Dissapointments with the new codex.

[Boshea]

I think the thing that is getting to me the most is that we still need to compare against Space Wolves, and we still get outclassed in point efficiency. Just really sucks that Kelly wrote both so you kind of hoped we'd stop seeing Space Wolves just out-do CSM at being CSM, and we instead got the Gav book with a new paint job. We can hate on Ward all we want, but Kelly wrote the book we spent the most time getting compared to and using for count as.

[Prot]

When some good balanced codex is published, you can see several threads on the whole Bolter and Chainsword discussing about counter-tactics.

 

When a blattantly superior codex is published, the whole blogosphere shatters; Everyone jumps at every one else's neck crying, whining! Rabits multiply themselves slower than the "Help me against CSM" threads !

 

But for this codex, the only one "how to counter Chaos Marines" threads that came is the Spiky Marines to watch out for one. And even there, they are confident in their chances to counter us... without changing anything in their lists.

 

While I'm happy they don't see us as a unbalanced like Necrons and GK, that means we are not defining a new power level. 40k players simply ignore us, as if we were the Sisters of Battle. This is what disturbs me.

 

Actually I agree wholeheartedly with this. It's a VERY good indicator on a competitive level to see how the BnC reacts in other areas to the codex.

 

I think the thing that is getting to me the most is that we still need to compare against Space Wolves, and we still get outclassed in point efficiency. Just really sucks that Kelly wrote both so you kind of hoped we'd stop seeing Space Wolves just out-do CSM at being CSM, and we instead got the Gav book with a new paint job. We can hate on Ward all we want, but Kelly wrote the book we spent the most time getting compared to and using for count as.

 

I think we could compare the codex to Necrons, IG, Orks.... all are competitive. But I think the reason people keep comparing to Wolves is because they are quite similar... power armour, sorcs, a foundation in marine troops.

 

The attraction to that comparison makes sense to me. The Chaos codex is much newer, it is written for this version of the game. It probably won't be re-written for another 8+ years. These are valid thoughts that make the comparison valid imo.

 

The reason I brought up Wolves is because I played them quite a bit, so for me it is natural to compare a base CSM to a grey hunter, and scratch my head.

[Emperors Immortals]

I just miss Andy Chambers and Pete Haines.

 

 

Amen to that ;)

 

My disappointment comes from what I feel is a confused unit listing,like

 

- mutilators are redundant because we could have just rolled the old termies with newer CC options, giving a more logical fit for background and better models

- cant put vehicle upgrades on the fiends (esp. dirge on the mauler)

- the looong awaited and super fluffy options of DarkApostle and Warpsmith could probably been better as elite options and/or unit upgrades for other slots (DA for troops and WS for heavy or both in a lords retinue) as theyll probably never see game time now

- Spells seem underwhelming

- cult troops pretty UP (though perhaps were not doing it right yet)

- STILL no true assault vehicle options (for WE lists) or variant Raider (like hades mounted higher capacity version for example)

 

Its a pity too, because all the signs are there that GW want 6th to be firmly back in the fans hands, and allow fluff-heavy lists an equal chance as WAAC lists, and this codex falls just short. Ward i feel writes good codexes and terrible stories/background and I would have liked to see him work on this with Kelly (one of my former top 3 GW faces).

 

 

As a bonus, i fraking loooove the new options for CSM troops ;) :) :)

Also we dont have hellmarines shooting hellrounds from a hellgun and unlocked as troops by Helly VonHellalot the meanest dude in town.

[Azekai]

Also we dont have hellmarines shooting hellrounds from a hellgun and unlocked as troops by Helly VonHellalot the meanest dude in town.

That is a pro? I was really disappointed. ;)

[the jeske]

I was thinking about 1ksons and how to make them good . I think H-man had a good idea how to , but sadly the list wasnt ment for 3.5 ed. I am thinking about a magic heavy list , but not just one that casts spell . That would change sorc/asp sorc in to less reliable hvy weapons . I think about something like a separate table for a 1ksons army where force tokens could be used for different things . Want to give +1str to your 1ksons bolters? sure 1 force token . +1A or +1inv token again .

small asp sorc would be like warlocks 1 power [a special 1ksons primaris power] 1 token generated . want your taken to shot one weapon again/move d6" use 2 force tokens etc etc. everything would of course only work on MoT units .

Sorc would be 2 per 1 HQ slots , lords and DPs would be 0-1 , so you would either have a lord or a DP . I would give sorc the option to use other sorc or asp sorc as starting point of their spell for 1 extra force token used . DP wouldnt be able to do that . Sorc could do that on a asp sorc/sorc within 12" , ahriman could be 18".

It would be a fun army to play.

 

That is a pro? I was really disappointed.

have you checked the names of the new stuff we got in this dex ?

[Sception]

wishlisting time? Wishlisting time.

 

MoT: psycher. On vehicles psychic crew, on squads psyker coven. On psykers, +1 psyker level. non-vehicle models w/ MoT that suffer perils must take a T test or turn into a spawn.

 

Rubric: models with the Rubric special rule automatically pass psychic tests without rolling & have the eternal warrior rule. Comes on sons, can be purchased by tzeentch marked sorcerers for heavy add'l cost.

 

Thousand Sons: drop the invulnerable save, instead 2 wounds & eternal warrior (from rubric) on the automotons. Automotons do not have MoT and are not psykers themselves (they have no personalities & no potential for change left, Tzeentch doesn't care about them, just the sorcerers they serve). Only S&P if the sorcerer dies, otherwise relentless. Sorcerer is ML2 (1 base, + MoT), 1 wound. drop AP3 bolters, instead psy ammo can be activated as a warp charge 1 psychic buff to the user's unit, usable only by models that purchase that equipment (think of it like force weapons, a purchasable extra power).

 

Cost similar to now, maybe a bit less for the sons, bit more for the sorcerer. Discipline of Tzeentch would require separate re-write (primaris bolt of tzeentch, rollable shrouded, re-roll of reserves (friendly or enemy), WC2 teleport necron style? I don't know).

[meeper]

I sort of thought they were going to go the warlock enhancement route Jeske. The 1k sons seem like such a natural choice for it. Im glad im not the only one who thought it would be a good fit.

 

The rules are there to make tzeench a decent mark however.

 

I like the thought of giving 1k sons rerollable armor saves (not invul) of 1 like the DP of tzeench has. It would go a long way toward survivability against small arms fire without outright increasing their toughness or wounds.

 

Another painless change for the 1k sons sorcs would be to let them swap the tzeench power for a power from divination. No need to rework anything and doesnt rewrite an entire psy tree.

 

I would love to see an option for the lord where the mark of tzeench gives the chaos lord a lvl 1 psy mastery with the option to buy a 2nd one. The scrolls of magnus are ok, but its way too expensive for what it does.

[Sception]

Mark of Tzeentch really just should have been "+1 mastery level" or "ML 1 psyker / unit of psykers / psychic crew for ICs, squads, vehicles respectively. Now that there's set rules for anything to be a psyker, there's no reason to stick with the invlnerable save thing.

 

2 wounds & eternal warrior just makes a ton of sense for rubric marines.

 

Those are the main two changes I would make, noting that removing the inv. save from MoT would be used to open the door to better inv. saves available more generally (aura purchasable by unit champions, a 3++ save chaos artifact with maybe a few extra rules to make it fluffier, sigils maybe a touch cheaper, etc). Unfortunately, those are major changes, so.... Yeah.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

My biggest grip is the utter failiure that is the still born lore of Tzeentch, however it would have been nice if dreads could take havoks, or if we had some varients of the predator/land raider loyalists did not have, even if it had just been "A predator may up grade it's turret autocannon to any of the following: Twin linked lascannon, Hades autocannon, Plasma cannon, twin linked multi meltas, blast masters, twin linked balefire flamers ect" An option to forgoe sponsons and instead upgrade their side armour would have been nice as well, something similar on the options for the land raider as well.

[the jeske]

2 wounds & eternal warrior just makes a ton of sense for rubric marines.

yes , very true.

 

 

on the tank side , I wish they gave us a chaos shrine just like WFB chaos has . not one that works the same , but sort of chaos only fortification in fact all armies should have those . breeding/spawn points for guants and stuff like that

[Killax]

I am sad though, not even a month and the dissapointment/complain topic is allready the biggest one out there.

 

But everyone is right, there is/was so much more room for extra's and now they only added the minimals.

[FerociousBeast]

Sinks home the stark and unyielding reality that GW needs new blood in the design studio not subject to the whimsy of the Old Guard that have clearly lost their way.

If you think the current crop is the Old Guard, well, then I must be old indeed!

[Dallas Drake]

I just miss Andy Chambers and Pete Haines.

 

Andy Chambers was a dude.

 

Though we don't have it as bad as Nids, my friend (only know one guy who plays bugs) has actually shelved his army just this last weekend (he's just got to the end of his tether with the whole Nids not having assault grenades & charging into cover thing). Our group are actually in the middle of trying to create some new units for him as a compromise (Carnifex with 2 x Skyfire S7 AP4 Assault 2 guns & a slightly tougher/nastier Harpy with IWND for example) just to try & keep Nids as a viable build, right now they just suck so hard.

 

So it could be worse :)

 

Dallas

[Sception]

'moves through cover' and similar rules that reduce cover penalties to movement (beast, skilled rider) should have also negated the cover penalties for assault. In one move, the whole nid army is fixed, at least on the grenades front, and rules in that category could have been easily given to possessed & talons. Units with both assault grenades and moves through cover would still get to throw the grenades & slap them on vehicles, so it's not like models with both would be screwed over, either.

[Emperors Immortals]

'moves through cover' and similar rules that reduce cover penalties to movement (beast, skilled rider) should have also negated the cover penalties for assault. In one move, the whole nid army is fixed, at least on the grenades front, and rules in that category could have been easily given to possessed & talons. Units with both assault grenades and moves through cover would still get to throw the grenades & slap them on vehicles, so it's not like models with both would be screwed over, either.

 

 

QFT, add in jeske's idea of race-specific terrain and weve just furutre proofed 40k for 5 years. ;)

[Azekai]

'moves through cover' and similar rules that reduce cover penalties to movement (beast, skilled rider) should have also negated the cover penalties for assault. In one move, the whole nid army is fixed, at least on the grenades front, and rules in that category could have been easily given to possessed & talons. Units with both assault grenades and moves through cover would still get to throw the grenades & slap them on vehicles, so it's not like models with both would be screwed over, either.

 

 

QFT, add in jeske's idea of race-specific terrain and weve just furutre proofed 40k for 5 years. ;)

Now all we have to do is get Malisteen or the Jeske hired by GW! :P

[Dallas Drake]

'moves through cover' and similar rules that reduce cover penalties to movement (beast, skilled rider) should have also negated the cover penalties for assault. In one move, the whole nid army is fixed, at least on the grenades front, and rules in that category could have been easily given to possessed & talons. Units with both assault grenades and moves through cover would still get to throw the grenades & slap them on vehicles, so it's not like models with both would be screwed over, either.

 

 

QFT, add in jeske's idea of race-specific terrain and weve just furutre proofed 40k for 5 years. ;)

Now all we have to do is get Malisteen or the Jeske hired by GW! :P

 

Fat chance. That would be sensible on GWs part ;)

 

Fingers crossed (in unhopeful faith) that GW just realise all above & release it via White Dwarf. Sooner please too. I hate to keep banging on about it but reading Chambers/Kelly's 4th ed. Nid codex what exactly did GW pay Cruddace to do except balls up the book?

[Vilicate]

Nids have good builds. Grenades does not make or break an entire army. Besides, nids should be shooty competitively anyway, just like every other army.

 

It sucks when assault units don't have grenades, but it's not the worst thing ever - people still use wraiths and incubi.

[the jeske]

Now all we have to do is get Malisteen or the Jeske hired by GW!

I dont know how it is right now [didnt ask anyone lately] but GW is known for being late with paying for translation work etc. I wouldnt want to work for them .

Besides, nids should be shooty competitively anyway, just like every other army.

you know that would be like coming to the csm forum and saying "why do you care about zerkers being bad , csm should be shoty anyway " and then notice all WE players and the khorn sub forum . Ah and even the shoting units have an uphill time without 2k points . oddly enough this is also the barrier at which chaos gets a lot more fun to play.

[Vilicate]

Besides, nids should be shooty competitively anyway, just like every other army.

you know that would be like coming to the csm forum and saying "why do you care about zerkers being bad , csm should be shoty anyway " and then notice all WE players and the khorn sub forum . Ah and even the shoting units have an uphill time without 2k points . oddly enough this is also the barrier at which chaos gets a lot more fun to play.

 

I guess so. But if berserkers just suck in general, why pay points and take them if you're trying to make a competitive list in the first place? This is just a hypothetical, I think berserkers are okay in small doses. But hey, they've got grenades, am I right? :sweat:

 

I don't think any army should be all shooty or all assaulty anyway - variety is the spice of life. And makes for a strong list - you've got to be able to handle all comers.

 

Overall, I think that the chaos book has got a lot of potential for making both a shooting threat and an assault threat in the same army very viable. Just like regular marines, "tactical" chaos marines still decent in a pinch in the assault phase.

[the jeske]

But if berserkers just suck in general, why pay points and take them if you're trying to make a competitive list in the first place? This is just a hypothetical, I think berserkers are okay in small doses. But hey, they've got grenades, am I right?

because a WE army is made out of zerkers , just like a nid army is made out of nids . Technicly if someone wants a realy compatitive army he can ignore nids , but that doesnt help nid players one bit.

I dont understand the grandes part . with or without them nids would still wouldnt work as an assault army , because the edition is more shoty and a combination of both low saves and random charge will make this and any other hth army that doesnt have "and you always charge 12" , no viable.

 

nids cant mix a shoty army with hth army , because first of all both stuff doesnt fit in to one army under 2k points . second non meq doing melee without LoS blockers in form of tanks means dead high cost melee units . and third SW can outmelee nids and are a popular army .

Just like regular marines, "tactical" chaos marines still decent in a pinch in the assault phase.

yeah only they dont auto rally and dont have uber fearless in form of ATKNF . to paraphrase your why play melee nids . why play chaos , when you can get the same type of list with using SW with BA or SM ally . bolter marines , ATKNF , flyers to ally with , they have lords , they have DPS[TWC lords] they have better sorc. They can ally in bikes If they want to as troops or MM attack bikes for better anti av13-14 .they have more then okay havocks in the form of long fangs etc But again saying "play SW" doesnt help chaos players. specialy those that waited 5 years for a new dex.

[Razblood]

I just miss Andy Chambers and Pete Haines.

 

And I 110% agree with you!

[Rain]

What's funny is that apparently Fantasy is getting jugger riding Khorne knights as a WD unit and yet our brand new CSM codex lacks such a unit even though it would have been a complete no-brainer. Hell they could have even made a general demonic cavalry unit that has to buy a mark and gets the corresponding god's steeds. But no, that would have been too awesome, instead we get hellturkeys and whatever genetic disaster mutilators are supposed to be.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

With C:CSM not being the latest amazingness, a la C:GK or C:SW or C:IG, do people think that a little 'counts as' would be as good or better than the current Dex? At least for representing some of the builds of Chaos Marines....

 

I was thinking primarily of C:SW as the host, and C:BA as the guest.

 

Space Wolf bit:

 

Wolf Lord.

• On foot for a regular Chaos Lord.

• On a Thunderwolf, for whatever daemonic steed.

• On a Thunderwolf, to represent a winged Prince.

The various sagas can personalise the Lord.

 

Rune Priest. -> Sorcerer.

 

Wolf Priest. -> Dark Apostle.

 

Wolf Guard. -> Chosen.

• Terminators.

• Champions in squads.

 

Grey Hunters. -> midfield Chaos Marines.

 

Long Fangs. -> Havocs.

 

Thunder Wolf Cavalry. -> Daemonic cavalry. Probably Juggers or Steeds.

 

Fenrisian Wolves. -> Lesser daemons.

 

Blood Angel bit:

 

Reclusiarch. -> boss Dark Apostle!

 

Mephiston. -> Daemon Prince.

 

Jump pack heroes [sanguinor, etc.]. -> Raptor boss, or Tzeentch champion on disc.

 

Death Company. -> Berzerkers.

 

Sanguinary Priest + Tacticals. -> Plague Marines. or Mark of Nurgle.

 

Sternguard. -> Noise Marines. Rubric Marines.

 

Devastators. -> Havocs.

 

The only thing it wouldn't do well is the extra special Chaosy things, such as Obliterators and the Daemon engines, etc.

 

Thoughts?

 

EDIT: Just skimmed the jeske's post :P He already said it

[Killax]

I also think that Pre-heresy non FW book lists are best made with C:CSM, with the options you should be able to make something cool. Altough it will be more limited :(.