Dissapointments with the new codex.

[Baluc]

I think the first issue is chaos players cherry picking the best aspects of each other marine dex and then saying Chaos is a poor book because it doesn't have these awesome aspects. Long Fangs are available at a reduced cost to space wolves why? They provide the only infantry heavy weapons in the book. The rest is all on vehicals. They have counter attack great! But if my Long fangs are getting assaulted its either by fast assault dedicated units (see slaanesh bikes, genestealers and their ilk) or I've already lost the game in which point me getting 5 extra s4 attacks isn't going to swing or carry the day.

 

So lets not get into point for point discussions as its a waste of time, and precludes the books you know being not the same. Are Space wolves a better assault army? Personally I don't think so, and I'm slowly getting into CSM. If you want to talk about boring the Space Wolves book isn't any more flexible than the Chaos Book. I'd actually go so far as to say that the Space Wolves book is tactically the least flexable Marine book including Dark angels, its probably on par with Black Templars in that regard.

 

What we should be discussing or be disappointed with, is actual voids in our arsenal of tactical ability, things we have no ability of doing, or severally limited in scope. Not that we don't have the best aspects, or the exact same points cost of every other marine book.

[meeper]

Are Space wolves a better assault army? Personally I don't think so

 

Your base troop can take special ranged and CC weapons, have ubergrit by default and counter attack, and can take unit champs in terminator armor ATSKNF. Point for point, they are a far superior assault army.

 

If you want to talk about boring the Space Wolves book isn't any more flexible than the Chaos Book.

 

You have a point here, we have more flexibility in terms of what our troop base can be and blood claws are way overpriced and dont come with enough options to be useful. Yet our choices are limited in what is actually cost effective.

 

I just find it hilarious that a loyalist chapter has more "chaotic" troop structure and options than an army that holds nothing but abhorrence for the codex astartes.

[Vilicate]

I just find it hilarious that a loyalist chapter has more "chaotic" troop structure and options than an army that holds nothing but abhorrence for the codex astartes.

 

To be fair, if there's one loyalist chapter that abhors the codex almost as much chaos, it'd be them.

 

 

I don't know, Chaos has got a lot of options for re-rolls against Space Marines (which comprise the vast majority of armies), which is a rather powerful assault ability. Though, on the other hand, Prescience. So, yeah, there's that.

 

I'm of the opinion that chaos isn't in like the top three codices (GK, IG and SW) but they are decently powerful. I think I like that a lot better than when the book was at the top of the heap back in 3.5/4th. The amount of flak that I used to get for playing IW was way unjustified.

 

I'm hoping that this is similar to the reset of power that they've really managed to hold on to in fantasy when that edition changed last year. It's been really great for the game in general, because most every army book that's come out for that game has been a slam dunk in terms of power/fun. And balanced internally as well. I'm hopeful this signals a new era in balanced codex design.

[meeper]

My problem is that half of the codex isnt really that inventive, CSM have the same options as their vanilla SM counterparts where they should be closer to grey hunters or current chosen in weapon selections. and chosen, instead of chosen being the lone infiltrators or wolf guard esque unit composition that they were in 3.5 and 4.0 they have instead been degraded to veteran SM stats and weapon options. The dark apostle is spiky chappy for the most part and the same goes for the warpsmith. They left out about half of the gifts of chaos from the other 2 gods and half of the cult troops just arent worth taking outside of fluff reasons. Lots of potential to truly distinguish chaos at its base, but flawed for whatever fears of being overpowered.

 

As others have said, I dont dislike the book, but its difficult to declare it a "good" codex. Its adequate for what it does, but could have been so much more had they not presumably had a different author design the 2nd half of the army.

[Sanctimonius]

I just find it hilarious that a loyalist chapter has more "chaotic" troop structure and options than an army that holds nothing but abhorrence for the codex astartes.

 

:D I had been hoping that Chaos had something similar to Wolfguard or Lone Wolves, they seem very Chaosy in organisation to me. Lone champions wandering the battlefield in search of glory? Lone Wolves. Unit of the Lord's chosen split up to keep his troops in line? Wolf guard. Each with unorthodox gear choices which can make your army much more flexible and unique.

 

Perhaps it's supposed to be a reflection of the legion foundings but the CSM seem more organised on proto-Codex lines rather than any way they see fit for the purpose.

[Baluc]

My problem is that half of the codex isnt really that inventive, CSM have the same options as their vanilla SM counterparts where they should be closer to grey hunters or current chosen in weapon selections. and chosen, instead of chosen being the lone infiltrators or wolf guard esque unit composition that they were in 3.5 and 4.0 they have instead been degraded to veteran SM stats and weapon options. The dark apostle is spiky chappy for the most part and the same goes for the warpsmith. They left out about half of the gifts of chaos from the other 2 gods and half of the cult troops just arent worth taking outside of fluff reasons. Lots of potential to truly distinguish chaos at its base, but flawed for whatever fears of being overpowered.

 

As others have said, I dont dislike the book, but its difficult to declare it a "good" codex. Its adequate for what it does, but could have been so much more had they not presumably had a different author design the 2nd half of the army.

 

 

Explain how they are the same as a tactical squad?

 

Tac squad

1 special weapons and 1 heavy weapon @ 10 models

1 Plasma pistol

1 special close combat weapon

Ld9 srg

 

CSM

2x special weapons or 1x special weapon and 1 heavy weapon @ 10 models

1x special close combat weapon

1 plasma pistol

Marks

Hatred space marines

Icons

Ld9

up to 15 guys

 

At 16ppm a TAC squad has bp, bolter, ATSKNF, and combat tactics

 

At 13 ppm a CSM has bp, bolter

 

At 15ppm a CSM has grit

 

At 17 ppm a CSm has grit and goes first

 

At 18 ppm a CSM has grit, goes first and re-rolls to hit

 

You know how you get a better unit? By paying more points.

 

Unless I'm mistaken escorting models off the board is gone now no? ATSKNF is an advantage, however, CSM can have their own advantages over normal marines. T5 Marines? Feel no pain I5 Marines?

 

A Dark Apostal makes his unit fearless and gives them hatred... Pretty much like a normal chaplian. Although your chaplain can be I5, or S7 on the charge, and AoEs Ld10.

[meeper]

Explain how they are the same as a tactical squad?

 

 

My initial point was worded poorly

 

My problem is that half of the codex isnt really that inventive, CSM have the same options as their vanilla SM counterparts where they should be closer to grey hunters or current chosen in weapon selections.

 

What I meant to say was that the squad options have little synergy like grey hunters and tactical squads do. The marks and ranged weapon options provide for a good amount of variety for the csm squads. I was lamenting the fact that they couldnt chose cc weapon upgrades to further compliment the CC oriented marks like khorne and slannesh.

 

 

Unless I'm mistaken escorting models off the board is gone now no? ATSKNF is an advantage, however, CSM can have their own advantages over normal marines. T5 Marines? Feel no pain I5 Marines?

 

At a vastly increased cost per model. Also the plasma cannon allowed to tac squads is going to come into its own this edition. You can do just as much for fewer points in an SM squad.

 

A Dark Apostal makes his unit fearless and gives them hatred... Pretty much like a normal chaplian. Although your chaplain can be I5, or S7 on the charge, and AoEs Ld10.

 

and? He is far overshadowed by other HQ options, his combat ability is slightly better than a mace armed AC. The CL gives fearless as well, is a superior fighter, more options as well as unlocking troops with his marks.

[zyl-]

Why is everyone so hyped up on competitiveness and tiers?

 

 

If you're a tournie player, fair enough, but if the win means so much to you just pick a Tier 1 army and use that.

 

 

Most people i play with, play to have fun, and i think the new Chaos Codex is alot of fun. Its not all about min-maxing and wiping the floor with your opponent, its about interesting, fun choices and enjoying a game. The Chaos Codex has a lot of character. Dragon, aside.

 

It's not even about my personal win/loss record so much as it irks me that there is a blatant lack of balance from codex to codex. We play this as a hobby, but these people literally dedicate their lives to this work and they just suck at it. There is just no reason why a nerd like me who plays maybe one game a week should be able to pick up on things that the people who work on this for 40 hours a week every week don't see. I'm not saying I'm all that awesome either, but everywhere I've worked I've always at least known what my company makes. If the codexes are so unbalanced that we can put them into three tiers, the ball is being dropped in a big way.

[Baluc]

Double Post

[Baluc]

Double post

[Baluc]

I think your just sour CSM don't have the hands down most op marines in the game.

 

Lets talk about synergy then since that seems to be your primary concern.

 

10 CSM (250)

MofS

VotLW

power weapon

2xflamer

Rhino

 

This unit kills 4.54 MEQs in one round of combat, or 4 whole MEQ

And takes back 0.495 wounds, or no whole models.

 

That is not including the 2 flamers, and 8 bolt pistol shots before the assault.

 

15 Cultists (70)

 

330 points

 

This unit is better in assault than any other marine "troop" in the game. 27 I 5 attacks, and 4 ap3 with re-roll to hit in the first round of combat every turn. After that it can hunker down and bolter the enemy or let 70 points of cultist hold the objective, and move on to the next objective. In over watch it has 2D3 s4 Ap5 attacks, and 16 bolters, and then 21 I5 attacks. Flexability and synergy with the simple flamer. An Assault oriented unit, without a doubt.

 

Lets look at alternatives in SW

 

9 Grey hunters

meltagun

power ax

Wolf standard

WG

power weapon

Rhino

 

This unit, kills (assuming no wolf standard) 3.97 or 3 whole MEQ

And takes back 0.75, or 0 whole models

 

233 points

 

Lets look head to head

I'll run 3 scenerios

 

GH pass counter-attack

In Challenge - Champion kills does 1.5 wounds to , WG before his strikes

- CSM unit kills 3.34 or 3 whole models

 

GH attack back dealing 1.2375 wounds or 1 whole model

Power axe attacks 0.99 models or no whole models, but lets be generous, and say 1

 

Combat res

1 wound for challenge

3 wounds combat

1 for icon

 

GH

2 for combat

 

lose by 3 test on Ld5, hold and get cut down in the SQ turn.

 

Grey Hunters fail counter attack

0.82 wounds with normal attacks

0.66 wounds with power axe

 

Do 0 wounds

 

Lose by 5

 

Grey Hunters charge

Champion kills WG in challenge

Unit kills 2.2275 or 2 GH

 

GH do 1.485 or 1 wound

Axe does 0.99 again I'll be kind and say one kill

 

CSM

-3 wounds

-icon

=4

 

GH

-1

-1

=2

 

GH lose by 2

 

Lets not forget that this load out takes a troop and an elite slot. You also have 2 other WG to put in squads somewhere. If you want 10 man units in rhinos, you are losing the second special weapon. Or you can be on foot. You can put him in a long fang pack I suppose. But basically getting Ld9 and a sccw in one unit is beginning to dictate the rest of your army to you.

 

Goes simo with marines, only re-rolls ones once per game has additional Ap2 attacks. Only one special weapon. Gives 24 S4 attacks, 4ap3, 3ap2 attacks. So over all more attacks that ignore armour, or can kill terminators. However, overall this unit is seriously more vulnerable in combat than the CSM as they can't negate marine attacks back. Even a normal tac squad is going to kill a few grey hunters.

 

Space wolves also have no unit who can move up and hold objectives letting the more expensive Grey hunters get on with the killing. That is a huge disadvantage. SW have no real way of dictating the pace of the game after their intial assault. If a wolf player isn't deciding the combats he's going to lose and quickly. I can play a whole game with my CSM and not fight a single close combat if I don't want think I'll win.

 

With my CSM I can be really aggressive early game, clearing objectives, putting weaker but cheaper squads around my home objectives. And contesting or taking the enemies. Or by playing defensivly letting the enemy into the teeth of my guns, taking them appart with autocannon fire, and assaulting the weakened units with some of the best assault units in the game.

 

With my Wolves I can only go forward. They are the literal interpretation of the crusader rule. Don't get me wrong I love my wolves, and in the hands of a great player they are amazing because no other army lets your seize the initiative quite like them. But in 6th edtition there is a wargame outside the midfield, and SW struggle with it.

[zyl-]

That didn't make a lot of sense the first time. Same with post 2 and 3.

 

Points values are totally uneven, and they aren't even geared close to the same. Flamer vs flamer please.

[meeper]

im not sour at all about not having my 3.0 codex back im just sad that the codex showed potential with creative units like the drake and other demon engines only to fall flat in other areas.

 

Your entire unit analysis is unusual to say the least, grey hunters can be both offensive and defensive, the elite slot is take yes, but your judging it in a vacuum in comparison to the army. You may be losing an elite slot but you gain a bodyguard unit for your HQ and potentially termie equipped armored squad leaders that would slaughter any AC in close combat. Rhinos being a thing of the previous editions and foot slogging is actually preferred to giving away kill points in the form of rhinos.

 

Also, flamers? really?

 

but back to the conversation at hand. I feel like half of the codex is a series of missed connections, the ingredients for a great codex hamstring by arbitrary balance choices.

[Vilicate]

The only thing that I'm really bummed about in this book is only having one, very specific daemon weapon available for any model to use. That was pretty disappointed, especially since even the lackluster last book at least had five different ones available. If the sword had daemon weapon even that'd be pretty nice. Or just an AP2 daemon weapon that wasn't the blind axe. And was able to be taken by anyone.

 

But I digress.

 

Other than that, some units don't work as well as they could (like Mutilators, Possessed and 1ksons), but I'm not giving up hope on them. I'm going to try to make them work in my lists anyway. Except for Mutilators. They can die in a fire.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Sounds like you missed the boat on how badly Wolves can run a table, dude. I'm not going to break down your whole thread, but one point in particular in patently wrong:

 

 

Space wolves also have no unit who can move up and hold objectives letting the more expensive Grey hunters get on with the killing. That is a huge disadvantage. SW have no real way of dictating the pace of the game after their intial assault. If a wolf player isn't deciding the combats he's going to lose and quickly. I can play a whole game with my CSM and not fight a single close combat if I don't want think I'll win.

 

This paragraph is so much mularkey. Space Wolves don't need another unit to come up and relieve Grey Hunters on an objective; they have counter-attack which, when combined with ultragrit, overwatch, ATSKNF, and power armor, makes them exceptionally good at sitting on an objective, shooting anything that gets close, and holding that objective with no problems. Plasma and bolters have a 24" range, mind you, and most objectives sit on or near the mid-point of a table that is usually 48" wide. Ergo, they can still effect the battle out of the midfield just with shooting and will still get charging-numbers of attacks if assaulted.

 

As for the "no way of dictating the pace of the game" part, I have only once played a game against the current Wolf 'dex that did NOT feature drop podding Grey Hunters (but that one had two podding dreadnoughts). And no one pods Grey Hunters into the midfield; that's what the mechanized squads are for. They put them in the enemy backfield to disrupt the base of fire and dictate the location of the engagement (ie, in the enemy's half of the table).

 

The point is, Grey Hunters are the single best Troop unit in the game in my experience. With very little in the way of gearing, they can shoot well AND assault well, and they are equally at home running, riding, or podding onto the battlefield. I was expecting our base CSM squads to be their equal, at least, and that's before we start adding marks which should make them superior.

[Baluc]

That didn't make a lot of sense the first time. Same with post 2 and 3.

 

Points values are totally uneven, and they aren't even geared close to the same. Flamer vs flamer please.

 

 

Equal points values are a falacy, exasterbated by lazy online generalship. You pay the points to get the the right tool for the job. If you have some sort of experience with SW that would produce a more point effective and round unit go ahead. But double flamer, I5 assaulter units are extremely effective at clearing units in cover, everything from blob squads to tac squads.

[Azekai]

Not even sure why we are arguing this. SW are crazy good- their options are great, their cost is low, and their special abilities are solid. Grey Hunters are widely recognized as one of the most efficient units in the game. :o

[Agent Purple]

Even if CSM weren't as good, I would expect the points efficiency to be somewhat close.

 

10xCSM with 2 plasma (edit:& VOTLW) is 180 points

 

10x Tacticals with plasma and MM is 180 points...

 

10x Greys with 2 plasma is 160...

 

10x Strike marines is only 200...

 

10x Tyrant's legion marine cohort with 2 plasma is also only 180...

 

All the alternatives pack ATSKNF plus at least one other helpful special rule (combat tactics / combat squads / counter attack /warp quake etc...). ATSKNF is at least as good as fearless, and way better than fearless (IMO) when combined with combat tactics rule. 10 CSM without ATSKNF should not be close in cost to 10 loyalist SM with ATSKNF. Accordingly, 10 CSM with weapons loadout and Icon should clock in at slightly less or at least on par points with their loyalist alternatives.

 

CSM is also saddled with the crappy always accept / issue challenges rule.

 

If CSM got the same weapons discount that greys and loyalists do, and had scaling weapon options with squad size I think it would do a lot to even the odds.

 

CSM get absolutely nothing (unless they pay through the nose for it), and have absolutely no way of avoiding the morale disadvantage they come with without paying for an ridiculously expensive icon that can easily be precisioned out by an enemy character in 1-2 rounds of combat.

 

Even with VOTLW, CSM still aren't even as reliable as they were before with the more useful teleport homering re-roll morale icon (back when it couldn't be shot out it last edition). When you fail a morale check with CSM, it really, really sucks. Snap fire only on rally plus no extra movement means the unit is pretty much useless for a turn.

 

Chaos space marines army, for me at least, is supposed to focus on the chaos space marines. Its such a huge disappointment that they stack up so poorly to literally every other MEQ standard infantry (except templars and maybe dark angels). Chaos army with core of chaos space marines should at least play out fairly against space marine army with core of space marines, not having to rely on spawn or zombies or spammed elite/heavy choices to try and even the odds.

[zyl-]

Since you said pretty much what I said with your own words, I don't really understand how you don't understand. I'll try again.

 

Your csm squad is geared to be optimal for cover clearing.

Your sw squad is not.

 

apple is orange?

 

Also, I shouldn't have to say this, but equal points value can be as much of a fallacy as you want it to be becasue the points values are ALL UNEQUAL. The reason it is most definately a problem is that they are less for sw in all cases. I'm not sure why you think it's poor reasoning to deduce that paying more for less leaves one at a disadvantage, but I would most certainly like you to bid on all of my E-bay auctions.

[Baluc]

Not even sure why we are arguing this. SW are crazy good- their options are great, their cost is low, and their special abilities are solid. Grey Hunters are widely recognized as one of the most efficient units in the game. :P

 

 

That GH squad is Ld8. For Ld9 a SW slot is using an elite slot.

 

Efficiency is the correlaion between ability and cost. GH have an acceptable level of ability for their cost, When taking a full 10 man squad, they also have very little utility beyond the midfield. The SW book seems better because its almost 100% geared to what its good at the "midfield" fight. Once pushed outside that comfort zone it often struggles. It has straight forward choices, because you don't have any other direction to go in. However you have the unique ability even above and beyond codex space marines to make your army your and have it match your playstyle.

 

Is it perfect no, personally I wish hellbrutes could take marks, but I can understand the reluctance in coming up with new vehical only marks for tz and nurgle.

 

But let's also be clear, a better squad will cost more.

 

To zyl, what your missing is that SW don't actually have a ton of options, because they are many things they have to take. If Sw want Ld9 they are playing with only 2 elite slots. They must take AV weapons in their squad because really thats is the only non-vehical place to take them. My CSM army has 6 bikes with 2 meltaguns, if my HBs or Havocs or Preds can't deal with the enemy. Do me a favor write a SW list, 1850-2000 points, take all these amazing SW qualities, and I'll write you a CSM version that is better in every way, either more bodies, or more support or just better individual units. Each unit might even cost more, but a better unit should always cost more.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Sounds like folks should agree to disagree and move on.

[Agent Purple]

That elite choice you take can also get you a podding combi-weapon unit (anti vehicle), plus 2 models with cyclones (look more infantry based anti-vehicle) to get 4 extra missile shots in the 2 squads of your choice (ie: long fangs or foot slogging/podding GH). Boo hoo...

 

Lets also no forget that while SW may 'sacrifice' an elite slot, you also get 2 additional HQ slots, which is an advantage when you have some of the most efficient psykers in the game.

 

I also point out that you can take a character with saga of majesty (2 of the specials also have this ability - you can easily get 2 bubbles of this in an army) to help offset LD 8. Your marines also have ATSKNF so even if they do flop a morale check, unless they're right on table edge, they can reposition themselves easier. CSM might be LD10 (if they pay for it), but the checks they fail will hurt them way more than the checks you fail on LD8. LD8 with a re-roll from saga of majesty is slightly better than LD10 in terms of reliability.

[the jeske]

To zyl, what your missing is that SW don't actually have a ton of options, because they are many things they have to take. If Sw want Ld9 they are playing with only 2 elite slots

and what is so auto include in 6th ed that it has to be run by all sw armies to keep those elite slots open ?

GH cost with same gear . If they were with a WG , then the unit was either in a pod [so double taped the csm ] or it is slogging and the WG then is walking around in termi armor . the asp champ bounces off him then .

on the points being relative . that is hardly true . sure comparing one unit against another one most of the time doesnt give much[not the case here because the lists are identical in game play] . but when we view the army then the SW cost less . less points on SW means more points in other stuff .

 

No one cares about the number of A the long fangs have . they could have 3 each and it wouldnt matter . what does is that they have 5 special weapons and split fire and a possible +2sv WG leader with cyclon. But even without him split fire is enough of a free boon for LF .Ah and your also wrong on the dont have other sources of long range fire power . in 5th yes. but in 6th you can ally in BA or SM and get all the MM attack bikes ravens/talons you want .

[Baluc]

That elite choice you take can also get you a podding combi-weapon unit (anti vehicle), plus 2 models with cyclones (look more infantry based anti-vehicle) to get 4 extra missile shots in the 2 squads of your choice (ie: long fangs or foot slogging/podding GH). Boo hoo...

 

Lets also no forget that while SW may 'sacrifice' an elite slot, you also get 2 additional HQ slots, which is an advantage when you have some of the most efficient psykers in the game.

 

I also point out that you can take a character with saga of majesty (2 of the specials also have this ability - you can easily get 2 bubbles of this in an army) to help offset LD 8. Your marines also have ATSKNF so even if they do flop a morale check, unless they're right on table edge, they can reposition themselves easier. CSM might be LD10 (if they pay for it), but the checks they fail will hurt them way more than the checks you fail on LD8. LD8 with a re-roll from saga of majesty is slightly better than LD10 in terms of reliability.

 

Hold on here. Every army has the option of taking additional hqs at 2000 points.

 

Sagas are one per army, and only for morale, so no re-rolling counter attack. There are only a hand full of models who can get saga of majesty, Logan Grimnar, a Wolf Lord, or an venerable dread.

 

2 CML requires 10 WG 2 of which in Terminator armour.

 

ATSKNF isn't as a great rule, there is not getting around this. However if your losing to a unit that is better than you, you will continue to lose to it, you just won't get wiped out by the overrun.

 

There are times however where the unit being wiped out is better as it allows you to bring your guns to bear on the enemy unit. As much as losing a unit is terrible, losing a unit in your game turn is much worse.

 

Like I said write a list, show me SW can do all this, and you aren't just cherry picking the best aspects of the book.

[the jeske]

Hold on here. Every army has the option of taking additional hqs at 2000 points.

welcome to euro zone where most games are under 2k points and where one of the few armies that dont have problems with HQ is SW.

Sagas are one per army, and only for morale, so no re-rolling counter attack. There are only a hand full of models who can get saga of majesty, Logan Grimnar, a Wolf Lord, or an venerable dread.

and when was it that you guys wanted to build an army with a dude with more then one and had the points to do it. IF SW want they can have a chaos demon prince sure its i1 , but so is the DP if he ever charges in to cover.

 

 

2 CML requires 10 WG 2 of which in Terminator armour.

and 1 requires 5 . and 5 can fit in to most SW armies.

 

 

ATSKNF isn't as a great rule, there is not getting around this. However if your losing to a unit that is better than you, you will continue to lose to it, you just won't get wiped out by the overrun.

while tarp piting , killing some more dudes . yeah totaly bad . just losing one hth and getting chased down and ending up dead for same cost of unit , is totaly better.

 

Like I said write a list, show me SW can do all this, and you aren't just cherry picking the best aspects of the book.

0_0 so chaos dex is good , because chaos normal stuff is a bit better then a SW army made out of bad stuff from the SW dex. yeah I totaly see the balance between those two .

 

again an identicaly build army lord/RP 3 GH squads LF in support costs less then the csm army when armed the same way , with ATKNF , rune staff , choser , split fire on top of what chaos can have .