Dissapointments with the new codex.

[Sception]

Yeah, ward has problems, but I think sometimes they're a bit overblown.

[Killax]

In Ward's defense (ugh...can't believe I just typed that)

Agent Ferrum has been compromised. Must terminate subject.

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPRAH!

[Brother Ambroz]

In Ward's defense (ugh...can't believe I just typed that)

Agent Ferrum has been compromised. Must terminate subject.

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPRAH!

 

This was the first thing I laughed at this morning....that was good haha. Almost spilt coffee over the computer at work..

[Raven Angel]

Well Ward keeps getting crap mainly from the GK dex and to be honest having read the whole thing I cant really say it was his fault for 3 reasons one he had to create a new SM chapter from what was essentially whole cloth, which hasn't been done on that scale since the BT dex was done and two he had to keep it within the context of the Demon codex as to how Chaos was and how they fight them, and third well GK where suppose to be the baddest of the bad, the most powerful chapter in the whole Imperium. It was a no win job If he nurfed them, he would catch hell, if the dex was mediocre he'd catch hell, so he wrote them like the fluff and gave a real Inquisitional feel in their attitude. For all the wining that they a broken and wrong if you compare them to the other fluff for GK and the Ordo Malius in general they are the closest dex to spot on we have had since the 3.5 Chaos dex. People thought that was broken too but it wasn't, it was fluffy and the rules played to that.

 

You See these are fluffy armies. Just like DE, Crons, and BA. SW and Orks are but not as completely as they could be. What does this mean for balance? Well in truth it shows a path forward that could lead to the best armies 40K has ever seen. Hear me out; if every single codex where written to maximize the fluff in the rules these armies would ALL be awesome. While the round of updates would be painful for older codexs the payoff would great. The 3.5 dex wasn't OP. It was an aberation in it's time but only because all the other dexes were so underpowered. Just like GK does today, 3.5 pointed the way forward to a future of both fluffy and balanced codexs. You see if all the dexes were that fluffy they would all be on the same footing and there would be nothing to complain about and they would all be future proof.

 

What we saw in the last couple of years of 5th was a real move in that direction. This is why those dexes played so well against each other. I can only hope that the current Chaos dex doesn't represent a halting of that trend as we will all be the poorer for it. Yes the new dex is a step in the right direction but I feel confident in saying didn't go far enough and considering the quality work Phill has done in the past I would say someone else set the course of this book. If Kelly had had a free hand we would have gotten something like the DE dex in power instead. That said I think the Chaos dex is beginning to suffer from the same over generalized ma laze that afflicts C:SM.

[Minsc]

I don't disslike Ward for GK (although I don't like that codex) - I disslike Ward for Necrons, which imo is the current toptier army.

Necron's is supposed to be written for 6th, and it sure shows that it is - and it's on a entirely different powerlevel than CSM, despite them being written for the same edition.

 

It's impossible to win against certain Necron-lists with CSM without allies.

I faced a list this weekend (2500 pts I think, might have been 2250) and he brought a Necron Overlord in Command Barge, Necron Destroyerlord, 2x6 wraiths, 1x5 destroyers, 2x10 warriors with haywire-crypteks, 1x5 deathmarks with ldflamer-cryptek, 3 monoliths and 3 nightscythes. This list wiped the floor with my balanced allcommerslist, and the battle felt hopeless before we had even started. I was wiped in turn 4. And the worst thing is that while this is a nasty list, it's far from the worst Necrons can bring at that pointlevel.

I should also note that me and my opponent are equally good players.

 

I also disslike Ward because he single-handedly ruined 7th Ed. Fantasy, but that's a different story.

[Killax]

Ward created the Space Marine, the Grey Knights and the Blood Angels.

The units we hate, at least if your not a newb.

 

In short, he created the current Space Marines, he be DA EMPRAH.

 

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPRAH! LET THE GALAXY BURN!

 

Goodbye,

[Iron Sage]

He sadly has a certain expertise in destroying the meta, forcing people to take quite boring lists to tourneys etc., just so that it will be possible to deal with his attrocious codices.

[Minsc]

In short, he created the current Space Marines, he be DA EMPRAH.

 

Oh, clap clap clap clap clap!

I see what you did there.

[Raven Angel]

Well I don't know what happened in WFB but I would say the Necron problem is not Ward's fault. He didn't write CSM and the Necron dex is what 18 months old or more. In this instance you are hateing on the wrong guy. If you need to blame anyone start with 10 guys on Page 2 who play tested this beast and failed to make the case that the dex wasn't powerful enough.

[Killax]

In short, he created the current Space Marines, he be DA EMPRAH.

 

Oh, clap clap clap clap clap!

I see what you did there.

 

Well, it is the truth. If we look at the current strenght of certain armies we see something that is comparable with the great crusade of DA EMPRAH.

Everyone and his mother wants to play the SM armies and in all honesty it's the better option to do so. CSM hate this and are the only real resistance against Matt Ward.

 

Horus had visions of people only willing to play with armies that originate out of Matt Wardian codexi, this was the reason he went all HERESY.

 

Support the Chaos Gods, kill Matt Ward.

 

Cheers,

[the jeske]

he killed 7th ed by doing demons . And claimed he made the orc WFB weaker because they "felt too strong" .

[Circus Nurgling]

I don't disslike Ward for GK (although I don't like that codex) - I disslike Ward for Necrons, which imo is the current toptier army.

Necron's is supposed to be written for 6th, and it sure shows that it is - and it's on a entirely different powerlevel than CSM, despite them being written for the same edition.

 

It's impossible to win against certain Necron-lists with CSM without allies.

I faced a list this weekend (2500 pts I think, might have been 2250) and he brought a Necron Overlord in Command Barge, Necron Destroyerlord, 2x6 wraiths, 1x5 destroyers, 2x10 warriors with haywire-crypteks, 1x5 deathmarks with ldflamer-cryptek, 3 monoliths and 3 nightscythes. This list wiped the floor with my balanced allcommerslist, and the battle felt hopeless before we had even started. I was wiped in turn 4. And the worst thing is that while this is a nasty list, it's far from the worst Necrons can bring at that pointlevel.

I should also note that me and my opponent are equally good players.

 

I also disslike Ward because he single-handedly ruined 7th Ed. Fantasy, but that's a different story.

 

What allies might that be?

[the jeske]

IG for example . Or demons.

 

by the way that necron list was a bad one .

[Killax]

I wish the new codex had the following designer note on Veterans of the Long War:

 

"Chaos Space Marines with the Veterans of the Long War special rule have hatred against all units from codexi written by Matt Ward."

 

Small change, better effect. Let's hope it's in the next FAQ.

 

Cheers,

[Prot]

As someone who played Necrons for years, and then found the new codex exciting but a bit limited... it feels good to me that you guys consider Necrons good in 6th!

 

I think of how many Blood Angel, Space Wolves, and Grey Knight lists that spanked me and I don't feel bad for those guys I'll tell you. (BTW: IG is still a massive threat to most Necron lists.)

 

Getting back on topic....

 

I gave up on Chaos after years of trying to make a square peg (Gav) fit in a round hole (competitive 40K).

 

I was so excited that Chaos was back... I feared for some of it because of the author but I have to admit, the idea that Chaos might be 'super potent' again was something I was ok with... after years of Gav-dex, who wouldn't welcome a flip over to the 'o.p.' side of gaming?

 

I don't want this to sound too negative but I'm thoroughly disappointed with the new codex... a lot of stuff you guys already said is well documented, and I agree with a lot of it.

 

I'm going to touch on something that really is bothering me... the Champion of Chaos rule. I know Nihm says he found the "Hidden Nerf" but I found the real -hidden- nerf... Challenges.

 

Being forced to challenge, in my opinion, is such a hindrance sometimes. In my testing, I found my opponents quickly caught on that yes, it was a good idea to let Dev squad Vanilla Marine Sergeant Joe, take all the hits from my uber HQ.

 

Unless going against a truly nasty HTH character model, I'd say 9/10 times, being forced to challenge works against you. It's actually a way to contain incoming damage.... by accepting the challenge. I hate this rule.

 

To test my theory I started telling my opponents to try and accept any challenge they can and at first they didn't quite get why... but after a few times, they understood how badly this rule could handicap me in close combat. Fluffy? Sure. Competitive? Most certainly not.

[the jeske]

I wish the new codex had the following designer note on Veterans of the Long War:

 

"Chaos Space Marines with the Veterans of the Long War special rule have hatred against all units from codexi written by Matt Ward."

 

Small change, better effect. Let's hope it's in the next FAQ.

 

Cheers,

dude this is the 3ed post from you I see today and all 3 were trolling . either make it worth by doing it in a funny way or stop . unless of course this is for post number count . then it is ok .

[Killax]

Nahh, enough with the rants.

But I guess most dissapoints are allready mentioned.

 

The biggest problem I have is that I feel certain units are lacking in our codex, which makes it feel unfinished.

 

The challenges can be annoying. But I feel we should win most of them anyway (where it counts).

The Boon table adds some "fun". But I feel its more time consuming that anything else.

 

We got the "lets go on an experiment" codex again and guess the next will be the same ^_^.

 

Cheers,

[Sception]

He's not responsible, however, for the Space Wolves, which basically are chaos's gimmick of character heavy barbarianish mid range & melee specialized marines only just plain better. They were us but better under our 4th ed book, and they're us but better under our new 6th ed book, too. Apart from bike spam, which is the one thing we do best at the moment, and even then we'll only be the best at that for a couple months.

[Vilicate]

I'm going to touch on something that really is bothering me... the Champion of Chaos rule. I know Nihm says he found the "Hidden Nerf" but I found the real -hidden- nerf... Challenges.

 

Being forced to challenge, in my opinion, is such a hindrance sometimes. In my testing, I found my opponents quickly caught on that yes, it was a good idea to let Dev squad Vanilla Marine Sergeant Joe, take all the hits from my uber HQ.

 

Unless going against a truly nasty HTH character model, I'd say 9/10 times, being forced to challenge works against you. It's actually a way to contain incoming damage.... by accepting the challenge. I hate this rule.

 

To test my theory I started telling my opponents to try and accept any challenge they can and at first they didn't quite get why... but after a few times, they understood how badly this rule could handicap me in close combat. Fluffy? Sure. Competitive? Most certainly not.

 

To be fair Prot, is that more of a symptom of this edition rather than the Chaos book? Yeah, sure it's limiting to have to challenge every turn with your chaos lord, but if you didn't challenge, what's there to prevent them from challenging you? And if you didn't have a sgt to step up and take this (who could be the one issuing the challenge in the first place) then what exact change is there?

 

Challenges are a way to mitigate damage to your squad. It can actually be a bonus if they accept; you might be able to stay in combat rather than getting shot again.

[Chimerical]

Yeah, 'Champions of Chaos' is bad because the challenge mechanic itself is bad. It's just another way that this edition privileges the shooty-defensive lists.

 

Chimerical's three ways to fix challenges:

1. Drop it.

2. Make it only between HQ characters.

3. Allow HQs to refuse challenges from squad-level characters without negating their own attacks and leadership.

 

Also, make 'over-kill' wounds from challenges count for assault results.

[zyl-]

Challenges are helpful to do the good old "win in opponent's assault phase" trick against weaker units, but I am of the opinion that many of the chaos players are looking to our codex for alternatives that involve more guns and less axes. Mele was weakened quite a bit in this edition with overwatch and power weapons, so now he who has the boss shooting army is more so the boss.

 

I know i'm certainly trying to outgun rather than assault vs blood angels, which is just a total loss for me even with berzerkers.

[SamaNagol]

Phil Kelly wrote a really good codex.... then got scared and over costed most of the core things to avoid creating another C:SW *shrugs*

 

Oh and I am pretty certain at least 4 Daemon Weapons must have been left out from the dev stage

[Legatus]

I guess my biggest gripe with the new Codex is that, some point cost changes aside, GW essentially has players pay 30£/50$ for the dubious privilege to be able to buy the new model kits.

[hornywingythingy]

he killed 7th ed by doing demons . And claimed he made the orc WFB weaker because they "felt too strong" .

 

7th was broken/dying well before fantasy demons came out in 7th, 7th was an edition of terrible power rush, not creep, where previous dexes were smashed by the next to be released, demons honestly wasn't that bad a dex to face, there were some power builds, and some awful sh*t, and ward got a hell of a lot of stick for it. Orcs and goblins needed a nerf, they were very powerful, though I'm not sure I view the ward ONG dex as a nerf.

 

Tbh, 8th fantasy is a far superior set of rules, and barring the abberation of the ogres book, the armybooks seem balanced! ;)

 

Or that's my opinion anyhow.

[Hellios]

I'm just glad that the chaos board here as a community has managed to stay in character even with the release of the new codex. Holding onto our bitterness but knowing that one day glory will be ours!

 

I don't think this codex is terrible and certainly somethings have improved. I do however find it lacking compared to some of the other codices. The Chaos codex I feel in someways is one of the hardest to write. On one hand you have so many options and choices in the background marines/daemons/cultists/traitors that it shouldn't be hard to come up with good ideas, but on the other it would be a huge book if you included everything, hard to balance if you want to make most chaos undecided and cult lists viable and as everyone has their own view on chaos and their own ideas on what kind of force they want to make it is very hard to keep everyone happy.

 

I do feel this codex missed a few minor changes that wouldn't have affected the power level of the codex in a huge way, but would have made players happier.'

For example HQs being Daemon Prince, Lord, 2 wound HQ 'lieutenant' in line with sorcerers/apostles/warpsmiths and then being able to buy sorcerer, apostle or smith as upgrades to at least the lord and the lieutenant.

 

Things I think are fairly small changes that would have made a significant difference.