Lord_Edgimus Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 having purchased a Horus Heresy: Betrayal book from games day I have been pondering about one of the things in it. can't go posting the whole allies chart but one thing in it has me curious. Our only battle brothers are the salamanders. Now, i'm simply putting this down to some form of black library book yet to happen, but i wanted to open it out to everyone on here for possible info: Do we know any warhammer 30k info that says we're best buddies with the salamanders? Would it still be relevant to modern 40k fluff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Interesting... I personally am not aware of any reason in particular for this to be case... Sounds interesting though! Maybe BL will lose it's monopoly on developing 30k fluff? ;) My copy of Betrayal is in the mail I'm told, so I am... envious? As it being relevant to 40k, we do not have any indication (we hardly have indications for 30k apart from a table from what you tell us). But I bet that the change in the Unforgiven agenda following the Fall, would not allow for any special friend - certainly not the most altruistic Chapter... What others think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 That would be super awesome if the Lion and Vulkan were best bros. It is so left field I would love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paranoidhal86 Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 yeah ive read tons of heresy stuff and vulkan hardly gets a mention? i heard there was a heresy book about the salamanders but it was audio only or limted release or somthing not too sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Wasn't the Lion a bit of a loner anyhow? That'd explain in part why he isn't exactly buddies with everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Sometime ago Candleshoes posted this, which I found intersting and amusing... I can't believe no one has mentioned or put up the Tarot analysis of the Lion up yet, as well as his match ups with his brothers. This can be taken a lot of different ways and is always interpreted differently by everyone that looks at it. There is much we can apply from this quilt of information to how the Dark Angels behave in the current 40k lore. Enjoy: IX - The Hermit I - Lion El'Jonson Astrological: Virgo Ruler: I Exalts: I Fall: III Detriment: X Alchemical: Distillation Qabala: 20th path Character of the Lion: The Hermit is withdrawn and introspective, quiet and reserved. He will only let a select few whom he trusts completely past his guard, if he does not shun company entirely. Very aware of small details, he has a tendency to be highly critical, both of others and of himself. He has a distinct tendency to brood on things, trying to piece together vast amounts of small details into a coherent whole and agonizing over anything that doesn't fit. He will rarely share his thoughts with anyone without encouragement, preferring to keep to himself unless specifically called upon. He may project unapproachability, probably by giving the constant impression that there is something very important preying on his mind (which may not be a false impression). Interruptions to his thoughts or other annoyances will probably make him suddenly irritable and scathing. Despite being withdrawn and quiet, there is also a strong restlessness to the Hermit which tends to manifest on a small scale; tension, sleeplessness or a tendency to pace or fidget when deep in thought, which is most of the time. The Hermit forms a trio with the Hierophant (Lorgar) and the Devil (Peturabo), focused on knowledge and ideological structure. The Hermit attempts to study and understand the universe, the Heirophant codifies and teaches, and the Devil represents suspicion and pressure caused by the rigidity of such structures. This trio in turn represents three aspects of the personality of the World (The Imperium). At best, keenly observant, an extremely sharp and logical thinker, self-sufficient and practical. At worst, overly critical, self-abusive, irritable, not forthcoming and unassertive, and unable to see the wood for the trees. Relations with his brother Primarchs: Magnus the Red - The Magus: An extremely valuable relationship. The Hermit focuses the Magus's intellect onto concrete, practical goals, particularly how to improve situations. Together they can form practical but brilliant plans, whereas alone the Hermit will tend simply to brood over and over on one thing and the Magus will veer off towards the impractically baroque and grandiose. They understand each other's desire for solitude, ironically allowing them to spend time together without grating on each other's nerves. (Mercury/Gemini [Mercury Rules, Mercury Exalted]) Fulgrim - The Empress: Brings out each other's obsession with detail and perfectionism. Probably constantly criticising each other. The Empress cannot understand the Hermit's withdrawal and self-imposed asceticism, nor the Hermit the Empress's gregariousness and materialism. (Venus/Virgo [Venus in Fall]) Hours Lupercal - The Emperor: There is some hidden, behind-the-scenes connection between these two, which should make their interaction slightly more harmonious despite their lack of common ground. (Aries/Virgo [Quincunx Antiscia]) Lorgar - The Hierophant: Both are hardworking and have high and exacting standards. In addition, the Hermit can debate the Hierophant's dogma on his own level, making the Hierophant more aware of flaws in his thinking. The Hierophant can bring the Hermit, or at least his input, out of his self-imposed withdrawal and into the wider world. Should be a good and productive relationship, though the Empress may be a point of contention between them. (Taurus/Virgo [Earth Trine]) Alpharius Omegon - The Lovers: Tension. Under pressure from each other, both tend to withdraw rather than deal with each other head on. The Hermit demands focus and peace, whereas the Lovers prefers stimulation and can have a short attention span. (Gemini/Virgo [Mutable Square]) Roboute Guilliman - The Chariot: Mutual understanding based on desire for certainty. The relationship can look decidedly bland and dull from the outside, but neither the Hermit or the Chariot care. (Cancer/Virgo [sextile]) Ferrus Manus - Justice: Little in common, and make each other uncomfortable. (Virgo/Libra [semi-Sextile]) Vulkan - Strength: Little in common. Will probably avoid each other, and will quickly get on each other's nerves if forced to spend time together. (Leo/Virgo [semi-Sextile]) Sanguinius - The Hanged Man: While unlikely to come into contact much, understand each other on their own level and cooperate nicely. The Hermit may well be sceptical of the Hanged Man's moments of pure insight. Mortarion - Death: Mutual understanding, based on withdrawal and depth. They will find a lot in common if they get to know each other, but stubborness over disgreements could sour things. (Virgo/Scorpio [sextile]) The Khan - Temperance: Tension. Under pressure from each other, both tend to withdraw rather than deal with each other head on. (Virgo/Sagittarius [Mutable Square]) Peturabo - The Devil: The least alike of the Hierophant-Hermit-Devil trio. Both can see potential in the other, but may also have reservations unless they get to know each other well. (Virgo/Capricorn [Earth Trine]) Angron - The Tower: The Hermit can focus the Tower better than most, but things rapidly deteriorate if he tries to bog the Tower down in the details of his plans. (Mars/Virgo) Corax - The Star: Tension. Likely to get into intense intellectual debates that both sulk about afterwards. (Virgo/Aquarius [Quincunx Inconjunct]) Konrad Curze - The Moon: Both are withdrawn and have a tendancy towards self-sacrifice. However, the Hermit attempts to create structure while the Moon denies and destroys it. An understanding of each other can be achieved, but the relationship will be tense. (Virgo/Pisces [Opposition]) Rogal Dorn - The Sun: The Hermit's withdrawal is not easy for the Sun to deal with, and if the Sun appears too prideful the Hermit can turn quite critical. (Sol/Virgo) Leman Russ - The Last Judgement: Unlikely to come into contact much, and will barely tolerate each other when they do. The Hermit will be baffled by the Last Judgement and constantly criticise his impulsiveness, lack of discipline, and everything else that makes up his personality. The Last Judgement will quickly have an explosive reaction to the Hermit's constant nagging, but just as quickly get over it, an attitude which the Hermit will not understand at all. ** Edit This came from a full list of the 22 Tarot cards, matched up with 20 Primarchs, The Emperor and the Imperium. As to who originally created them, I am unsure. Where is Candleshoes btw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paranoidhal86 Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 holy :down: the above post blew my mind need a bit more explanation, so does each primarch represent a tarot character ? if so what are the other characters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Nope. Just an interpretation by Candleshoes. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I don't see a problem with this friendship. Fulgrim: I just can't imagine the Lion being friends with him. The primary issue, I think, would be that the two are polar opposites in terms of demeanor. Beyond that, though, Fulgrim had close ties with Horus - whom the Lion I think would perceive as a natural rival. Perturabo: I could see the two respecting each other from a distance. But Perturabo isn't simply a loner like the Lion... he's sullen and impersonable. I don't think the two would ever become anything other than civil. The Khan: I see a bond of general respect here, but no more. Lion El'Jonson almost certainly had a Machiavellian streak, but ultimately I think his goals were altruistic - he fought for the greater good of the people of Caliban. By contrast, the Khan was a more "pure warrior", if you will. He would have fought for the sake of fighting. And I'm not sure the Lion would have eyed favorably the more barbaric aspects of the Khan's style of warfare. Russ: Need I say anything? Dorn: Honestly, I'm surprised we weren't made friends with their Legion/Primarch. Unlike Horus, I don't see Dorn being perceived as a potential rival... even if you want to take Horus' word for it that the Lion was hungry for the throne. Which I don't. Curze: It's no surprise that the Lion would feel a kinship toward Curze - if only initially. They shared a similar background, and - unlike Russ - Curze would have shown a similar enough temperament. Aloof, alone, and keeping his own counsel. Of course, it would only have taken one campaign alongside the Night Lords for the Lion to give up on that friendship. Sanguinius: I can only see the Lion forsaking a friendship with him because of his bond with Horus. Ferrus Manus: Too tempestuous, too quick to anger. Angron: Ever more so than Ferrus. Guilliman: Another brother whom I can only see the Lion avoiding as a potential rival... assuming Horus was on the money. Personally, though, I think the Lion avoided him more so because he didn't trust Guilliman's ambition... not because he saw him as a competitor for the throne. By that, I mean that the Lion was a pragmatist. Horus, Dorn, Guilliman, etc., were by default going to have superior "rank" given that the Lion only showed up about 50 years before the Heresy. Thus, I don't see him seriously worrying about gaining authority until AFTER Horus turned traitor and thus threw the chain of command up in the air. Mortarion: The Primarchs share some things in common in terms of demeanor... but, like Curze, I don't see the aloof yet knight-like Lion seeing Mortarion as a true friend. Magnus: Another one I don't understand. Magnus is gregarious enough to compensate for the Lion's insular nature, and should have appealed to the Lion's cerebral side. The only thing I can imagine here is that while the Lion wasn't prejudiced against Librarians his life in Caliban turned him against sorcery... Horus: See Guilliman. Lorgar: Had Lorgar not already decided to champion Chaos by the time the Lion was found, I think the two of them would have been good friends. As things stand, I think Lorgar realized that it wasn't in the cards to turn the Lion... and thus simply left him be. Vulkan: Here's a friendship I do understand. Vulkan is gregarious, humble, solemn, and also was defined by his protectiveness toward the people of his planet. Even if the Lion is a loner, I can definitely see these two and their respective Legions getting along well. Corax: Another friendship I would have thought would made sense for the Lion. Alpharius: No surprise here. Between the Lion's solitary nature and Alpharius' secretive ways, these two would have respected each other... but little else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I kinda always assumed that the two would at least get along. Based on the Lion's actions during his time on Caliban he comes off as something of a humanitarian. That only gets diminished as he becomes more introverted with his exposure to the larger galaxy. He'd probably have all sorts of positive philosophical discussions with his dark skinned brother on the nature of humanity, the crusades goals, and the purposes of Astartes in a post-Great Crusade world. I don't think he'd like how the Imperium turned out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen Avenger Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 im keen to have the salamanders as allies now been looking a few days for models like but that chapter seems very rare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 AFAIK, the only salamander models are vulkan and some metal shoulder pads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 You can get some extra bits from Forge World to convert your models into Salamanders, and they also have doors for rhinos and land raiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynamicspartan Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I find this interesting as Descent of Angels shows the Dark Angels having a pretty good relationship with the White Scars. That could be just that they are brothers by battle and are respectful with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Well, I like this news. My two Imperial armies can now be best buds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Interestingly, My one grand Apocalypses game where two of us fielded 30K+ in TDA was a Salamander player. So yes I would say that their is a precedence for cooperation between the two factions. Linky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I like what Phoebus posted. It would be interesting if the Lion had a dossier on each of the Primarchs. I definitely can see the many of the relationships. The Dorn relationship ostensibly seems to be logical. However, despite the lion being a Knight, he seems to favor "the end justifies the means" approach to warfare and we know the Dorn does not agree with that. ------- What if the Lion makes a side trip to look for Vulkan. Or has he been retconned and is now dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I think the thing is, the Lion doesn't really, can't really, trust anyone, besides the Emperor. I think Vulkan might have had the quiet, taciturn, type of wisdom to handle the Lion without taking offence or alienating the Lion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangelus Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Just as Augustus suggested: How did Vulkan escape from Isstvan V? We know from established fluff that he did not die there (please correct me if I am wrong). Maybe a future Black Libary book will shed some light over this involving the Lion and the 1st Legion. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Apparently he is cited as being for/against the splitting of the legions. (Don't remember) He also hid some weapons and artifacts across the galaxy along with the legend that if all are found he will return. Aegnor could very well be right in that the Lion could give a rat's behind. However, he may have a soft spot for ol' Vulky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Just as Augustus suggested: How did Vulkan escape from Isstvan V? We know from established fluff that he did not die there (please correct me if I am wrong). Maybe a future Black Libary book will shed some light over this involving the Lion and the 1st Legion. What do you think? Without going off sub-forum topic, Nick Kyme has a Salamanders HH book in the pipeline. Name eludes me at the moment, but we've seen the cover art (two marines approaching an ornate "Salamander-ish" helm on black pebbly ground.) Edit: found it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen Avenger Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 got to admit that helmet looks sick and just had a thought with the new HH models coming out surely FW and hopefully GW release some decent salamanders models as opposed to just generic SM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Dear God, Vulkan was gigantic! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 It might simply be Vulkan was friendly towards all, rather than the Lion having a predilection for the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Well my Deathwing just teamed up with the Sallies and we got our butts handed to us by a Necron/CSM team up. All in all it was a good time but whew, it stung. For the amount of models the crons can field, and it is my army the guy used and his first time fielding them, just couldn't do enough damage. New CSM, well, I like 'em! The dex seems nice but STILL NO LEGIONS BOOK! I digress. I like that we have a battle brothers army out there. Now to figure out my DA's next move...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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