Tactical flexibility from codex rumors

[Polythemus]

While its nice to see everyone so busy painting, and bunkering in til the next codex arrives I wanted to breathe some life into this place. The idea i want to investigate is how will the changes to the codex effect your playstyle? In order to discuss this we need to consider the type of units we might have access to what they are good at and how they might change.

 

The rumored changes to the codex have in multiple places put terminators as troops. lets say this is a done deal and they stay at their current points cost. Furthermore it has been suggested that the ravenwing may loose fearless so lets assume a trade off here of 10pts. if we get a small price cut to tactical squads they may become more viable. So lets consider just these units and forget the rest of the rumors.

 

Unit analysis

Deathwing: a known entity 'round here.

Pros: Resilient. 5w consisting of a 2+/5++ upgradable -> 2+/3++ free, losing the ability to shoot. ap 3+ will reqiure 30wounds before dying. Can alpha strike/teleport.

Cons: slow because their only means of transport is very expensive. LR or Flying transport. Once placed they can't go too far.

Analysis: will likely be killed if exposed to small arms for an extended period. unless they are armed for cc, their wound output is limited. Tactical termies with an AssCan reliably put out 4 wounds with shooting (saveable) and in a cc squad with 3hammer 2claws 5w (unsaveable on the charge) vs. MEQ (marine equivalents), so that isn't many wounds unless they get into cc it also assumes they survive overwatch rapid fire, which statistically should not harm them.

 

Ravenwing: lets suggest their is no change to unit composition.

Pros: Mobile. 3w consisting of 3+/5++ cover -> no shooting can get you 3+/4++ cover. ap 4+ will require 9wounds before dying, or if 6bikes 18wounds. Can scout. may take wargear. Hammer of wrath. Toughness 5 meaning they should last longer than a 10m tactical squad. Tele homer.

Cons: small squad size.

Analysis: this seems like a unit thats likely to come down in points cost. lets conjecture that 10pts price drop. and that the gear is priced at ultramarine rate. this means a full squad may now be 200pts or 230 with plasma. This units price drecrease is conservatively estimated here but when we take into account the 20pt drop that is most of the way to a banner so it can be useful. if we consider that the current pricing of space marine bikes includes combat tactics and include that in our pricing then when may see a drop of up to 40pts for this 6man squad, and 40pts you can do something with. This squad also has a low wound output, armed with plasma outside rapid fire range, the wound output is 3 wounds (1 unsavable). Inside rapid fire range doubles the wound output 6wounds (2unsavable) vs MEQ.

 

Troops: these being tacticals

Pros: getting shot and surviving. ap 4+ will require 30wounds before dying. otherwise they die quick.

Cons: Low wound output. outside rapid fire their output is 3w, 6w inside rapid fire range all savable. wargear may increase this by one wound but, its pretty low.

Analysis: Bringing these units in line with their blue counterparts in terms of pricing drops the price about 30 pts.

 

What does this mean in terms of army lists?

Well obviously that depends. The deathwing becoming troops without the surcharge of belial is an automatic 130 pt drop for them. Of course someone has to be your HQ so this is negligible, but it does mean that you can take a librarian with much greater utility and approximately the same killing power. Clearly decreasing prices of items makes other things affordable. Lets say before you took a Deathwing/ravenwing list before at 1500pts. giving you someting like this

 

HQ Belial

Librarian

 

dw cml, banner

dw cml

dw cml

 

tactical 10 flmr, ML

 

Ravenwing 3man melta x2, attack bike

Typhoon x2

 

with the new changes, you would remove belial and the banner and have 205 pts remaining. That is extremely productive point scrounging. The question becomes with these new metrics what changes do you make to your lists? One the major problems that Dark Angles have is lack of high wound output units and the most popular build, deathwing, has large problems with tactical flexibility and adjusting to threats presnted by manuverable enemies. I think that future Dark angel lists may have an increase in Ravenwing units if we see the expected unit pricing changes. this unit is extremely mobile and more resilient than a tactical squad, when toughness values are considered. Their wounds output is apporximately the same so we may see a rapid increase in the black birds of doom, especially if they become scoring. based on relative ease of use and efficiency, tactical squads will increase and we may also see a drop in the number of deathwing armies as their wound output means they cant function independently, and they are so vulnerable to small arms.

 

DA and the Galactic empire

When we start to consider the current "meta" of game play we see that only through concentrated and extreme use of force multipliers are Dark angels going to be successful vs the current lists of necrons, IG, dark eldar, and grey knights. How might these elements exist and how might you use them? These elements manly come in the form of independent characters or special rules that effect game conditions. The DA currently have no powerhouse special characters, ala calgar, njall, sanguinor, mephiston. The chapter background doesn't nessecarily suggest such, but with the increasing focus in 6th on characters and challenges i think its safe to say one is being cooked up. Either one of the big three is getting boosted, or some new characters are being born.

The advent of flyers means a very powerful tool of forcemultiplication becomes delaying the arrival of an opponents reserves. Pursonally i'd like to see this sort of rule put in place by a special DA HQ. with the flyers delayed and their weapon output points off the table Dark angles may become the preeminent alpha strike army. That'll make those crons think twice about a flying circus! Either way the dark angels codex will likley have elemnts like this that you will need to think of how to implement. Although this is mostly speculation it is based on some educated guesses about whats coming. Fell free to tell me i'm nutz!

[Haranin]

I would like the 5 man restriction removed; 5 termies can be beaten down over 5/6 turns pretty easily. I might not always use larger squads, but having the option to go bigger would be nice.

[Onisuzume]

I would like the 5 man restriction removed; 5 termies can be beaten down over 5/6 turns pretty easily. I might not always use larger squads, but having the option to go bigger would be nice.

And option for Combat Squads, I hope.

[Adeptus-Alaska]

cheaper tactical squads would be ace. I have yet to field DW or RW, so if my bread and butter would be sweet! but,DW as troops just seems so awesome to pass on, I think!

[Tamwulf]

Great analysis by the OP, but it's all based on rumor and conjecture.

 

There is no way we'll keep Deathwing Assault, fearless and swap out any wargear options on a Deathwing Troops choice. Not unless the point cost goes up. Sadly, every Dark Angels player would ALWAYS take Deathwing Terminators instead of a regular Tactical Squad. Maybe a Ravenwing Bike squad, but again, I don't see a Ravenwing Bike Squad in the troops section having Skilled Rider, attack bike options, and access to a Landspeeder, all in a troops selection. You could point cost out a Tactical Marine at 5 points each and they still would never be taken. Even looking at the OP's proposed army list, the Tactical Squad is thrown in as an 'afterthought'. What is that Tactical Squad even supposed to do in that list? 10 guys, a flamer and missile launcher with no transport? You'd be better off using those points to buy another Deathwing Squad, or upgrades for the Librarian or other wargear in the list. Heck, you could take the rumored Predator with the Plasma Cannons!

 

A far, far more likely scenario is that the Terminators will be basic Terminators with no special rules, and you'll have to arm them all the same way except for the Sergeant. Then, if you take Belial, he'll unlock some option for the Deathwing. Though one rumor had it that special characters won't unlock rules, it'll be a standard- or perhaps an Mark/Icon like mechanic like in the new Chaos Space Marine codex. This is a bit 'meh', as all those Marks/Icons of Chaos cost an arm and a leg for mediocre gains except for a few must haves... and you pay a lot for them.

 

No, we are missing something in all these rumors. Some little catch that no one has found or none of the rumor mongers have chosen to tell us about.

[Onisuzume]

Erm, I think they'll retain either Fearless, or get degraded to Stubborn.

I doubt that we'll get plain Termies without anything special.

The Deathwing being utterly fearless has always been one of the charactaristics.

[IndigoJack]

Great analysis by the OP, but it's all based on rumor and conjecture.

 

There is no way we'll keep Deathwing Assault, fearless and swap out any wargear options on a Deathwing Troops choice. Not unless the point cost goes up. Sadly, every Dark Angels player would ALWAYS take Deathwing Terminators instead of a regular Tactical Squad. Maybe a Ravenwing Bike squad, but again, I don't see a Ravenwing Bike Squad in the troops section having Skilled Rider, attack bike options, and access to a Landspeeder, all in a troops selection. You could point cost out a Tactical Marine at 5 points each and they still would never be taken. Even looking at the OP's proposed army list, the Tactical Squad is thrown in as an 'afterthought'. What is that Tactical Squad even supposed to do in that list? 10 guys, a flamer and missile launcher with no transport? You'd be better off using those points to buy another Deathwing Squad, or upgrades for the Librarian or other wargear in the list. Heck, you could take the rumored Predator with the Plasma Cannons!

 

A far, far more likely scenario is that the Terminators will be basic Terminators with no special rules, and you'll have to arm them all the same way except for the Sergeant. Then, if you take Belial, he'll unlock some option for the Deathwing. Though one rumor had it that special characters won't unlock rules, it'll be a standard- or perhaps an Mark/Icon like mechanic like in the new Chaos Space Marine codex. This is a bit 'meh', as all those Marks/Icons of Chaos cost an arm and a leg for mediocre gains except for a few must haves... and you pay a lot for them.

 

No, we are missing something in all these rumors. Some little catch that no one has found or none of the rumor mongers have chosen to tell us about.

 

I agree that commenting on a codex that doesn't even have an official release date is a bit premature. However, DW without fearless, DWA, and mixed weapons are just not DW. Every Dark Angel player already has the option to play these guys as troops and all they have to do is pay the measly 130 points for a character that's only missing eternal warrior and one WS to be one of the greatest in the game (seriously, he's crazy cheap for what he does already). However, there are still many DA players that play ravenwing and greenwing even though those options are cheaper in our C:SM counterpart. This isn't likely to go away with a new codex.

 

I'm fairly confident that ravenwing and deathwing will be included as troops in the next codex given power codex creep and the importance troops in the game. This doesn't mean tacs won't have a place. They'll still be cheaper than both RW and DW and will b necessary for those that want to make gunline marines.

[Onisuzume]

Speaking of which, tacticals got a boost with the 6th edition, from what I noticed.

Being able to move and fire a single shot up to maximum range?

Or am I somehow reading over a rule that prevents that?

 

Whatever ramblings he has is probably based on Dark Vengeance, which is, imo, a poor thing to do.

Of course they don't give them all the special rules they should have, they're just there to teach you about the simpler aspects of the game.

[Polythemus]

I'm in the camp that says its never too early to assess your options. This is partly personal and partly pragmatic. Personal in that I feel like sometimes there is a abundance of painting/modelling dicussion at the expense of tactics here, which i prefer. Pragmatic because if your painting slowly your gonna want to prioritize the paint que for what you plan to use first.

 

In response to tamwulf.

1.)the sample army list represents what many might consider a balanced but unoptimized multiwing list. Terminators push forward, tact holds the backfield. Simple. Never said it was a perfect list, but it does show how coming in line with C:SM (codex space marines) benefits the entire army points wise.

2.) The argument about DW and points cost is valid they may increase in price or pay for hammers. Keep in mind however, that cant as of right now increase squad size to 10. Cmls may very well only be able to pair with storm bolters. These limitations plus very few high wound output units/characters means that we need something to break our way. This kind of goes to my point about force multiliers. This has to do with the fact that they are tactically inflexible, its a built in failing of terminators. If your playing deathwing your probably going to lose to a more mobile force that can keep you at arms length. This too me means terminators might be availible as troops at a similar price. I do think you overestimate our fellows in green if you think a points effecient tact squad would lose the selection battle to terminators everytime. quite simply they (tacticals) can absorb a similar number of wounds and are more mobile, if less glamorous.

3.) The ravenwing probably wont have skilled rider, but then i never suggested they would. In fact it would be a waste of points if that rule is built into their cost.

 

This is certainly premature. I agree with all but these discussions are necessary for getting us out of the rut we now find ourselves in terms of how to build an army. Im just looking to increase the realm of possibilites.

[march10k]

I think the "deathwing are slow" thing is badly overstated. They're no slower than any other infantry...and running infantry are 6-D6" slower than a transport, which is to say an average of 2" per turn. There are two differences concerning deathwing. First, they can move and still shoot to full effect, so they're not as likely to be running. That's not the same as them having less potential movement than other infantry, that's just another way that they're better! If getting somewhere in a hurry is tactically more important than shooting in a given turn, you do have the option. Also, TDA is fantastically more protective than power armor if you find yourself running across an open field. No, I don't think "slow once they DWA" is accurate, I think "average" is a much more accurate way to characterize their speed.

[Polythemus]

Ok they go the same speed as other infantry. However, this doesnt mean they are tactically flexible and that is the purpose of this thread. A tact squad gets in a 35 pt rhino and can move 18 inches. The use of rhinos is ubiquitous, theyre everywhere. To get the same force redistribution terminators must spend 250 pts unless youve got a stormegle/raven. Hence you dont see many termies with transport. In addition if you dwa you can only run which is unreliable, and by definition dont have a transport. So taking all this into consideration, most infantry have transports, most of those transports are cheap, then yes i would say by comparison, terminators are slow.

 

Given my calculations based on wound absorbtion tact vs termies, the difference in resilience to small arms is zero. They have the same resilience. They can both absorb 30 wounds. Now granted this doesnt mean they will both take only small arms fire, but it does suggest they are more or less equiivilent versus other infantry fire. The thing termies have going for them as you point out is their increased wound output due to assault granted that they make it in. The ratio of wounds absorbed to wound output should be greater for termies as well and this is probably their biggest asset.

 

Taking all these points into consideration i think that i should rephrase to say dw are static, have an improved wound absorbtion/ouput ratio, and have a slightly improved wound output as long as you make it into assault. They are not what youd call tactically flexible, they will not be able to quickly adapt to changes that an opponent makes via manuver. This is not synonomous with bad. Let me be clear on that point, but when building a list and a playstyle it behooves us to be able to outthink and adapt to the opponent which deathwing alone can not do.

[Isiah]

That's why termies are nearly always supported by faster (Typhoons, bikes) units that can make up some of this shortfall. I don't agree that they are less tactically flexible than a tac squad in a Rhino -- they have different capabilities and strengths yes -- but you are trying to compare chalk and cheese I think.

 

Personally I find this topic premature when we don't know exactly what our new codex will bring.

 

Cheers

I

[Tamwulf]

Polythemus-

 

Your assertion about Terminators being tactically inflexible is flawed. For one, all your "calculations" are performed in a vacuum, and you make no mention at all about what happens once the unit gets into close combat. What is the rest of the army doing? What is in the rest of the army? Where is the rest of your army? What is the scenario? Objectives? Kill points? How are the units armed? What is in the opposing force, and what are they trying to do? The final thing you didn't include was the Fearless factor. Those Terminators will never fall back, while the Tactical Squad will start taking Morale Checks and could fail, falling back away from an important objective or out of cover.

 

About mobility: A Rhino has to start in your deployment zone. Deployment zones set you at least 24" away from your opponent's front lines. 18" or 12" for Infiltration. Rhino's are not the rolling deathtraps they where in 4th, but can be very... limiting if the Rhino gets popped before it even moves. When it does move, the firing ability of the models inside will be severally limited. If the tank moves and they disembark, they can't move any further, though they can shoot. Assaulting will still take 2-3 turns depending on how/where you move.

 

Deathwing Assault places your Terminators up in your opponent's face right off the bat. You shouldn't need to run. The Terminators stand and shoot and kill whatever it is they were shooting at. Unless it was a big target... but that's the DA Players choice. Sure, they will face a lot of return fire, but what is the rest of your army doing? Standing there and watching the Deathwing get shot? Use them to distract your opponent. If he divides his fire so that it only kills 1-2 Terminators and 1-2 other models, that's excellent. On your turn, you are now in a position to press forward with the Terminators and shoot/assault. Of course, there is the possibility of scatter and a mishap, but its no worse then your Rhino with a full tactical squad getting destroyed before they can even move.

 

A third option is the Tactical Squad inside a Drop Pod... but this really only works out well if you have more than one drop pod.

 

The ability of the Dark Angels Deathwing Terminators to make a Deathwing Assault on the first turn of the game makes them some of the most tactically flexible units in the game when combined with the available options to them. Your opponent has to deploy knowing that on the first turn of the game, he's gonna be hit with eight Stormbolter shots, and a Cyclone or Assault Cannon. On turn two, he is going to be shot and assaulted by the same unit... unless he backs away... in which case you have gained the advantage again. If they are SS/TH, then no, he won't be shot, but you will get assaulted on turn two. The unit cannot be ignored, or if it is, your opponent will pay for it next turn. In this fashion you can take the initiative away from your opponent, dictate when and where he will fight, and what he will fight.

 

A Tactical Squad is inherently inflexible, as it is a Jack of All Trades and Master of None. They are OK in shooting, though other units do it better. They are OK in close combat, but again, other units do can do it better. GW had to make troops choices viable within the game, hence the Force Organization chart and they made Infantry become a scoring unit. Great! Except that for DA, we can take an HQ to make the Deathwing a Troops choice.

 

Right now, there really isn't any reason for a DA player to take Tactical Marines. This situation will be further exasperated if Deathwing remain as they currently are in the new codex. Even more so if Ravenwing Attack Squads get moved into the Troops slot. Every allied player in the game loves to take Belial and two Deathwing Termy units as Troops for just under 700 points.

 

Metagaming... so much fun!

[IndigoJack]

Tac squads are flexible because they're a jack of all trades. They're not great at shooting or assault but can do both when needed. They also have one of the best armor saves in the game. Any xenos player will tell you that they'd love to have WS4 BS4 S4 T4 3+ armor troops. Really, it's the armor save that makes us great. We're practically immune to vehicle explosions and small arms fire. Of course, when you compare us to other chapter's tac marines we are lacking. Hopefully the new codex will bring us out of blandsville. I'm really hoping that it makes my hybrid deathwing more viable. Tacs can bring weapons that deathwing can't and can be brought in greater numbers for fewer points. They'll hold the back and mid field while the DW puch forward for line breaker and to take objectives in my opponents deployment zone.

[Polythemus]

I appreciate the passion and intellect you all are bringing to this discussion. Please keep it comin!

 

Tamwulf, I think that my definition of flexible and yours are not equivalent. I think that your saying you see tactical flexibility as where can a unit go and how many tasks it can perform well, right?

My idea of tactical flexibility is a unit that you have an iniital plan for, but you can alter that plan to achieve a new goal based on situational constraints. This definition is a function of ability and manuverability. This is a working definition that perhaps we can improve on together. But this means tact squad in a rhino able to change targets and move 18" is the more flexible i would also suggest that bike units are also more tactically flexible.

 

Now you riposted with the idea that terminators are able to shoot and assault giving them the ability to kill more stuff, which i agree with. The calculations i try to show can be made objectively however because 1) the assumed target is the same (MEQ) and 2) they are independent of opponent input. calculations in a vacuum are not very worthwhile, but when considering a units ability two important considerations are how many wounds can a unit absorb, and what is the wound output. each of these values is purely statisical and there are very few ways that an opponent can alter them. I think if we start to think in these terms we might be able to better asses our opponents forces, as well as our own, when making tactical decisions. Especially less experienced players like myself. :lol:

Blood angel jump troops with their preist can take atleast 40w before dying. Necrons are even worse witha res orb, and can take 45+w. The FNP effect infact is compounded every time you make it so the standard of deviation can be huge in these cases. Infact this is why a dw apothecary is so useful. He gives you 30 + 10 = 40w. This is a fairly reliable metric. It is more difficult to come up with a metric for close combat because of initative and the order in which things die, since close combat is the only stage of the game where you can damge your opponent on his turn. but if your feeling up to it...

 

Morale. As for myself when dealing with marines, especially my own, belial on the table means initative 10 for everyone, hurray! That is a 90% morale success rate. Even with a leadership of 9 its like a 80% success rate. So i think its safe to say that relying on failed morale with marines, aint gonna do much. Now other armies paticularly orcs ok morale is your friend, but morale wont help alot of the time.

[Tamwulf]

Tac squads are flexible because they're a jack of all trades. They're not great at shooting or assault but can do both when needed. They also have one of the best armor saves in the game. Any xenos player will tell you that they'd love to have WS4 BS4 S4 T4 3+ armor troops. Really, it's the armor save that makes us great. We're practically immune to vehicle explosions and small arms fire. Of course, when you compare us to other chapter's tac marines we are lacking. Hopefully the new codex will bring us out of blandsville. I'm really hoping that it makes my hybrid deathwing more viable. Tacs can bring weapons that deathwing can't and can be brought in greater numbers for fewer points. They'll hold the back and mid field while the DW puch forward for line breaker and to take objectives in my opponents deployment zone.

 

The OP was comparing our troops to other troops (presumably) with a 3+ save. Compared to almost every other troop in the game, a Tactical Marine is very good. I actually place in him fourth:

 

1. Necron Immortals

2. Space Wolf Grey Hunters

3. Blood Angel Assault Marines

4. Tactical Space Marines from C:SM*

 

*side note here- I haven't properly broke out the new Chaos Codex yet, but on first looks alone, I'd say they are #2 in the best Troops Choices in the game.

 

Weapon choice is greater in a Tactical Squad, but let's be realistic here: every Tactical Squad is pretty much armed the same way: Meltagun, Missile Launcher, and a P-fist on the sergeant. Maybe a power weapon, but that's still up in the air as to which is better in 6th Ed. This is the "Optimum Build" if you will. Meltagun for anti-armor, and the ML for it's flexibility- anti-armor and/or anti-infantry as needed. This build will cost you 210 points and lacks transportation. The largest drawback by far for Dark Angels Tactical Squad is the lack of Combat Tactics. Combat Tactics makes C:SM Tactical Squads so much better then DA in 6th Edition that it's not even funny.

 

A Deathwing Terminator Squad with an Assault Cannon will cost as much as the above Tactical Squad with a Rhino. I'll let ya think about that for a moment, and then there is the range factor- at ranges beyond 24", the Tactical Squad will have one shot (a pretty good one, but still only one shot). From 12"-24", the Deathwing dominates in all areas. The math has been done, and against AV <12, the Assault Cannon rules all. Below 12", the Tactical Squad gains parity with the Deathwing, and has a slight advantage over anti-armor. However, the ML in the Tactical Squad has to remain stationary to shoot. Given our definition of flexible, that makes a Tactical Squad inflexible every time the squad shoots the ML.

 

No mention of close combat is made, even though there are 10+ possible phases of close combat vs. 5+ rounds of shooting. It's a no brainer which squad is better in close combat. I can't think of any situation or opponent where a DA Tac Squad > Deathwing Termy's in close combat.

 

I appreciate the passion and intellect you all are bringing to this discussion. Please keep it comin!

 

Tamwulf, I think that my definition of flexible and yours are not equivalent. I think that your saying you see tactical flexibility as where can a unit go and how many tasks it can perform well, right?

My idea of tactical flexibility is a unit that you have an iniital plan for, but you can alter that plan to achieve a new goal based on situational constraints. This definition is a function of ability and manuverability. This is a working definition that perhaps we can improve on together. But this means tact squad in a rhino able to change targets and move 18" is the more flexible i would also suggest that bike units are also more tactically flexible.

 

Now you riposted with the idea that terminators are able to shoot and assault giving them the ability to kill more stuff, which i agree with. The calculations i try to show can be made objectively however because 1) the assumed target is the same (MEQ) and 2) they are independent of opponent input. calculations in a vacuum are not very worthwhile, but when considering a units ability two important considerations are how many wounds can a unit absorb, and what is the wound output. each of these values is purely statisical and there are very few ways that an opponent can alter them. I think if we start to think in these terms we might be able to better asses our opponents forces, as well as our own, when making tactical decisions. Especially less experienced players like myself. :P

Blood angel jump troops with their preist can take atleast 40w before dying. Necrons are even worse witha res orb, and can take 45+w. The FNP effect infact is compounded every time you make it so the standard of deviation can be huge in these cases. Infact this is why a dw apothecary is so useful. He gives you 30 + 10 = 40w. This is a fairly reliable metric. It is more difficult to come up with a metric for close combat because of initative and the order in which things die, since close combat is the only stage of the game where you can damge your opponent on his turn. but if your feeling up to it...

 

Morale. As for myself when dealing with marines, especially my own, belial on the table means initative 10 for everyone, hurray! That is a 90% morale success rate. Even with a leadership of 9 its like a 80% success rate. So i think its safe to say that relying on failed morale with marines, aint gonna do much. Now other armies paticularly orcs ok morale is your friend, but morale wont help alot of the time.

 

Thanks for the response! When you start throwing out numbers and math like that, please show your work. I assume ;) you are talking BS4 S4 bolter shots against each squad, in which case you are talking:

 

Parameters: S4, BS4 shot, median rolls on a d6

 

Tactical Squad: Armor Save 3+

9 shots fired

6 hit (2/3 hit at BS4)

3 cause a wound (1/2 wounds at S4 vs. T4)

1 is failed (1/3 armor saves failed)

 

9x10= 90 shots at S4 BS4 have to be shot at a Tactical Squad to completely eliminate it. Keep in mind, the Tactical Squad takes a Morale Test at 7, 5, 3, 2, and 1 model remaining. That's 5 chances to involuntarily fall back. Assuming you do not have Rites of Battle or some other model on the table to increase the leadership of the Tac Squad, and your sergeant is the last model to be removed (as highly improbable as that is...) they will fail 1 out of 6 Morale Tests. If your Sergeant dies, they fail 1 in 4.

 

Deathwing Terminator Squad: Armor Save 2+

18 shots fired

12 hit (2/3 hit at BS4)

6 Cause a wound (1/2 wounds at S4 vs. T4)

1 is failed (1/6 armor saves failed)

 

18x5= 90 shots at S4 BS4 to be shot at a Deathwing Terminator Squad to completely eliminate it. The Deathwing will never test for Morale.

 

Any other weapons of course modify these stats considerably. Consider that a Deathwing Termy has an Invulnerable Save of 5++ (3++ with a SS), and that anything that ignores the Terminator's armor save will also ignore the Tactical Squad's armor save. Therefor, the survivability of a Tactical Squad goes down even further when confronted with such weaponry, as the Terminators will always get a save.

 

In your last two paragraphs, you started to introduce outside variables into the equation, thus changing the parameters of the equation. So my initial assertion of "What is in your army? Where is your army? What are they doing?" becomes a factor, and what scenario you are playing. Right now, there is only one scenario in the BBB that is won/lost by units eliminated: Purge the Alien. Every other scenario is won/lost by taking objectives. As each player has a hand in placing objectives, it behooves each player to place objectives in such a manor that they are easily attainable by you, and difficult for your opponent. Once your scoring unit is on an objective, you don't want to leave. The unit becomes stationary. At this point, it doesn't matter how maneuverable your unit is- if it moves away, you lose the objective. Along with this idea, if I cause enough causalities and you fail the Morale Test and fall back off the objective, then I don't have to completely eliminate that unit.

 

There is, of course another victory condition: tabling your opponent. That is, removing all his models from play.

 

Equations in a vacuum like a table top miniatures wargame are all but meaningless. If you start adding in Special Characters, you have to start talking about special weapons and rules. Then there is the fact that at some point, you will get into close combat. This depresses me, as the Dark Angels right now really, really got the short end of the stick here- both in close combat capability and Special Characters. Look at Azrael. Compare his points value to any other PA special character and you'll see what I mean.

 

Metagaming is fun, with throwing out all these numbers and using probability to predict the effectiveness of a unit on the table. Come back after you've played 100+ games and tell us how a Deathwing Squad functions compared to a Tactical Squad. There is a reason why all Terminator armies (Deathwing, Draigowing, and Loganwing) are highly effective and devastating on the battlefield.

[elphilo]

There is no way we'll keep Deathwing Assault, fearless and swap out any wargear options on a Deathwing Troops choice. Not unless the point cost goes up. Sadly, every Dark Angels player would ALWAYS take Deathwing Terminators instead of a regular Tactical Squad.

 

A far, far more likely scenario is that the Terminators will be basic Terminators with no special rules, and you'll have to arm them all the same way except for the Sergeant. Then, if you take Belial, he'll unlock some option for the Deathwing. Though one rumor had it that special characters won't unlock rules, it'll be a standard- or perhaps an Mark/Icon like mechanic like in the new Chaos Space Marine codex. This is a bit 'meh', as all those Marks/Icons of Chaos cost an arm and a leg for mediocre gains except for a few must haves... and you pay a lot for them.

 

What I'm thinking is it will be something like Space Wolf Wolf Guard. Where they will still remain fearless and maybe DWA, but you buy the Sergeant and 4 terminators plus how many other terminators you want. These all come with PF/SB and the Sergeant has PW/SB. Then you pay for upgrades. Like switching to LCs would Cost X or be free. And then TH/SS would be Y and so forth. That way you could make a truly unique squad, though you will be paying points for them.

 

Speaking of which, tacticals got a boost with the 6th edition, from what I noticed.

Being able to move and fire a single shot up to maximum range?

Or am I somehow reading over a rule that prevents that?

 

No you're right, rapid fire weapons got a huge boost this edition.

[IndigoJack]

You're comparing DW and tac squads against each other, not how then can be used together for greater effect. A squad of DW sitting in the backfield isn't as efficient as a tac squad with plasma gun and missile launcher. Throw those guys in some cover and they've got some nice survivability. Melta isn't quite the king it used to be, especially since my DW can handle any vehicle in assault. 4 hammers and a chainfist are quite devastating. When it comes to competitive list building, the name of the game is efficiency. and when our tac squads get priced appropriately with some flavorful rules, I have no doubt that hybrid DW will be one of the armies to beat.

[Polythemus]

Quick reply cause the cardiology exam study is killing me.

 

1.) i did say the units they were being compared against were meq, which tend to be armed with s4 bolters. However as its best to be clear i'll try elaborate more clearly form here out. My bad.

 

2.) when you do the analysis of durability considering them as wounds means that you can leave out the final bs calculation, as its wounds that get saved not shots, and it lets you take into consideration different ballistic skill of shooters, as well as weapon strengths.

 

3.) indigo has probably hit the nail on the head in that once tact squad pricing drops we shall all be whistling a happier tune. :P

 

4.) ill try and show my work later

 

5.) please define OP

 

Peace

[Tamwulf]

Quick reply cause the cardiology exam study is killing me.

 

1.) i did say the units they were being compared against were meq, which tend to be armed with s4 bolters. However as its best to be clear i'll try elaborate more clearly form here out. My bad.

 

No big deal, I got the gist.

 

2.) when you do the analysis of durability considering them as wounds means that you can leave out the final bs calculation, as its wounds that get saved not shots, and it lets you take into consideration different ballistic skill of shooters, as well as weapon strengths.

 

No, it doesn't. I showed the amount of shots that it would require to completely eliminate either squad. Next time you play a game, count up the total amount of S4 shots you fire (and your opponent's if you want). You will find that you never come close to shooting 90 S4 shots in a game. And yet, you will lose whole squads during the game You have to take into consideration the BS of shooters, as things like Assault Cannons and Tesla Weapons get more effective when they roll a 6. Also, AP is never taken into account. A Krak Missile, Meltagun, Lascannon, Plasmacannon... things with an AP 3 or less will kill a Tactical Marine with no save, while a Deathwing squad will get a save.

 

3.) indigo has probably hit the nail on the head in that once tact squad pricing drops we shall all be whistling a happier tune. ;)

 

A C:SM Tactical Squad of 10 models costs 170 points. A Dark Angels Tactical Squad is 165. Blood Angels Tactical Squad is 170. Grey Hunters are 150 points. Chaos Tacticals are also 150. These are all before options are taken. The cost for all the options across all four Codex's are all the same or within 5-10 points on the special weapons... which are a bit wonkey. Unless the DA Tactical Squad is priced below 150 and all the options recosted below what they are now, I'll say it again: No one will take a Tactical Squad when you can have a Deathwing or Ravenwing Squad as a Troops Choice.

 

4.) ill try and show my work later

 

Again, no big deal. The math behind all the assertions we have both made has already been proven and is widely available all over the 'net.

5.) please define OP

 

Over Powered, Beardy, Cheesy

 

@IndigoJack- I agree 100%! It's never about how effective one squad is. It's about how effective the entire army is. It's also how you use the individual units together to win the game. Many, many times I've had a Tac Squad parked in the back field with a Heavy Weapon that only fired 3-4 times during the entire game, but the one shot managed to kill a Land Raider, or Necron Monolith, or some other high value target. Though the Tac Squad did nothing else for the entire game. Or they sat on an objective and never fired a shot. How do you define that effectiveness? All the tactical squad did was move up and sit on an objective I placed within an easy 6" move during the first turn of the game. Or the one time I manged an extra wound to force a Morale Test that my opponent failed, and the unit ran off the table.

 

Play more games! Metagaming only takes you so far. And there are units scattered throughout the entire game that on paper, rock, but in actual play- they are lackluster, or never perform up to expectations.

[IndigoJack]

That's exactly my point. A tac squad can hold an objective almost as well as a unit of DW. The only draw back is the unit isn't fearless, just Ld10 (while Belial is alive anyway). However, a tac squad with plasma gun and missile launcher comes in 45 pts cheaper than a unit of DW with a CML. That's almost the cost of an aegis defense line to grant those tacs a 4+ cover save.

 

These are not just ramblings based off how a unit looks on paper, but rather how I've seen them played out on a battlefield. I've found that a unit of DW are rarely shot at on a backfield objective because my opponent is already dealing with the other 3 units in his face. Even rarer is the time that they have to deal with assaults. In the end, the tac squad performs the same function at a smaller price. Experience tells me this, not just theoryhammer.

[Vilicate]

A 10 man tactical squad is exactly as durable as a 5 man terminator sqaud from weapons that don't ignore armor saves. They're actually better when in terrain as they can go to ground for a 3+ cover save while the terminators have to rely on their 5++, since they're fearless.

 

Can't see them dropping a psychology rule from Deathwing, Tamwulf. I'd wager they're going to stay exactly the same, with the minor quibble of having to pay 5pts for the TH/SS combo like blood angels do. Deathwing Assault is not scary, and neither is a 5-man terminator squad with mixed weapons and fearless. It's a completely fair unit.

 

You should try them out some time, I'd love to show you exactly how durable they aren't. :-P

[mes]

To those that think Deathwing will lose Deathwing Assault if they are troops, lets keep in mind that Codex marines have the exact same rule for anything that you can stick in a drop pod. I'm coming back to the game after a bit of a hiatus, so I dont know about Blood Angels or Space Wolves, but Drop Pod Assault can be as powerful as DWA or more so. While they are not the same thing they are very similar and both can apply to troops.

[BigGumbo]

A C:SM Tactical Squad of 10 models costs 170 points. A Dark Angels Tactical Squad is 165. Blood Angels Tactical Squad is 170. Grey Hunters are 150 points. Chaos Tacticals are also 150. These are all before options are taken. The cost for all the options across all four Codex's are all the same or within 5-10 points on the special weapons... which are a bit wonkey. Unless the DA Tactical Squad is priced below 150 and all the options recosted below what they are now, I'll say it again: No one will take a Tactical Squad when you can have a Deathwing or Ravenwing Squad as a Troops Choice.

Our tactical squads are actually more overpriced than this suggests, as the vanilla marines can take a flamer plus multi-melta/heavy bolter/missile launcher for free in 10 man tac squads, their melta/plasma guns are 5pts cheaper than ours and their plasma cannons and lascannons are 10pts cheaper than ours. I don't know how the vampires and the puppies compare, though...

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I think the key point Polythemus is trying to articulate in the original post would be that if pricing aligns correctly, then the DA Codex will gain a boost to Strategic Flexibility. There is a distinct difference between Tactical Flexibility and Strategic Flexibility. The term Tactical refers to something lasting 1 or 2 Turns (ie 'Tricks', combos, formations, special maneuvers, etcetcetc), and the term Strategic refers to a player's overall approach to winning that whole match. It gets interesting when you have Strategic Tactics (ie Diversions, Ambushes, sometimes Fixes) versus Attack/Defense Tactics but for the most part you treat them separately. The best way to think about it is that the tactics you employ should always promote your strategy.

 

So for any given Unit, discussing its Tactical Flexibility is a combination of the Range of Targets it can successfully engage and the List of Tactics they are apt to employ.

 

Discussing Strategic Flexibility for a single Unit will refer to its Points Cost, its raw Mobility, its Tactical Flexibility (yes, one is a subset of the other) and more esoterically how it interacts with the rest of your Army List. Strategically Flexible lists are able to switch 'how they will win' a game in the middle of that match, rather than choosing a 'Turn 0' strategy and riding that one strategy all the way through into a win or loss.

 

 

 

Currently the best unit in the DA Codex would be the Deathwing Terminators because they are the most Tactically Flexible due to the vast Range of Targets they can solve. The Rhino-Tactical Squad and Ravenwing Bikes are limited in Strategic Flexibility because their Points Costs are far too high to balance an effective list utilizing them as core Troops. If GW will drop the points into alignment with other Codicies, then viability will obviously increase.