade is over. But where does it say, or give the impression, that the Imperium is fine other than the fact that it is written? Is that supposition as well?

 

The Black Crusade is talked about as ''those harsh and terrible times'' as in past tense and is in general refered to as a past military conflict that evidently can idly be stuided by laymen. If the Black Crusade unleashed the hordes of hell to bring down the Imperium, nobody seems too concerned about them in any of Cain's memoirs.

[Kol Saresk]

So all of your opinions are suppositions based on the lack of statement on the Imperium's state of being in the one branch of 40k that the majority of people on here believe is "fluff" and "non-canon"?

[Gree]

So all of your opinions are suppositions based on the lack of statement on the Imperium's state of being in the one branch of 40k that the majority of people on here believe is "fluff" and "non-canon"?

 

No my assertions are based on the logical conclusion of events and quotes from sources on how things turned out.

[Lay]

And if inter-system travel is impossible then how can Abaddon's troops be trapped by the Imperial Navy?

They haven't trapped them at system level, they have isolated them at sector level.

 

The new CSM is irrelevant. Any retcons introduced there don't matter as I'm discussion the EOT campaigh and how it was when ti was first written.

Yet Cain counts?

 

It's more than you have though. There is nothing at all in those accounts that have the Imperium destroyed or falling.

The 13th BC was about the Cadian Gate and surrounding sectors, not the fall of the empire Imperium. As far as I'm concerned the Imperium as a whole might still stand while the gate has been shattered.

 

Yes, because that's where it's noted how horrible the Imperium is currently doin- oh wait, that's not what the notes say now is it?

I am asking how the Cadian Gate and surrounding area are doing. That's just not covered in the text.

[Gree]

They haven't trapped them at system level, they have isolated them at sector level.

 

Going by the results they still maintain control at system level, so no. It's more than that.

 

Yet Cain counts?

 

Yes. I only brought it up when others people starting bringing up past events. If you want to toss out all of that then fine, but that means the logical conclusion of events is as I have demonstrated above.

 

The 13th BC was about the Cadian Gate and surrounding sectors, not the fall of the empire Imperium. As far as I'm concerned the Imperium as a whole might still stand while the gate has been shattered.

 

Then it's pretty much a failure. The Chaos forces are going to be rolled back and sent back to the Eye like always then.

 

I am asking how the Cadian Gate and surrounding area are doing. That's just not covered in the text.

 

And you think they could comment on that rather than just some idle remisence on how the Black Crusade was this nasty military conflict that took so long ago?

[Kol Saresk]

So all of your opinions are suppositions based on the lack of statement on the Imperium's state of being in the one branch of 40k that the majority of people on here believe is "fluff" and "non-canon"?

 

No my assertions are based on the logical conclusion of events and quotes from sources on how things turned out.

 

It will he shortly. They have orbital superioirty. The logical result is as I have stated above. The Imperial fleet bombards worlds, interdicts Chaos renforcements and ships in Imperial renforcements.

But "shortly" is future-tense supposition is it not? So at that point in time, before the retcon, the Chaos forces that were at the Eye were "contained". Correct?

 

Yes, essentially.

 

So this is an assertion, not a supposition correct? Or do you mean inference since an assertion is based on fact and this is merely a conclusion based on fact?

[Gree]

So all of your opinions are suppositions based on the lack of statement on the Imperium's state of being in the one branch of 40k that the majority of people on here believe is "fluff" and "non-canon"?

 

No my assertions are based on the logical conclusion of events and quotes from sources on how things turned out.

 

It will he shortly. They have orbital superioirty. The logical result is as I have stated above. The Imperial fleet bombards worlds, interdicts Chaos renforcements and ships in Imperial renforcements.

But "shortly" is future-tense supposition is it not? So at that point in time, before the retcon, the Chaos forces that were at the Eye were "contained". Correct?

 

Yes, essentially.

 

So this is an assertion, not a supposition correct? Or do you mean inference since an assertion is based on fact and this is merely a conclusion based on fact?

 

I made an assertion yes, based on the logical conclusion of how things would work. Your attempts at belitting my position are amusing though,

[Kol Saresk]

Not belittling. Making sure we're on the same page. But an assertion is simply one trying to say their opinion. Which is all everyone here has done. So I assume that makes this a decent debate does it not?

[Gree]

Not belittling. Making sure we're on the same page.

 

No, certainly belittling. You have done that just a couple of pages recently.

 

But an assertion is simply one trying to say their opinion. Which is all everyone here has done. So I assume that makes this a decent debate does it not?

 

I suppose you can quibble over definitions. It does not change my point.

[Lay]

Going by the results they still maintain control at system level, so no. It's more than that.

In how many sectors would that be?

 

Yes. I only brought it up when others people starting bringing up past events. If you want to toss out all of that then fine, but that means the logical conclusion of events is as I have demonstrated above.

So, what brings you to the logical conclusion that the warp storms will just disappear?

 

And you think they could comment on that rather than just some idle remisence on how the Black Crusade was this nasty military conflict that took so long ago?

They comment how it's a thing of the past, not how it played out. I already said, as far as I'm concerned the Imperium as a whole might still stand while the gate has been shattered.

[Kol Saresk]

All I said a couple of pages ago is that you can't pick and choose which parts of the fluff you accept and which parts you ignore. I'm sorry you felt this was belittling. And since the whole point of this topic was to cover current, related fluff over whether or not Abaddon can be considered a failure since he has achieved the main objective of every one of his 12 Crusades, the whole two pages were kind of wasted by all of us debating in circles over how unrecorded events are related to the success or failure of the 13th Black Crusade which has been retconned to "Just beginning" since it's start does have a place on the timeline in the Codex. I'm sorry if you think that belittles you.

[Gree]

Going by the results they still maintain control at system level, so no. It's more than that.

In how many sectors would that be?

 

Across Cadia, Aggipina and a dozen other sectors.

 

So, what brings you to the logical conclusion that the warp storms will just disappear?

 

Since warp storms usually don't last forever and there is no mention of them in any other source.

 

They comment how it's a thing of the past, not how it played out. I already said, as far as I'm concerned the Imperium as a whole might still stand while the gate has been shattered.

 

And if the gate was shattered with the hordes of hell pouring forth, like some in this thread have suggested, then you think the characters would comment on it.

[Gree]

All I said a couple of pages ago is that you can't pick and choose which parts of the fluff you accept and which parts you ignore.

 

Which I have fourtunately not done.

 

And since the whole point of this topic was to cover current, related fluff over whether or not Abaddon can be considered a failure since he has achieved the main objective of every one of his 12 Crusades, the whole two pages were kind of wasted by all of us debating in circles over how unrecorded events are related to the success or failure of the 13th Black Crusade which has been retconned to "Just beginning" since it's start does have a place on the timeline in the Codex.

 

Actually my own argument was debating on wheter the 13th Black Crusade was a sucess when taking in the past fluff of it's context.

[Kol Saresk]

Gotcha.

[Lay]

Going by the results they still maintain control at system level, so no. It's more than that.

In how many sectors would that be?

 

Across Cadia, Aggipina and a dozen other sectors.

You're mixing something up. It says that they isolated Abaddon's fleets across these sectors in the WD results article. It does not say that they can make inter-system travel there, except for 5 according to web newsletter 8.

 

Since warp storms usually don't last forever and there is no mention of them in any other source.

What's the usual lifespan of a warp storm? And what's so "usual" about storms that were deliberately summoned by Abaddons allies to cement his conquests.

Oh, and they have been in all relevant sources concerning the campaign, from the web-newsletters, to the 13th BC background book to the EoT Redux article that provided rules to replay the various stages of the campaign.

 

And if the gate was shattered with the hordes of hell pouring forth, like some in this thread have suggested, then you think the characters would comment on it.

I don't know. Not every passing mention of the Tyranid hivefleets must mention the damage they have caused.

[Brother Ambroz]

Wow, I log off for a day, log back on and you've been debating nothing for 2 pages.

 

Wasn't this thread about his crusades? Not about the EoT campaign?

[Kol Saresk]

Wow, I log off for a day, log back on and you've been debating nothing for 2 pages.

 

Wasn't this thread about his crusades? Not about the EoT campaign?

Yep.

[Gree]

You're mixing something up. It says that they isolated Abaddon's fleets across these sectors in the WD results article. It does not say that they can make inter-system travel there, except for 5 according to web newsletter 8.

 

If they can't make inter-system travel then obviously they can't contain his fleets across the sectors or maintain systme superiority.

 

What's the usual lifespan of a warp storm? And what's so "usual" about storms that were deliberately summoned by Abaddons allies to cement his conquests.

 

The usual lifepsan of the warp storms varies, although if they were summouned into existeance they can't last for that long. The ones in the heresy lasted for less than seven years.

 

What's the usual lifespan of a warp storm? And what's so "usual" about storms that were deliberately summoned by Abaddons allies to cement his conquests.

Oh, and they have been in all relevant sources concerning the campaign, from the web-newsletters, to the 13th BC background book to the EoT Redux article that provided rules to replay the various stages of the campaign.

 

Nothing about them being permenent though, hence my point.

 

I don't know. Not every passing mention of the Tyranid hivefleets must mention the damage they have caused.

 

That's because the Tyranid Hive Fleets were ultimately defeated and wiped out. All three of them. So I guess the same must be for the Black Crusade.

[Brother Ambroz]

If they can't make inter-system travel then obviously they can't contain his fleets across the sectors or maintain systme superiority.

 

The usual lifepsan of the warp storms varies, although if they were summouned into existeance they can't last for that long. The ones in the heresy lasted for less than seven years.

 

Nothing about them being permenent though, hence my point.

 

That's because the Tyranid Hive Fleets were ultimately defeated and wiped out. All three of them. So I guess the same must be for the Black Crusade.

 

Then obviously they can't have Abby's forces in a chokehold then huh?

 

Seven years isn't that long true but it's long enough for more chaos reinforcements to come through.

 

Never know Abby's probably learned quite a few tricks Horus didn't during the 10,000 years since he turned.

 

Really, Leviathan was wiped out? What happened to the fluff with Leviathan fighting orks? The same fluff that says even now new creatures that are stronger than ever are being found on the fringes?

[Gree]

Then obviously they can't have Abby's forces in a chokehold then huh?

 

Seven years isn't that long true but it's long enough for more chaos reinforcements to come through.

 

It's pointed out that the Chaos forces can't get any renforcements through.

 

Really, Leviathan was wiped out? What happened to the fluff with Leviathan fighting orks? The same fluff that says even now new creatures that are stronger than ever are being found on the fringes?

 

I refer to Behemoth and Kraken. Wiped out is a strong description, but Kraken was gutten and broken up. You are correct on Leviathan though.

[Kol Saresk]

And aren't the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom Warp Storms? And the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath? That one's been going for five millennia. So there is precedent of warp storms lasting a very long time.

[Gree]

And aren't the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom Warp Storms? And the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath? That one's been going for five millennia. So there is precedent of warp storms lasting a very long time.

 

those are less ''warp storms'' and ''direct tears in reality.''

 

You would think if the forces of Chaos could conjure up permanent warp storms then they would have done that in the Heresy and forever cast the loyalist Legions into the abyss.

[Kol Saresk]

But isn't a Warp Storm nothing but a tear in reality that reality is trying to heal?