Tactical flexibility from codex rumors

[Polythemus]

Very eloquently put sir. Your mention of strategically flexible units being able to alter their approach is, i think, the lynchpin to the entire argument. Ergo, we come to the lowly tactical squad in a rhino, which when priced correctly is the one of the most effecient units in the game. i think we can expect ours to come down in price accordingly and gain that selfsame recognition. Whats more, it seems to me that one of the most tactically useful parts of the tact squad is their rhino. It can effectively protect the squads flank from infantry fire in a way that the terminators cant utilize and pay the penalty for. The 'mobile wall' has several other uses as well which will be readily appearent to those who use them regularly. Those who play deathwing or doublewing exclusively may need some lessons in this regard, myself included!

More to CAGs point i think that it can be very difficult given the limited number of opportunities in a match to pull a strategic 'about face' and get away with it. It seems to me there would be a few ways or force dispositions to achieve this. Reserves, uncommited units and fast/mechanized units. The first two dispositions reduce your ability to pressure your opponent. It is fast/mech units that can shift to most effectively to meet these demands.

 

I will also say based on my exposure to the game thus far, when it comes to established units and abilities gw is begining to standardize points costs for special rules as codexes are released. Therefore you start to get an imperssion of how much a various ability is worth and when you tally this up (minus the ephemerous 'army interaction fee' ) you get about a 10 pt drop in squad loadout cost for DA tacticals.

 

As an aside but equally intriguing, if DAs get some variety of mortis dread how tactically viable will that be? I'll put this to those who play or are familiar with grey knights since that codex has access to them now. Im merely curious because there seems to be many on all site, not merely this one, who have given up on the big 'ol clankers due to their hull point limitations. How do they (gk mortis dreads) get used effectively without the same problems as other dreads or am i totally off base here?

[pueriexdeus]

Very eloquently put sir. Your mention of strategically flexible units being able to alter their approach is, i think, the lynchpin to the entire argument. Ergo, we come to the lowly tactical squad in a rhino, which when priced correctly is the one of the most effecient units in the game. i think we can expect ours to come down in price accordingly and gain that selfsame recognition. Whats more, it seems to me that one of the most tactically useful parts of the tact squad is their rhino. It can effectively protect the squads flank from infantry fire in a way that the terminators cant utilize and pay the penalty for. The 'mobile wall' has several other uses as well which will be readily appearent to those who use them regularly. Those who play deathwing or doublewing exclusively may need some lessons in this regard, myself included!

More to CAGs point i think that it can be very difficult given the limited number of opportunities in a match to pull a strategic 'about face' and get away with it. It seems to me there would be a few ways or force dispositions to achieve this. Reserves, uncommited units and fast/mechanized units. The first two dispositions reduce your ability to pressure your opponent. It is fast/mech units that can shift to most effectively to meet these demands.

 

I will also say based on my exposure to the game thus far, when it comes to established units and abilities gw is begining to standardize points costs for special rules as codexes are released. Therefore you start to get an imperssion of how much a various ability is worth and when you tally this up (minus the ephemerous 'army interaction fee' ) you get about a 10 pt drop in squad loadout cost for DA tacticals.

 

As an aside but equally intriguing, if DAs get some variety of mortis dread how tactically viable will that be? I'll put this to those who play or are familiar with grey knights since that codex has access to them now. Im merely curious because there seems to be many on all site, not merely this one, who have given up on the big 'ol clankers due to their hull point limitations. How do they (gk mortis dreads) get used effectively without the same problems as other dreads or am i totally off base here?

 

I still use Dreads in my games, Ive found a use for them before V6. The 3HP is not that bad if deployed correctly. I tend to use the Mortis as the New DA AA unit, a pair of TLAC Mortis Dreads can easily make their money back.

[Tamwulf]

As an aside but equally intriguing, if DAs get some variety of mortis dread how tactically viable will that be? I'll put this to those who play or are familiar with grey knights since that codex has access to them now. Im merely curious because there seems to be many on all site, not merely this one, who have given up on the big 'ol clankers due to their hull point limitations. How do they (gk mortis dreads) get used effectively without the same problems as other dreads or am i totally off base here?

 

The Grey Knight Mortis Dread works because of Psi-Bolt Ammo, Fortitude, and that it sits in the back field with cover and never moves during the game. So Special Rules + Cover make the GK Dread viable.

 

A regular dread, like a future DA Dread, won't be viable at all unless it gets Skyfire, and then it'll sit on the back of the table behind some terrain and shoot at flyers. Otherwise, Dreads suck. There are too many Meltaguns and Missile Launchers out there that will just strip HP's without ever rolling on the penetrating table. A double-whammy is that you still lose a HP when they roll on the vehicle damage table. So in one way, vehicles can't get glanced to death and be ineffective as soon as they start getting hit. On the other hand, one penetrating hit will pretty much stop the vehicle and make it more vulnerable to future shots.

 

It gets even worse when you get into close combat. These days, it seems everyone has Krak Grenades. If, by some miracle my Dread has made it into close combat, and it usually has lost a HP or two before then, I'll kill 1-2 models thanks to its lack luster attacks characteristics and average WS. At the same initiative, 5-6 krak grenades get thrown, or maybe a meltabomb or two. All they have to do is roll a 6 on damage to strip a HP and my Dread is done. Or... Sarge with his P-fist finishes it off.

 

The only Dreads that have a chance are Ironclads and Furiso's due to AV 13.

 

Last point- Dark Angels WILL NOT GET GREY HUNTERS. There have been four army books since the Space Wolves Codex, and none of them have come close to the points costs of Grey Hunters (Chaos comes close, but you have to start adding on options to make them as effective as GH, at which point they become way more expensive). My other prediction: The base points cost will remain the same. The options will come down to C:SM levels. We won't get Combat Tactics, we'll get Stubborn instead. And what a poor trade off that will be.

 

Your experience may be different from mine, but my Rhino's never make it past turn 2. If they do, it's because I parked them out of LoS of my opponent, and then its "What's the point of me taking a Rhino if I don't use it?". The most effective Rhino's have been my Blood Angels- because they are fast Rhinos, and I can get them up the field on turn 1 before they die.

 

The "Mobile Wall of Rhinos" or the "Drop Pod Wall" died horrible deaths in 6th. They don't work.

[Onisuzume]

A regular dread, like a future DA Dread, won't be viable at all unless it gets Skyfire, and then it'll sit on the back of the table behind some terrain and shoot at flyers.

Our Mortis-pattern already has Skyfire and Interceptor when stationary, iirc.

[Vilicate]

The "Mobile Wall of Rhinos" or the "Drop Pod Wall" died horrible deaths in 6th. They don't work.

 

How do you figure? Just interested in why you think either of these armies doesn't work.

[IndigoJack]

I use mortis dreads in my lists and they survive just fine. I recently played two games against a GK/tau army and my TLLC mortis survived the whole first game and made it to turn 4 of the second. This certainly wasn't because it wasn't being shot at. Stick a mortis dread in 4+ cover and it'll do fine. The TLAC is a good variant also. It walks the line between anti-infantry (Though S6 is really the sweet spot when killing marines) and anti-armor well. I agree about the CC dread though. Their not really worth it and usually die before doing anything worthwhile.

 

No one is asking for grey hunter prices, just better pricing in general. Even being priced the same as C:SM would be a huge boost (although I believe we'll be cheaper than that). I agree that we'll probably get stubborn, and I also agree that combat tactics is better.

 

Full drop pod armies have been dead since 5th. They're slightly more viable now but only because you can disembark 6" and possibly make it into cover (if the scatter goes your way). Mech isn't dead in 6th. What's dead is MSU in gunboats. Vehicles are too fragile now for that type of play. However, rhinos are still a valid form of transportation. 12" movement and 6" flat out can get you almost halfway across the board. If it gets blown up, you're likely to survive mostly intact. Your opponent has actually done you a favor because how you have a crater with a 5+ cover save to camp out in midfield. If it was destroyed but didn't explode, oh well. Disembark and continue on. You're now halfway across the board by turn 2 and can start to be a real threat. With the ability to fit two combat squads in a rhino, I really think we'll see more of them in this edition. Their only real downside is the fact that shaken/stunned results affect the passengers even if they disembark.

[MadMek83]

CC dreads are indeed in problem. I know this as fact as my furiosos are having tough times. However seeing new Chaos codex gave It Will Not Die rule for walkers, it might implicate that other marines and their walkers might get it will not die rule. It makes dreads tad more survival. Not much but enough to make other than Mortis pattern or Las or Las-missile Venerables fieldable. Just my two sents. However since we do not have new 'dex here, take it all with grain of salt.

[Onisuzume]

Anyhow, I don't think that pure CC-dreads fit the DA-doctine.

At least the Mortis doubles as an anti-air/skimmer platform, granting it much more uses.

[MadMek83]

Anyhow, I don't think that pure CC-dreads fit the DA-doctine.

At least the Mortis doubles as an anti-air/skimmer platform, granting it much more uses.

 

That is very true. I am just thinking to ally myself with BA eventually as they balance out well. BA for CC and DA for shootyness and plasma goodness. Where do you see Mortis Skyfire / Intercepotor rules? FAQ 1.1 left me out cold and only mortis with skyfire was Forgeworld's Contemptor-Mortis. Though two Khebis pattern assault cannon Contemptor Mortiss would be cool and nice area denial tool against flyers...

[Avon Rekaes]

Check out the forgeworld 6th edition FAQ for vehicles again. They added the non-Contemptor Mortis dreadnought.

 

(I actually emailed them about it being missing, and they updated it rather promptly. GW/FW have such awesome customer service.)

[Tamwulf]

I'm probably being a little negative in most of my posts here. I apologize for this, just because play experience does not equal metagaming. I'll try and be a little more positive in future replies.

 

@Onisuzume- The Dark Angels do not have a Mortis Dread in their Codex. Unless you are talking about the Missile Launcher/other ranged weapon Dreadnaught in the DA Codex. Also, no standard Dread has the Skyhammer special rule. The only way to get a true Mortis Pattern Dreadnaught in a Dark Angels army is through Forgeworld or allies from the other PA Codexes. The Forgeworld Mortis Patten Dreadnaught does indeed have the Skyhammer rule, but the entire thing is heavily overpriced (like Veteran Dreadnaught+ point levels).

 

@IndigoJack- you proved my statement. You parked your dreadnought in the backfield in cover and it survived. I've had a similar experience, but in the end, I finally failed my cover save and lost the dread. The days of AV 12/12/10 Close Combat Dreads are over.

 

GW seems to be trying very hard to give PA armies choices outside of Tactical Squads and/or Scouts as a Troops Choice. This is even true amongst the Xeno Codexes. Sometimes, it's very hard to take a regular Tactical Squad when you have access to a scoring unit that has a bunch of special weapons, or special rules, or just a whole bag of tricks that a regular, plain old Tactical Squad does not.

 

The humble Tactical Squad is indeed a cheap, easy way to get some special weapons, a heavy weapon, and a cheap transport option. They require no expensive special character to "up grade" them to a scoring unit, they usually have the greatest choices for deployment and transport on the battlefield, and they have all the advantages of a PA army. They are the Jack of All Trades and Masters of None. Their greatest weakness is their inability to really deal with those specialized units. For example, they have one P-fist or Power Weapon when a specialized unit can have multiple versions. They can have one lascannon, while a specialist unit can have 2-5. They have 1 attack at WS4, while some specialist units have 2+ attacks, Furious Charge, FnP, Fearless... the only two things a Tactical Squad has going for it is that it's a scoring unit, and Combat Tactics. If/when a specialist unit can become a scoring unit and the trade off for a new special rule is better then Combat Tactics, then the Specialist Unit us taken instead.

 

In my previous posts, I've stated that if the current Deathwing becomes a troops choice, then the Tac Squad will never be taken. The Deathwing are Fearless, have good deployment/transport options (Deepstrike via Deathwing Assault or Land Raider), have better shooting then a Tactical Squad, is waaaaay better in close combat then a Tactical Squad, and can take on any other unit and have a reasonable chance of winning (shooting and/or close combat). Anything a Tactical Squad can do, a Deathwing Terminator squad can do better. This is a generalized statement, and just about anyone can come up with a scenario or situation in which taking a Tactical Squad is better then a Deathwing Squad. It will all depend on what the GW designers have in mind for the Dark Angels.

 

There is no doubt the Dark Angel Tactical Squad will be changed. How it changes... is anyone's guess. Will GW want a DA player to play more Greenwing then Deathwing and Ravenwing? If yes, then the Tac Squad will get cheaper, and will have some kind of incentive rules- or they will change little and the Deathwing and Ravenwing will change to make the Tac Squad more desirable. IF GW wants DA players to use more Deathwing and Ravenwing, then the Tac Squad will change little, while the other two units will get changed for the better.

 

The glaring downside to the current DA Codex is not in the troops, elites, fast attack, or heavy support sections. The weakness is in the HQ section. With an overhaul of the HQ section and tweaks throughout the other sections, we could have a good Codex. If you look at the thread linked in my signature about Mechanical Lions, you'll see I argue for a complete redesign of the Codex with creativity and innovation as the main ideas. I don't want to see another "update" codex.

[LidlessPraetor]

Full drop pod armies have been dead since 5th. They're slightly more viable now but only because you can disembark 6" and possibly make it into cover (if the scatter goes your way).

 

 

True, but only because it's an automatic loss if you have nothing on the table at the end of a turn. And don't forget that with TLOS the pod itself provides some cover, if only at a single direction.

 

Give me Drop Pod Assault and a 12 man drop pod (like Vanilla marines get) and I'll show you a viable, useful, and (imho) exciting Greenwing list. I doubt that GW would let us have both Deathwing Assault and Drop Pod Assault, but there's no reason not to. It'd fit the fluff with the Ravenwing scouting ahead while the other companies await word from them when to strike from orbital fleets.

 

I like Deathwing squads quite a bit, but I love my podding tactical marines just a bit more =)

[EPK]

@Onisuzume- The Dark Angels do not have a Mortis Dread in their Codex. Unless you are talking about the Missile Launcher/other ranged weapon Dreadnaught in the DA Codex. Also, no standard Dread has the Skyhammer special rule. The only way to get a true Mortis Pattern Dreadnaught in a Dark Angels army is through Forgeworld or allies from the other PA Codexes. The Forgeworld Mortis Patten Dreadnaught does indeed have the Skyhammer rule, but the entire thing is heavily overpriced (like Veteran Dreadnaught+ point levels).

 

Maybe I presume too much but I'm quite sure he is aware of that. His usage of "our" meaning the FW Mortis Dread which is specifically for a Dark Angel army (and no other per it's datasheet). I'm also going to assume that he thinks, as many others do, that this Mortis Dread will make an appearance in our new codex, hence it's relevance in this thread.

 

I'm not sure why you think it is overpriced either - it's only 105 points. With it's update to include skyfire, it is probably under priced. Maybe you are thinking of the more expensive Contemptor? But that has it's pluses too for the cost.

 

Also, on your earlier note about skyfire - I don't think all DA dreads should get it, I'd rather see a dedicated Mortis get it (say it has something to do with advanced targeting, yadda yadda). Then again, FW rule is that it only gains skyfire/inceptor when stationary - I suppose that could work on all dreads.

[march10k]

The use of rhinos is ubiquitous, theyre everywhere. [...]most infantry have transports, most of those transports are cheap, then yes i would say by comparison, terminators are slow.[...]Taking all these points into consideration i think that i should rephrase to say dw are static

 

I couldn't agree less. Maybe half of the marine players that I face spam rhinos or razors. And transports have become far less common in 6th overall, since so few of them allow you to assault on the turn of disembarkation. When you consider that you have to sit on your hands for a full turn after disembarking, transports actually slow assaulty units down. And having your rhino blown out from under you really slows you down, as compared to a similar unit that instead chose to run (not even taking the cost of the rhino into account). Honestly, the only real purpose of a transport these days is to move a shooty unit (why wasn't it deployed properly in the first place, then?) or to provide protection against small arms fire (which guard need and marines don't). Anything that's charging across the board is better off on foot...unless it's able to step off of an assault ramp on arrival, which is expensive.

 

Being able to fire heavy weapons on the move, as well as being able to shoot everything and still assault by definition makes DW the opposite of static. Unless, of course, your baseline is jetbikes?

[IndigoJack]

The mortis dread (not the mortis conemptor) is priced the same way as the space marine dread. a mortis dread with 2x TLAC costs the exact same as a marine dread with the same load out. The advantage of the mortis dread is that it also has skyfire and interceptor.

 

Elite armies are great. You get troops that are flexible and actually good at what they do. There is however a drawback. They're expensive. You can get a loaded out 10 man tac squad for the price of 5 bare bones DW. Sure, the DW are great at surviving as they make their way up the table, but they are not indestructible and they will take casualties. The problem is that DW really start to lose efficiency after losing two guys. You're assaults are going to take longer. If your opponent tarpits you before the objective, you could be stuck in assault for 2 or 3 turns. This is not at all an unrealistic scenario. An experienced player will sacrifice any unit they need to in order to complete mission objectives (unless it's KPs, in which the objective is not to die). The solution of course is more DW. You're opponent can't focus fire on all of them, so you're likely to have at least one (mostly) intact squad make it across the board. You would think then that full DW armies would do this the best. YMMV of course, but I've found this not to be the case. Rarely, do all of my DW make it into assault, and of those that do, usually only one sees multiple assaults. While DW are great at assaulting and surviving, they're pretty lackluster at shooting. A 10 man squad of tacs can put out 16 bolter shots, 2 plasma shots and a plasma cannon at 12". That's nothing to sneeze at. This load out is still threatening even at 24" away. Stick these guys in cover and they become about as survivable as DW. Even after loosing a few guys their shooting is still pretty good. Now, if I have a unit of DW rarely (if ever) make it into assault, and I can get a tac squad that's better at shooting and just about as survivable, why wouldn't I take it? I'm not saying that an army of tacs is better than an army of DW. What I am saying is that hybrid DW are more efficient than pure DW.

 

I'm not sure where you get the idea that DW have better shooting than a tac squad. A full tac squad with PG and PC are going to net you more wounds at 12" than 5 SBs and a CML. Even at 24" it averages out to about the same. I understand that DW can move and fire all their weapons. However, the tacs aren't a "run 'n gun" unit, their a gun line unit. Play them as such and you will see a better return in their damage output.

 

I agree about our HQ though, most of them are either overpriced or have below average stats and most of them have both. The exceptions here are Belial, who is dirt cheap based off wargear alone; the chaplain, who has better stats than C:SM chaps for the same price; and the librarian, whose stats (ingoring Ld) are exceptional.

[march10k]

I agree about our HQ though, most of them are either overpriced or have below average stats and most of them have both. The exceptions here are Belial, who is dirt cheap based off wargear alone; the chaplain, who has better stats than C:SM chaps for the same price; and the librarian, whose stats (ingoring Ld) are exceptional.

 

 

...So you're saying that they're all overpriced, except for most of them, lol? Two of the three generic HQ, you acknowledge as being superior. You only think one of four named characters is a good deal. In 5th, I'd have agreed. But in 6th, artificer armor and access to powers that are actually useful make Zeke well worth his points, so I say that's 50% of the named characters that are good. Furthermore, I think the best budget HQ is a company master with nothing but a power sword. For 115 points, you get table-wide LD10 and an effective babysitter for a devastator squad. Yes, if you pay a little more, you get a chappy or libby, but the libby has no invul, and the chappy needs a jump pack or bike to be effective, and I'm talking about a budget choice. I really don't think DA have an HQ problem. Sure, there's no kantor or mephiston. But that's not really the point. the absence of an OP game-destroying option isn't a deficiency! Our HQ choices are solid overall, and our generic ones are superior.

[IndigoJack]

But for 30 points more than the company master, you get belial w/ TH/SS. His invul save is better, his armor is better, his armor wounds most things on 2+ and causes instant death to anything w/o eternal warrior, and also provides Ld10 to anything on the board. Stick a chaplain with anything and their fearless. That alone is awesome. Couple that with his high initiative and high attacks and that maul does some serious damage. Pay 20pts more and you get a librarian with a force stave that has the same effect and can cast prescience. Who cares if he doesn't have in invul? It would take some lucky shooting to snipe him out and prescience still works if he decided to decline the challenge. Ezekiel's fearless bubble is great. His statline though is about the same as a regular chaplain, save for an extra wound and point of Ld. Yes, he has a better armour save and an invul but playing smart will keep your libby alive just as long. And yes, Ezekial has access to powers but he can only cast one a turn. 9/10 times I'm going to cast prescience. Are these things worth 50 more points? Not IMO. He's 20 points more expensive than a GK libby and the only think Ezekiel can do that the GK libby can't is a fearless bubble. If Ezekiel was ML 2, I would say he's a good choice. He's even pointed appropriately for a ML 2 character. But unfortunately, this is not the case. We'll see how his statline and point cost evolve in the next codex.

 

Overall, our generic HQs really aren't that bad, and I should have been more specific. Our special characters do leave a bit to be desired though, both in stats and variety.

[march10k]

But for 30 points more than the company master, you get belial w/ TH/SS. His invul save is better, his armor is better, his armor wounds most things on 2+ and causes instant death to anything w/o eternal warrior, and also provides Ld10 to anything on the board. Stick a chaplain with anything and their fearless. That alone is awesome. Couple that with his high initiative and high attacks and that maul does some serious damage. Pay 20pts more and you get a librarian with a force stave that has the same effect and can cast prescience. Who cares if he doesn't have in invul? It would take some lucky shooting to snipe him out and prescience still works if he decided to decline the challenge. Ezekiel's fearless bubble is great. His statline though is about the same as a regular chaplain, save for an extra wound and point of Ld. Yes, he has a better armour save and an invul but playing smart will keep your libby alive just as long. And yes, Ezekial has access to powers but he can only cast one a turn. 9/10 times I'm going to cast prescience. Are these things worth 50 more points? Not IMO. He's 20 points more expensive than a GK libby and the only think Ezekiel can do that the GK libby can't is a fearless bubble. If Ezekiel was ML 2, I would say he's a good choice. He's even pointed appropriately for a ML 2 character. But unfortunately, this is not the case. We'll see how his statline and point cost evolve in the next codex.

 

Overall, our generic HQs really aren't that bad, and I should have been more specific. Our special characters do leave a bit to be desired though, both in stats and variety.

 

 

I'm not disputing that belial is better than a generic company master, he's insanely undercosted! But I'm not comparing the company master to belial in the first place. I'm evaluating him in isolation based on his own merits. And what you get for 100 points is a good budget choice. You satisfy the HQ requirement, you get table-wide LD10, and you get a nice uber-sergeant as an assault deterent for whatever is your least melee-capable unit (like a dev squad).

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about Ezekiel. I think his fearless bubble, bonus wound (? I didn't even remember about that!), and immunity to power swords (he should be in a squad, so the 2+ only matters in melee) are well worth 50 points. The third power is just gravy. I am excited to see him get a bump, though. Maybe some "loremaster" equivalent in a new DA set of powers? ML2 would be nice, but probably push his cost over 200.

 

I agree (and in fact previously stated) that we only have four named characters, and that azzy and sammy are meh. I just don't think that the absence of a one-man-wrecking crew like mepphy or eldrad is a serious codex deficiency. And I'm not entirely sure that we need as many SCs as C:UM, they don't seem to have more than four per chapter...maybe UM have 5? I would like to see us keep what we have and add a named chappy (Seraphicus doesn't count, he doesn't really have any unique rules, assuming we get preferred enemy instead of hatred for all chaplains in the next book, and his wargear is both inflexible and inefficient...I'm no fan of plasma pistols for the same price as a plasma gun!)

 

~shrug~ I don't think our HQ are bad. I agree that Azzy is horrible for the points, and obviously (for no good reason!) inferior to other chapter masters, and that sammy's just too expensive for a land speeder or a bike that can't join a squadron. But those two, to me, are the only serious deficiencies in the HQ section of the army list. HQ is definitely not the weakest part of the book. I wish it were, since this is not herohammer... But I think we have bigger issues in fast attack (no attack bike squadrons, and a 0-1 limit on typhoons per FOC), and elites (inferior vennies, no mortis, massive no-charge nerf to ourflanking scouts, no thunderfire), and heavy (no redeemer). And...overall, the absence of an anti-air unit of any sort (which would have been an easy errata fix) is also a bigger problem. About the only area where we're better off than in HQ is in troops...and that's largely due to Belial!

[Onisuzume]

@Onisuzume- The Dark Angels do not have a Mortis Dread in their Codex. Unless you are talking about the Missile Launcher/other ranged weapon Dreadnaught in the DA Codex. Also, no standard Dread has the Skyhammer special rule. The only way to get a true Mortis Pattern Dreadnaught in a Dark Angels army is through Forgeworld or allies from the other PA Codexes. The Forgeworld Mortis Patten Dreadnaught does indeed have the Skyhammer rule, but the entire thing is heavily overpriced (like Veteran Dreadnaught+ point levels).

 

Maybe I presume too much but I'm quite sure he is aware of that. His usage of "our" meaning the FW Mortis Dread which is specifically for a Dark Angel army (and no other per it's datasheet). I'm also going to assume that he thinks, as many others do, that this Mortis Dread will make an appearance in our new codex, hence it's relevance in this thread.

 

I'm not sure why you think it is overpriced either - it's only 105 points. With it's update to include skyfire, it is probably under priced. Maybe you are thinking of the more expensive Contemptor? But that has it's pluses too for the cost.

 

Also, on your earlier note about skyfire - I don't think all DA dreads should get it, I'd rather see a dedicated Mortis get it (say it has something to do with advanced targeting, yadda yadda). Then again, FW rule is that it only gains skyfire/inceptor when stationary - I suppose that could work on all dreads.

Verily our frateris quethes unto us.

And 135 points for the "rifleman" Mortis ain't bad, it wasn't back when IA2 was released, and it still ain't bad. (125 after update 1.3.)

 

Also, Skyhammer rule?

@Onisuzume- The Dark Angels do not have a Mortis Dread in their Codex.

Imperial Armour is equally legal as a codex. Tournament organisers may decide to deviate from that rule.

Check out the forgeworld 6th edition FAQ for vehicles again. They added the non-Contemptor Mortis dreadnought.

At least as early as July 23rd.

Give me Drop Pod Assault and a 12 man drop pod (like Vanilla marines get) and I'll show you a viable, useful, and (imho) exciting Greenwing list.

I'll take it! As long as it doesn't include any drop pods, that is. (My successor is fluffed as having lost all theirs and found them inefficient to recover/repair/replenish.)

[IndigoJack]

I'm not disputing that belial is better than a generic company master, he's insanely undercosted! But I'm not comparing the company master to belial in the first place. I'm evaluating him in isolation based on his own merits. And what you get for 100 points is a good budget choice. You satisfy the HQ requirement, you get table-wide LD10, and you get a nice uber-sergeant as an assault deterent for whatever is your least melee-capable unit (like a dev squad).

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about Ezekiel. I think his fearless bubble, bonus wound (? I didn't even remember about that!), and immunity to power swords (he should be in a squad, so the 2+ only matters in melee) are well worth 50 points. The third power is just gravy. I am excited to see him get a bump, though. Maybe some "loremaster" equivalent in a new DA set of powers? ML2 would be nice, but probably push his cost over 200.

 

I agree (and in fact previously stated) that we only have four named characters, and that azzy and sammy are meh. I just don't think that the absence of a one-man-wrecking crew like mepphy or eldrad is a serious codex deficiency. And I'm not entirely sure that we need as many SCs as C:UM, they don't seem to have more than four per chapter...maybe UM have 5? I would like to see us keep what we have and add a named chappy (Seraphicus doesn't count, he doesn't really have any unique rules, assuming we get preferred enemy instead of hatred for all chaplains in the next book, and his wargear is both inflexible and inefficient...I'm no fan of plasma pistols for the same price as a plasma gun!)

 

~shrug~ I don't think our HQ are bad. I agree that Azzy is horrible for the points, and obviously (for no good reason!) inferior to other chapter masters, and that sammy's just too expensive for a land speeder or a bike that can't join a squadron. But those two, to me, are the only serious deficiencies in the HQ section of the army list. HQ is definitely not the weakest part of the book. I wish it were, since this is not herohammer... But I think we have bigger issues in fast attack (no attack bike squadrons, and a 0-1 limit on typhoons per FOC), and elites (inferior vennies, no mortis, massive no-charge nerf to ourflanking scouts, no thunderfire), and heavy (no redeemer). And...overall, the absence of an anti-air unit of any sort (which would have been an easy errata fix) is also a bigger problem. About the only area where we're better off than in HQ is in troops...and that's largely due to Belial!

 

I guess the point I was trying to make is that Belial is a chapter master, and if you're looking to get rites of battle I'd suggest getting it from him first. I agree that the chapter master isn't really the worst choice that could be made.

 

As far as special characters go, at a minimum I want the old ones back. It's time Asmodai and Naaman return to The Rock.

 

Our vennies aren't really inferior anymore. In fact they've become really efficient. Now it's only a 20pt upgrade for BS5! That's enough to make plasma cannon dreads viable.

[Jehoel]

I guess the point I was trying to make is that Belial is a chapter master, and if you're looking to get rites of battle I'd suggest getting it from him first. I agree that the chapter master isn't really the worst choice that could be made.

 

As far as special characters go, at a minimum I want the old ones back. It's time Asmodai and Naaman return to The Rock.

 

Our vennies aren't really inferior anymore. In fact they've become really efficient. Now it's only a 20pt upgrade for BS5! That's enough to make plasma cannon dreads viable.

Belial is not a chapter master, he is a company master. However, all company masters in the DA codex give Rites of Battle.

[IndigoJack]

D'oh! would you believe I wrote that then changed it to chapter master? Thanks for the correction!

[Tamwulf]

Yeah, I got the costs confused between the two Dreads in the Imperial Armor books.

 

Skyfire, skyhammer... when you're impassioned and on a roll... :cuss

 

A 12 man Drop Pod would be awesome! So would be taking a second special weapon in a 10 man squad. I'd also love a Redeemer Land Raider for a Dedicated Transport. Or just as a regular Land Raider Variant.

 

There seems to be a subtle shift going on in 6th Edition away from Mechanized Armies. The changes to vehicle rules increases the... stamina of the vehicles? But it has decreased the endurance of the vehicles. What I mean is that in 5th, if a vehicle got a glancing hit, at the minimum, it wouldn't be able to fire. In 6th, it can still move, shoot, and embark/disembark passengers. The effectiveness of the vehicle remains at 100% until it loses that last Hull Point. If it takes a penetrating hit, its like a double whammy: lose a Hull Point AND roll on the vehicle damage table. Combine that rule with the rules for vehicles in close combat (WS 1 or 0, and all attacks are on the rear armor), and suddenly vehicles become a little less desirable. On top of that is the overall decrease in the cover saves (the standard cover save went from 4+ to 5+). Finally, there is no way for a unit to assault out of a vehicle without waiting for at least a turn. Exceptions: vehicles with Assault- which means Land Raiders, Storm Ravens (and some Forge World stuff, but as my group doesn't use Forge World stuff all that much, I'm not all that familiar with it).

 

We are now in an interesting spot with respect to Tactical Marines. We need to be able to take and hold objectives, but using a vehicle to get there can be risky. There is also the fact that a unit inside a vehicle cannot claim an objective, though the vehicle itself can deny an objective. The Rhino is probably the first choice for this: Turn 1, move up, pop smoke. Hope you live through the return fire. Turn 2, move to objective, Tac Squad disembarks and attempts to hold the objective. Hopefully, the Mysterious Objective didn't mess things up too much. If the Rhino is still alive, you can use it to block LoS or cover, or move it all out towards an enemy objective to maybe deny it to your opponent.

 

One other little note here: every scenario in the BBB has "First Blood". A Rhino or Drop Pod are very, very easy to kill on the first turn providing a cheap and easy kill point. Keep that in mind when you deploy them!

 

The way I've been playing my Dark Angels lately has been two Tactical Squads who sit in the backfield in cover or on an objective, while my Deathwing Squads and assault squads go out to claim or deny my opponent's objectives- either by shooting them off, or seizing them through close combat. I like to keep one Razorback with a Heavy Bolter and 5 model Tac Squad as a back up. I don't see this changing much even with the new codex, unless the Deathwing become troops as they are now. In which case, more Deathwing, less Tactical Squads.

[EPK]

The changes to vehicle rules increases the... stamina of the vehicles? But it has decreased the endurance of the vehicles.

 

Those are basically synonyms, but I get your point, and agree...

 

Considering these are vehicles we are talking about, I'd prefer use the terms endurance vs durability though. It has the endurance to carry on moving and shooting as it is hit yet has less durability to withstand punishment overall.

[Polythemus]

One other little note here: every scenario in the BBB has "First Blood". A Rhino or Drop Pod are very, very easy to kill on the first turn providing a cheap and easy kill point. Keep that in mind when you deploy them!

 

I was reading a tactica on this very point. It is an excellent one to bring to everyone's attention. First blood is actually the most important secondary objective in the game, because only one person can claim it. You can trade warlords, you can both get into eachothers backfield, but when it comes to first blood... There can only be one. This means that dening your opponent first blood is critical in games that are close. With deathwing armies where you typically have very little left on the board it can make a huge difference.

It is equally important to consider that when placing objectives the ones you place in your backfield are worth more to your opponent than they are to you so make sure to keep that in your calculus of game strategy. Just to elaborate, the objective is worth 3 pts total except in the case of the scouring which has variable objective values. But in your deployment zone that same objective is plus one. If place no objectives in your back field you can effectively compress the field and make it easier to engage the enemy while keeping your army close together. This strategy may be risky but can offer some ability to keep a small army together to support itself.