Dissapointments with the new codex.

[Vorganov]

Hello, this is very interesting thread here on CnB.

To be honest I found new codex disappointing in some parts, but here and there I am always disappointed, because I am awaiting something different, and my point of view on the fluff based gaming is totaly different from that of Matt Ward. respective - I am still waiting that sometimes, we get the narrative wargame, we will "forge the narrative" and get codex, where fluff and rules are at once - continuing and successive.

 

The fluff part in tho codex with most of the pictures are great (well they are realy hellish). Kelly is very good in these parts. However the Rules are for me huge disappointing. Mainly with connection between fluff and the rules.

 

The first thing is the price which 1/20 of average sallary in Czech Republic. It is not a cheap thing. I thing that these rates, there will be less and less players who bought every codex. But anyway we are small country, without influence of GW market results.

 

The second thing is, that the codex again covered by rules only the „big players“ – World Bearers, Thousand Sons, Black Legion, Emperors Chosen. But what about the others? I realy miss something like chapter tactics from Space Marines Codex. I know this codex is mainly about renegades and cults, however there are a lot of players interested in the legions.

 

I thing that Veteran of the Long War should substitute it for some other minor changes – like Infiltrate for Alpha Legion squads or Fear for Night lords squad. And of course with the proper Character. Still there is missing the continuity and succession. Either there are 10 000 old veterans looking for vengeance or who likes killing, collecting, listening. On the other side renegades who hates the shackles of the Empire, or find out other motivation. But there is nothing like it. You get 4 marks, 5 banners (4 of them should be taken only with particular mark) and thats all the combinations you have... Some of them with real „benefiting“ rules like soulblaze rounds.

 

The „Rule“ tree should look like

Chaos Lord ->Veteran of the Long War ->Colours of the 8th legion->Chaos Lord and his unit, and Chosen benefits from the Fear USR. Of course Mark of Gods should be taken as well.

Chaos Lord ->Path fo the Renegade->Path of Blood->Chaos lord and his unit and Chosen benefits for the Furious Charge USR.

 

Of course there should problem with balancing such a game however nowadays there are no army rules benefits for the Chaos.

 

Regarding the Champions of Chaos, you are of course nerfed that you are obliged to accept the challenge. But thats not nerf at all. If I will attack with my Dark Eldar Archon with 7 attacks on STR6 (Soul Trap, Djin Blade) everybody will issue the challenge as well and I will accept. The missing of overkill is problem of the Ruleset, not Codex. But the benefit from this rule is realy weird. To change my Ahriman into spawn is realy something I am looking forward. And I wander what the Magnus will say when Ahzek will be Daemon Prince.

 

When we are speaking about Ahriman. He is greatest psycher in the galaxy, except Eldrad, Magnus and the husk of Emperor. He was greatest diviner, has the collection of spells from Magnus, he is riding the bookstores, and libraries, looking for Black Library (its in England dude). However he forgotts alll about divination afterwards? Where is the continuity in this? (Speaking about fluff, not Thousand Sons Novella). Or do you thing that schemes of the Tzeench doesnt need divination? Same with the Tzeentch Sorcerers – they are limited in powers access.

 

And finnaly the cultists. I am very glad about them, they get new feeling into the game, however why there are not any cultists characters? Cultist Sorcerers, Plague Bearers, Assassins – that will bring additional interest into the game.

 

Realy the biggest problems I have with the game is on rules influence on the fluff. Still there are some things I realy dont understand:

 

Chosen – point sink for nothing now in my point of view. At least they should have option to buy special rules.

 

Khorne Berzerkers – 4pts extra for WS5 and Furious Charge is not so big difference for „elite“ choice. Now they have the great Chain Axe... But Chosen from World Eaters cannot have them ;-D

 

And finnaly – I dont want to play the daemon engines. I want to play the CHSM codex and not codex Daemons. How should I kill CronAir, Vendetta Wing, I thing that we are VERY limited in options regarding the combinations and equipment.

 

The Dragon - are we playing fantasy or sci-fi? What the hell the helldrake is doing in my 40K codex? Moreover - without it we are not able to shoot down single aircraft

[the jeske]

I posted this idea for w40k tier lists warmahordes style , some time ago and people liked it a lot .

For example .

AL rebelion force:

you can only use markless units and no units with the demonic rules. you cant take special characters . you cant ally with demons . you cant take fortifications .

tier 1

if you take thee cultists units . your csm units get infiltration

 

tier 2[everything tier 1+ tier 2 stuff to get]

if your cultists outnumber your csm/havocks/raptor/biker untis 2:1 your csm/havocks/raptors/biker units and all attached HQ get the shrouding rule.

 

tier 3

[tier 1+tier 2+tier 3stuff]

If you take atleast a 5 man size terminator unit with attached HQ , it gains the deathwing assault special rule[see codex DA].

tier 4

[tier1+tier2+tier3+tier4 stuff]

If non of your chaos space marine units[havocks/terminators/bikers/csm/raptors/chosen] are taken more then once in your list , you can place up to 2 aditional objectives in a game . on turn 2 you can remove up to 2 objectives placed by you or your opponent.

 

 

Al players who wouldnt want to play this would be able to play what ever they want . AL players who did fance a more AL rebelion force would get 4 tiers to pick from . you could play a tier 1 list with many bikes, terminators and just 2 csm 5 mans to hide them using infiltration etc.

 

But GW will never do stuff like that.

[Killax]

But GW will never do stuff like that.

 

Exactly, so why even think it up? <_<

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

But GW will never do stuff like that.

 

Exactly, so why even think it up? :P

 

Sinks home the stark and unyielding reality that GW needs new blood in the design studio not subject to the whimsy of the Old Guard that have clearly lost their way.

[the jeske]

because it would give an identical codex more play time .

For example a WE army

only units with marks of khorn , Khârn , all tanks and transports have the destroyer upgrade. no ally .

tier 1

Infantry units with the mark of khorn and no transport can deploy on the table if they had the infiltration rule.

 

tier 2

For each two units with mark of khorn taken from the csm codex troop section one unit of bloodletters can be taken . those demon units count as if they were taken from codex csm [so scoring , can go in to transports , can be joined by HQs etc] .

 

tier 3

If two or more havock units without hvy weapons are taken ,then all units in the army with the mark of khorn have a fixed 12" charge range .

 

tier 4

For each two 8 man blood letter units the WE play can take a GD of khorn or a bloodthirster from the codex chaos demons . those demons count as if they were taken from the csm codex .

[Prot]

Making lots of lists still... comparing stats, I'm still wondering why I would take Chaos to a tournament over my Space Wolves?(Aside from the flyer) I had assumed that it would be no contest.

 

Personally I give a lot of weight in a codex to its troops. Perhaps more than any other area. It's this area I am struggling with.

 

I'll spend more time with the codex though, and try some more test games.

[Brother Amarel]

Making lots of lists still... comparing stats, I'm still wondering why I would take Chaos to a tournament over my Space Wolves?(Aside from the flyer) I had assumed that it would be no contest.

All I've got there is larger unit size, more powerful sorcs and some advantage to Marks. Plenty of downsides, too, mind.

[Azekai]

more powerful sorcs

Are we reading the same codex? :( Our psyker powers are nothing compared to Njal the Windbreaker and JotWW.

[Brother Amarel]

more powerful sorcs

Are we reading the same codex? :unsure: Our psyker powers are nothing compared to Njal the Windbreaker and JotWW.

Purely in terms of level and cheapness. Njal is still only level 2 (as is a 150pt Master of Runes), while we can hit level 3 for just over 100pts. In terms of actual powers, we're lacking a little comparatively.

[Vilicate]

Making lots of lists still... comparing stats, I'm still wondering why I would take Chaos to a tournament over my Space Wolves?(Aside from the flyer) I had assumed that it would be no contest.

 

Personally I give a lot of weight in a codex to its troops. Perhaps more than any other area. It's this area I am struggling with.

 

I'll spend more time with the codex though, and try some more test games.

 

You've got quite a bit of scoring FnP action in your troops section over Space Wolves, as well better, cheaper Psykers, and some interesting other playstyles. Numbers of models seems to be Chaos' trick in this edition.

 

Honestly, if you're looking for an army that is just really solid in every area, then take Space Wolves. ATSKNF is just an amazing rule in 6th, and combined with the ability to take cheap, powerful melee troops (thunderwolves, LW and SW Characters), great midfield objective takers (GH) and some cheap, very effective support units (LF), it's pretty tough to compare.

 

I'm going to just keep playing chaos, because it's not a marine book. Mostly. Plus it has some really cool options and conversion opportunities and some characterful choices. The only really solid tournament build for chaos revolves around Typhus/Epidemius, plague zombies and lots of shooting + Bikers. At least that I've seen, and can talk about on the B&C.

[the jeske]

as well better, cheaper Psykers,

a RP is just over a 100pts and he has one of the two best items in the whole game the choser and runestaff.

 

and some interesting other playstyles.

SW have slogger, MSU with razors , mecha and drop pod lists . We have mecha slogger and what else ?

 

or am I somehow missunderstanding all of this ?

[JamesI]

Having played several games with the new codex (all as Thousand Sons) I really don't have much of a complaint. Wish I had more variety of units in my figure collection, but that's about it.

[Vilicate]

as well better, cheaper Psykers,

a RP is just over a 100pts and he has one of the two best items in the whole game the choser and runestaff.

 

The Chooser costs points, but is pretty much as good (maybe worse?) than the Spell Familiar. Yeah, the runestaff is very good defense. No question there, but I get a mastery level 3 psyker with Biomancy or Telepathy going on for roughly the same points. Which is nice. Plus, I like the chaos sorcerer's options better than the runepriests.

 

Not to say that the runepriest is bad, or anything, but the chaos sorcerer is also an amazing value for the points. And, in my opinion, much better offensively. Just my thoughts.

 

and some interesting other playstyles.

SW have slogger, MSU with razors , mecha and drop pod lists . We have mecha slogger and what else ?

 

or am I somehow missunderstanding all of this ?

 

Chaos has Horde slogger, biker heavy, and infiltrating elites as good, viable builds.

[Max_Gore]

I wish there was a way to get an additional fast or heavy choice (or make them scoring or something) for the Night Lords and Iron Warriors respectively. Just giving them a nice outlet to make it feel like a theme list.

 

I wanted dreadclaws to be officially in. I know people are generally more lenient with allowing FW these days, but it'd still be nice.

 

Other than that, I like it. Nothing too cheesy and a lot of tough choices for each slot. Plus, Khorne Lords on juggernauts are absolute monsters. I can't wait to face off with my buddy's Thunderwolf lord. Awesome.

[the jeske]

Chaos has Horde slogger, biker heavy, and infiltrating elites as good, viable builds.

geting d3 [so 33% chance to get 1 infiltrating unit] does not make an infiltrating army . and while we use bikers in every army it hardly is a build . If we had better/other bodyguard for lords or lets say MM attack bikes we wouldnt touch bikes with a stick + again 2 units do not make a build .

mecha is a build , because it forces tactics and gear/weapon choice. gunline is a build , drop pod is a build , swarm/tide is a build . using 1 unit unless its something like a 50% cost army unit doesnt make a build .

 

 

The Chooser costs points, but is pretty much as good (maybe worse?) than the Spell Familiar.

the spell familiar gives us re-rolls . while not bad , in fact auto include , it doesnt kill builds like choser does . choser stops infiltration. as long as it exists infiltrating armies will always be bad.

 

No question there, but I get a mastery level 3 psyker with Biomancy or Telepathy going on for roughly the same points.

there is at least a 40-50pts difference .

[Vilicate]

Okay, agree to disagree then. I see good, solid builds there but you do not. I don't think bantering on the forum is going to change either of our minds. If Draigowing can be a build, focusing on a single paladin unit, I don't see why multiple large, fearless fast units can't either. But again, we can argue this around and around in circles, I don't think either of us (especially not me) is going to change one anothers minds.

 

Also, how is 110 pts 40-50 pts different than 100 pts? Explain that to me please. I'm not talking about optimal gear, or upgrades. Please explain how 110pts is 40-50 points more than 100. Thanks.

[Trevak Dal]

The thing is, the 3.5 book isn't even what I want. It was awkward and overcomplicated and way overpowered. But at least it wasn't afraid to let players have cool things.

 

What I mostly wanted was a chaos book on the level of the dark eldar codex. Not as ridiculously overpowered as the grey knight and necron books, but a book with respectable balance full of cool units, interesting options, and special rules designed to make them feel awesome on the table.

 

 

Yes...this so very, very much. I say how I wanted Matt Ward to write it, but something as good and as interesting and fun as the Dark Eldar got is what I really want.

[Dallas Drake]

I wish there was a way to get an additional fast or heavy choice (or make them scoring or something) for the Night Lords and Iron Warriors respectively. Just giving them a nice outlet to make it feel like a theme list.

 

6th can kinda let you do this. Double FOC or Allies; Big Guns & The Scouring.

 

Dallas

[zyl-]

Yeah, but you can't bring you Alpha Legion army to the table banking on getting the scouring.

[the jeske]

6th can kinda let you do this. Double FOC or Allies; Big Guns & The Scouring.

 

Dallas

 

yes and we are coming back to what I said at the start . under 2k points the codex is far less enjoying to play .

[Dallas Drake]

Yeah, but you can't bring you Alpha Legion army to the table banking on getting the scouring.

 

You can't bring any army to the table banking on any mission really. Running a solid build is central (i.e. plenty of troops) & I totally get where people are coming from so I agree to an extent. That said, is there such thing as an Alpha Legion or Night Lords army anyway? The whole Legion/warband thing has been argued to death & I'm not wanting to start that up again, but if you wanted a 'themed' army you can now at least take double FOC at 2K. Then when you do get that mission that helps you out you're in a strong position. I'm sure if you put your mind to it you could pull something off, though whether it would be better than C:SW or C:BA is another discussion.

 

Of course, to keep NL players happy they could have just added in the following;

 

* If a Lord selects a jump pack then Raptors may count as scoring units.

 

Job done. NL players happy. Personally, if I ran Night Lords I'd use C:BA with lots of Fear of the Darkness.

 

Alpha Legion just take counts as Huron. IG allies.

 

Iron Warriors. Counts as Necrons. Allies or double FOC?

 

I play as Word Bearers & IMO I've got a very fluffy & solid build without even using the crappy Dark Apostle too.

 

6th can kinda let you do this. Double FOC or Allies; Big Guns & The Scouring.

 

Dallas

 

yes and we are coming back to what I said at the start . under 2k points the codex is far less enjoying to play .

 

Well play at 2K+ then. I wouldn't even consider playing 40k with any army at <2k these days.

 

DD

[Stormbrow II]

I wonder if pigs will fly before we see these alternative themed builds suggested appear in White Dwarf, which would probably be the best place for them now the Codex has been printed?

[Prot]

Making lots of lists still... comparing stats, I'm still wondering why I would take Chaos to a tournament over my Space Wolves?(Aside from the flyer) I had assumed that it would be no contest.

 

Personally I give a lot of weight in a codex to its troops. Perhaps more than any other area. It's this area I am struggling with.

 

I'll spend more time with the codex though, and try some more test games.

 

You've got quite a bit of scoring FnP action in your troops section over Space Wolves, as well better, cheaper Psykers, and some interesting other playstyles. Numbers of models seems to be Chaos' trick in this edition.

 

Honestly, if you're looking for an army that is just really solid in every area, then take Space Wolves. ATSKNF is just an amazing rule in 6th, and combined with the ability to take cheap, powerful melee troops (thunderwolves, LW and SW Characters), great midfield objective takers (GH) and some cheap, very effective support units (LF), it's pretty tough to compare.

 

I'm going to just keep playing chaos, because it's not a marine book. Mostly. Plus it has some really cool options and conversion opportunities and some characterful choices. The only really solid tournament build for chaos revolves around Typhus/Epidemius, plague zombies and lots of shooting + Bikers. At least that I've seen, and can talk about on the B&C.

 

Vilicate, like me you're old school chaos, and I like that. It's just that we waited so long since 3rd for a good codex. I really thought considering who was writing it, and how poor the last one was that we were going to get something really special here. Especially considering it's the first true codex of 6th, the book has the extra effort put into it... visually it is stunning, and as hardcover it looks great.

 

I typically play in a 1500 point environment; most of our tournaments revolve around that point level and I am having a lot of trouble making -hard- lists that rank with what is currently viable.

 

It just feels a bit disheartening to me right now but I'm sure I'll figure something out that works eventually.... Just so many units seem so bloody horrid right out of the box it really bugs me. Even some 'new' units with wonderful, new models.... they are just falling extremely short of where they should be if GW really wanted to move models.

 

Anyway I'm sure you'll convince me there's value to the codex... Maybe it's just not clicking for me yet, I did have some serious run of bad luck with Huron... we'll see what this week brings. :P

[Panda_]

When some good balanced codex is published, you can see several threads on the whole Bolter and Chainsword discussing about counter-tactics.

 

When a blattantly superior codex is published, the whole blogosphere shatters; Everyone jumps at every one else's neck crying, whining! Rabits multiply themselves slower than the "Help me against CSM" threads !

 

But for this codex, the only one "how to counter Chaos Marines" threads that came is the Spiky Marines to watch out for one. And even there, they are confident in their chances to counter us... without changing anything in their lists.

 

While I'm happy they don't see us as a unbalanced like Necrons and GK, that means we are not defining a new power level. 40k players simply ignore us, as if we were the Sisters of Battle. This is what disturbs me.

 

That's 3 weekends now that we've been published. It wasn't yesterday.

[Vesper]

I just miss Andy Chambers and Pete Haines.