Chaos Chosen

[Gentlemanloser]

Comparison time again. :yes: My Strikes are starting to feel a litte, inadequate.

 

Sure, to be Scoring, you need to take Abaddon, but let's ignore that for a moment.

 

Compared to our Strikes, a single point more per mini will get you;

 

+1A, +1L, 2 CCW (so 3A in total) and a Twin Linked Bolter.

 

While slightly less potent at range, a Twin Linked Bolter is better than a Storm Bolter at Rapid Fire range, and while no Force Weapon, they have +2A over the Strikes.

 

No Deep Strike either, but really, who Deep Striked thier Strikes?

 

On top of that, the Chosen get to purchase 4 special, 1 Special/Heavy and the Champion can purchase a weapon from the Armoury.

 

Then there's the option of Boons, Icons and Marks on top. Oh and a special rule that gives them rerolls versus *any* units from any of the SM codexes and an extra +1L to boot.

 

Awesome unit. Can keep them 'cheap', or can kit them out.

 

Oh it's also good to note there aren't any 'Deamonic Gifts' in the new Choas Dex, so Dark Excommunication has no effect on any of the 'Daemons' in it. Win!

[Vash]

Since they are an Elite choice... you should compare them to a GK elite choice. Purifiers.

Purifiers can be troops too with Crowe. So thats how I would compare the Chosen.

 

But then again lets look at the things you brought up.

 

+1 attack, yes this is tough. But then again... its chaos.

+1 Ld, we got "And they shall know no fear" I will take that any time over +1 Ld

2 CCW, as expected really. But it do gives 3 attacks. True. I got no match for this. Except that we got power weapons on all ours, and thats roughly the same amount of dead power armors in the end. (30 attacks vs 10 attacks power weapons)

Twin-linked bolter, well true as you say with re-roll is nice, but I would go for range, as many GK players do. I figure I get about 2-3 rounds before I get into 12" range. A good player will NOT engange a 12" army at this range. Further more... we have Divination to give us re-roll.

 

Deep strike, it is an option some of us use. And the ability to counter deep strike is a really great tool. With just one 10 man unit, combat squaded you can deny 50% of the battle field.

 

4 special weapons, well yet again cant compare really. But I guess they have the standard Chaos weapons. plasma, melta etc. Weapons effective at 12". Our Psycannons are effective at 24". And... Purifiers get 4 special weapons too for that matter.

 

I am certain that the Chosen are good, and they should be.

[Brother Nihm]

They die as easily as other SM, unless you are playing Apocalypse and do not have to worry about point cost that is.

[Vash]

They die as easily as other SM, unless you are playing Apocalypse and do not have to worry about point cost.

Oh, they have the same problem as any GK unit :yes:

forgot that ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

You can now shot Rapid Fire wepaons at full range and move. :lol:

 

Combi-Bolters are Twin Linked bolters. At 24", they average the same as a Storm Bolter.

 

They die as easily as other SM

 

Mark of Nurgle.

 

we got "And they shall know no fear" I will take that any time over +1 Ld

 

Can be Fearless from an Icon.

 

4 special weapons, well yet again cant compare really. But I guess they have the standard Chaos weapons. plasma, melta etc. Weapons effective at 12". Our Psycannons are effective at 24". And... Purifiers get 4 special weapons too for that matter.

 

It's 6 in total!

 

And I'm sure Heavy Bolters are at least an option.

[spartan249]

Well... I deep strike my strike squads quite often, and I find it very useful as I don't use transports all that much.

 

That being said, Chosen are definitely pretty nice. 5 special weapons + a combi weapon can wreak some havoc. Compared to Purifiers (the real comparison to make here), I'd say they stack up pretty well. The hidden cost of taking the mehtastic Abaddon isn't too bad since he is actually an Independent Character (unlike some useless prick we're all familiar with...).

 

Frankly, I'm happy that Chaos finally became a competitive force to take. I haven't had very many fluff battles of GK vs Chaos recently, and I'm sure that I'll be enjoying the game quite a bit more as the chaos armies start hitting the table again.

 

The real thing I think we should be outraged about are the freakin Sorcerers. Mastery Level 3 with rerolls on failed tests for 125 points? This isn't stupid good how?

[Vash]

Is the Icon free of charge?

Are the weapons free or atleast cheap? When I checked the codex an hour ago it wasnt really super cheap to get 4 - 6 special weapons.

In the end the points for each individual is far above 21 pts.

A standard Strike squad from this forum is about 240 pts, thats 10 strikes with 2 psycannons and psybolt ammunition. Thats 24 pts per model.

What you get:

 

- 2 psycannons = 4 or 8 shots at S7 rending at 24"

- 8 stombolters = 16 shots at S5 at 24"

- 9 Force weapon attacks at S4 or S5 (or the ability to instant kill multi wound models) (18 attacks on the charge)

- And they shall know no fear

- Anti deep strike

- Scoring unit/models (without adding a special character)

- Psychic power protection

 

 

 

Double checking Choas codex with friend over Skype:

 

10 Chosen Nurgle marines with combi bolters, 5 plasma guns, 1 plasma pistol and power weapon on Champion, 1 heavy bolter, Veterans of the long war, sums up to 382 pts, thats 38 pts per model (basically a terminator).

You get:

- 4 Combi-bolters with re-roll to hit, 4 shots at S4 or 8 shots at 12"

- 9 bolt pistols and close combat weapons

- 5 plasmaguns, 5 shots at 24", or 10 shots at 12"

- 1 heavy bolter, 3 shots at 36", and BS1 on the move

- 1 plasma pistol, 1 shots at 12"

- 1 power weapon (3 attacks)

- Veterans of the long war +1 ld + hatred SM

- Champion of chaos (random ability)

- Nurgle +1T

- Fearless

 

Chaos chosen get a total of 27 close combat attacks + 3 power weapon attacks.

 

 

How in the world is 382 pts even close to 240 pts?

Now we could slim down on the special weapons, but these are the indications I am getting from you.

[Gentlemanloser]

Is the Icon free of charge?

Are the weapons free or atleast cheap?

 

Of course not.

 

Neither are Psycannons free, but they are cheap.

 

As I said, you can splurge to kit them out, or you can keep them cheap. At least they *have* these options.

 

Sure, you can chose the Plasma Gun, or you can go for the cheaper Meltagun (or Autocannon, or Heavy Bolter) and you don't need Veterens of the Long War.

 

So let's slim down;

 

10 x Chosen (180)

5 x Meltagun (50)

 

230 versus a 240 Purifier Squad

 

Les Range, and no Fearless.

 

Psybolts on the Purifers? and extra 30 point would let us take an combination of Mark, Icon or Boon. Combi-Bolters that apply Soul Flame? Fearless to match the Purifiers? Rage to beat even more face in CC?

 

Choose your poison.

[Vash]

Is the Icon free of charge?

Are the weapons free or atleast cheap?

 

Of course not.

 

Neither are Psycannons free, but they are cheap.

 

As I said, you can splurge to kit them out, or you can keep them cheap. At least they *have* these options.

 

Sure, you can chose the Plasma Gun, or you can go for the cheaper Meltagun (or Autocannon, or Heavy Bolter) and you don't need Veterens of the Long War.

 

So let's slim down;

 

10 x Chosen (180)

5 x Meltagun (50)

 

230 versus a 240 Purifier Squad

 

Les Range, and no Fearless.

 

Psybolts on the Purifers? and extra 30 point would let us take an combination of Mark, Icon or Boon. Combi-Bolters that apply Soul Flame? Fearless to match the Purifiers? Rage to beat even more face in CC?

 

Choose your poison.

 

There this makes more sense, when talking about comparing.

But in the end, chaos has always had more options, and GK has always had a very slim wargear list.

I think its good and natural that Chaos have more options. After all they worship gods that give them "bonuses" and many are marked (khorn nurgle etc)

So, the option is there of course.

And I really do hope that this CSM codex is good, because the last one was really bad, even when it came out.

[number6]

I think it's truly unfair to compare chosen to Strikers. That's not an apples to apples comparison. You note yourself that they're Elites and require a special HQ to make them Troops. You can't just set that aside as inconsequential when it truly is consequential.

 

The only thing even close to apples to apples with the GKs is Purifiers. Purifiers are also Elites, and they also require a special HQ choice to make them Troops. (Namely, Crowe. A Grand Master slightly pricier but still capable of "Trooping" Purifiers ... and both are cheaper than Abaddon.)

 

When comparing Chosen to Purifiers, I find that they are roughly equivalent in "point-for-point" value. They aren't identical units -- they have differing strengths and weaknesses -- and that's as it should be.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Psybolt ammo on Puris is only 20 pts. and the 240 pts is based off strike squad, not purifiers. also, I would indeed take the strikes in that trade off. i still put way more firepower downrange and am FAR deadlier in CC. Also, in the comparison earlier:

2 CCW, as expected really. But it do gives 3 attacks. True. I got no match for this. Except that we got power weapons on all ours, and thats roughly the same amount of dead power armors in the end. (30 attacks vs 10 attacks power weapons)

that was made on the assumption of Purifiers, which is actually 20 PW attacks, 30 on the charge. Alot of very dead chosen.

 

 

 

Not sayin..... just sayin....

[Vash]

Psybolt ammo on Puris is only 20 pts. and the 240 pts is based off strike squad, not purifiers. also, I would indeed take the strikes in that trade off. i still put way more firepower downrange and am FAR deadlier in CC. Also, in the comparison earlier:

2 CCW, as expected really. But it do gives 3 attacks. True. I got no match for this. Except that we got power weapons on all ours, and thats roughly the same amount of dead power armors in the end. (30 attacks vs 10 attacks power weapons)

that was made on the assumption of Purifiers, which is actually 20 PW attacks, 30 on the charge. Alot of very dead chosen.

 

 

 

Not sayin..... just sayin....

 

hmm I think I was talking about Strike squads. Since that was the initial comparison. But Purifiers would be the right unit to compare with and then it would be 20 force weapon attacks. And thats alot more interesting than 27 CC attacks and 3 power weapon attacks.

[Gentlemanloser]

/shrug

 

Compare them to Purifiers if you want. :D

 

Purifiers are just *better* Strikes. And if Chosen beat out Pruifiers, well, I hope you get the point. ;)

 

they have differing strengths and weaknesses -- and that's as it should be.

 

What are the Number6?

 

Chosen don't get acces too force weapons. They have better shooting, better CC, better survivability, better options, etc, etc.

 

Anyway, I was originally drawn to Chosen becuase I mistakenly thought they could all upgrade to Combi-bolters, but you can only do that with a MSU 5 man squad. ;)

 

that was made on the assumption of Purifiers, which is actually 20 PW attacks, 30 on the charge. Alot of very dead chosen.

 

No, it was Strikes (and should be 11). If we give charges then it's

 

40 CCW versus 21 (strikes)/ 30 (Purifiers).

 

And if we're worried about unit versus unit (and not just killing PA in general) then you give the Chosen the MoS and force the Strikes/Puri's to buy Halberds to go first..

 

Or, we could give the chosen MoK and give them 50 CCW attacks on the charge. And with VotLW, rerolls as well.

[Vash]

Lets just agree that Chosen are a great unit, but they come at a cost. There are units in almost any army that can counter them in one way or another.

Generally I dislike comparing units to each other, as usually one unit is clearly better (due to options and what not). For me it comes down to what the rest of the army has in combination to the compared unit.

[Gentlemanloser]

What does the Chaos army lack?

 

Scoring TDA is probably about it.

 

Better Psychics, the first army to get Flakk, Vector Striking Zooming Flyers and more MCs than you can shake a stick at.

[number6]

I'm not sure why you're all upset about Chosen, GM. They're Elites. You'll never see that many of them outside of specialized builds.

 

Which means they're just another Marine unit that dies as easily as other Marines when at range.

 

I don't agree with your flat assessment that they "outshoot" Purifiers. Stormbolters vs TL-bolters is reasonably equivalent. Stormbolters have the edge at greater distances, TL-bolters the edge closer in. It's up to player tactics to maximize range band advantages.

 

In CC, I think it comes down to who can arrange the charge. If Purifiers charge, they would likely do more damage than they would receive. If the Chosen charge, I coiuld forsee the opposite result.

 

The imbalance simply isn't as large as you make it out to be.

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't agree with your flat assessment that they "outshoot" Purifiers.

 

It's not really the Combi Bolters.

 

But the ability to have 5 Meltas/Plasma. Or a mix and match. Including Lascannon and Autocannon.

 

I just fixated on Combi Bolters as it's the closest load out to our Storm Bolters. :D

[spartan249]

Speaking further of unit comparisons, purifiers dominate the shooting phase compared to chosen given that they get more shots at midrange, with quite a bit of psycannon fire mixed in. In a realistic match-up between the two, the chosen are looking at a huge uphill battle as they have to weather at least 2 turns of shooting (if not more) to get a chance at CC. I'd take purifiers over chosen in many different situations, as they are effective against a wider range of targets then chosen.

[Vash]

GK are mid range specialists. That we all know. Almost all our weapons are set at 24".

 

Chaos have the option to be long range, but truly shines at close range (12").

 

I have no doubt that Chaos will win a shot out at close range, but as mentioned, GK have midrange advantage, and will use it to its maximum.

As spartan says, there will be atleast 2 turns of mid range shooting when comparing the two.

 

Adding 5 special weapons will be expensive. Meltaguns will be 50 pts and plasmaguns will be 75 pts.

Meltas are cheaper, but needs to be within short range.

Plasmas have mid range, but also has the negative effect of "gets hot".

 

Anyhow, said it before. I think the chosen will be a nice addition to Chaos. Hoping that they will give us some resistance.

[DK1]

I love that this is a fight over GK and Chaos, i cant wait to really get down and dirty vs some Chaos and see if they hold up.

[the jeske]

realy in hth chosen die because GK will strike before them and negate any form of champion taken by chaos , unless boon was taken and someone was lucky enough to get +1 armor .

 

as shoting goes 5 plasma cost ton of points and does dudes die like normal marines . puris or strike too . but they generate more shots 5 shots from plasma vs 2 psycannons+stormbolters kill more unless somehow the GK player let 5 plasma guns get in to under 18" range without countering .

[Gentlemanloser]

realy in hth chosen die because GK will strike before them

 

How? You purchase Halberds for Strikes?

 

Sure, Purifiers would go before them. At 26 points per. But that probably when you look to Possessed, with thier 5++ Save (or 4++ if you shell out for the expensive T mark).

 

Also, has anyone else noticed that there's now 1+ Armour saves in the game? Sure a roll of a 1 still fails, but at least you get an armour save versus AP2 weapons...

[Ifrit446]

So forgive me if this is wrong...but this seems like a crying thread from an upset Grey Knight player. It seems like you're trying to argue that Chaos Chosen are "better" than your codex's veteran power-armored unit, through any means necessary which now includes bringing up Possessed as another somewhat random argument.

 

Did you forget that you get preferred enemy against ANYTHING that counts as a daemon, which we have QUITE A FEW OF!!

 

So if you are indeed hating on another codex, please stop before you consider all of the variables and remember that its just a game and Chosen are just ONE unit. Otherwise it just makes you look like a guy whos whining that his codex will get beaten by a single unit from another codex, and thats just not cool or fun to be around.

[Gentlemanloser]

I thought I mentioned in my OP this wasn't a Chaos versus GK face off, who will win!!! Post.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I apologise.

 

If anytihng it's a /sigh codex creep post.

[the jeske]

/shrug

 

Compare them to Purifiers if you want.

yeah it is not like you asked to compare them with purfiries right ? GK strike have no tax to be used , chosen have and it is a huge one . then remember that chaos doesnt have a good way to get abadon in to hth and he doesnt nothing outside of hth save for making chosen scoring.

 

Sure, Purifiers would go before them. At 26 points per. But that probably when you look to Possessed, with thier 5++ Save (or 4++ if you shell out for the expensive T mark).

aha and those possessed strike last in hth because they dont have frags , a realy golden unit that does only hth.

you want to check how much chosen cost after abadon tax with marks and icons , first maybe .

and even in the open those dudes still hit slower and die to number of attacks because *gasp* they are 1w t4 with a +3sv. against everything . against GK they have the problem of being demonic.