Dissapointments with the new codex.

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

I noticed something this morning. You can't run Abaddon with any marked unit. Ever.

 

Marks: A marked IC cannot join a squad with a different mark.

Abaddon has all four marks. Any marked squad he attempts to join will always have a different mark.

 

If I am wrong, please, PLEASE tell me and I'll shut right up, but as I read it, he can only join unmarked units. Sorry, Abaddon, back on the shelf; no Nurgle or Tzeentch terminators for you.

[Baluc]

Hold on here. Every army has the option of taking additional hqs at 2000 points.

welcome to euro zone where most games are under 2k points and where one of the few armies that dont have problems with HQ is SW.

Sagas are one per army, and only for morale, so no re-rolling counter attack. There are only a hand full of models who can get saga of majesty, Logan Grimnar, a Wolf Lord, or an venerable dread.

and when was it that you guys wanted to build an army with a dude with more then one and had the points to do it. IF SW want they can have a chaos demon prince sure its i1 , but so is the DP if he ever charges in to cover.

 

 

2 CML requires 10 WG 2 of which in Terminator armour.

and 1 requires 5 . and 5 can fit in to most SW armies.

 

 

ATSKNF isn't as a great rule, there is not getting around this. However if your losing to a unit that is better than you, you will continue to lose to it, you just won't get wiped out by the overrun.

while tarp piting , killing some more dudes . yeah totaly bad . just losing one hth and getting chased down and ending up dead for same cost of unit , is totaly better.

 

Like I said write a list, show me SW can do all this, and you aren't just cherry picking the best aspects of the book.

0_0 so chaos dex is good , because chaos normal stuff is a bit better then a SW army made out of bad stuff from the SW dex. yeah I totaly see the balance between those two .

 

again an identicaly build army lord/RP 3 GH squads LF in support costs less then the csm army when armed the same way , with ATKNF , rune staff , choser , split fire on top of what chaos can have .

 

 

You obviously don't play or own the book, you only get the second heavy weapon with 10 WG, saga of majesty is 6"

 

I asked you a direct question, here I'll seperate it from the body of the argument and underline.

 

Write the list?

[Azekai]

I noticed something this morning. You can't run Abaddon with any marked unit. Ever.

 

Marks: A marked IC cannot join a squad with a different mark.

Abaddon has all four marks. Any marked squad he attempts to join will always have a different mark.

 

If I am wrong, please, PLEASE tell me and I'll shut right up, but as I read it, he can only join unmarked units. Sorry, Abaddon, back on the shelf; no Nurgle or Tzeentch terminators for you.

Unfortunately, you are right. RAW means the Abbydabbadoo has to go with unmarked units only. More writing excellence by the masterful Phil Kelly.

[Baluc]

I noticed something this morning. You can't run Abaddon with any marked unit. Ever.

 

Marks: A marked IC cannot join a squad with a different mark.

Abaddon has all four marks. Any marked squad he attempts to join will always have a different mark.

 

If I am wrong, please, PLEASE tell me and I'll shut right up, but as I read it, he can only join unmarked units. Sorry, Abaddon, back on the shelf; no Nurgle or Tzeentch terminators for you.

Unfortunately, you are right. RAW means the Abbydabbadoo has to go with unmarked units only. More writing excellence by the masterful Phil Kelly.

 

I'm pretty certain you can join units with the same mark, and can't join units with a different mark. Does Abbadon have a mark to be different, or same?

[Agent Purple]

No one is going to write the list. You are just going to take the list and write a completely different CSM list and compare apples & oranges (like your flamer squad vs melta squad comparison). We'll wind up getting 2k of bike heavy chaos with zombies or something vs. 1500 of grey/long fang space wolves....

 

Regardless, here is a list that someone posted on the WS list forum that is long fang / grey hunter heavy: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=264264

 

So, please write a similar list and explain how it will outperform said list on the table.

 

Where did anyone say saga of majesty is more than 6", or that you can get 2 cylone in 5 WG?

 

It is totally possible to get 2 sagas of majesty since special character sagas don't count towards the limit (pg. 64 of SW dex). Both Logan on Njal are good choices for the rest of the army as well. No one said you get to re-roll counter attack either - last time I checked CSM don't even get counter attack unless they pay for it, and don't get to re-roll either.. comparison was strictly on a morale vs. morale basis I think LD8 with re-roll is ~92% pass rate while LD10 is like 91.5% or something, I'd have to do the math again.

 

10 WG gives you 3 pack leaders, 2 cyclones for your fangs, and a drop pod with 5 combi-melta shots for anti tank. 10 models total no?

 

A unit of 10 wg with 8 combis, 3 pw, and 2 cylone and pod works out to be 375 points. 2 the WG with cyclone put out equivlent firepower to a 4 man havoc squad (worth 135 points) (but they can move and shoot) and a chosen squad with 5 melta and rhino (175 points), and three aspiring champions with power weapons (worth ~38 points each for 114 points).

 

So WG fills elite & heavy role but only costs 1 elite, and is 375 points vs. Chaos' 424 point equivalent investment. So WG save you a slot on the FOC, give you more versatility (you could drop 8 combis and leave GH packs without a WG, or you could drop 5 combies & 2 cyclones etc...), and saves you 49 points? Totally a disadvantage...

 

Now WG characters that join other squads count as characters so thats 2 precision shot cylcones if you attach them to long fangs, or if you kept them in a WG unit, its 4 move and shoot missile launcher shots - both of which are better than 4 static, non-precision missile launcher shots.

 

5 drop-combi wolf guard are also probably more effective at their anti-tank role than 5 chosen with meltas in a rhino.

[Agent Purple]

I noticed something this morning. You can't run Abaddon with any marked unit. Ever.

 

Marks: A marked IC cannot join a squad with a different mark.

Abaddon has all four marks. Any marked squad he attempts to join will always have a different mark.

 

If I am wrong, please, PLEASE tell me and I'll shut right up, but as I read it, he can only join unmarked units. Sorry, Abaddon, back on the shelf; no Nurgle or Tzeentch terminators for you.

Unfortunately, you are right. RAW means the Abbydabbadoo has to go with unmarked units only. More writing excellence by the masterful Phil Kelly.

 

I'm pretty certain you can join units with the same mark, and can't join units with a different mark. Does Abbadon have a mark to be different, or same?

 

Abbadon has all the chaos marks, so unfortunately, he will always have a different mark than any other unit that has any of the chaos marks and therefore can't join it.

[Brother Amarel]

I think your just sour CSM don't have the hands down most op marines in the game.

 

Lets talk about synergy then since that seems to be your primary concern.

 

10 CSM (250)

MofS

VotLW

power weapon

2xflamer

Rhino

 

This unit kills 4.54 MEQs in one round of combat, or 4 whole MEQ

And takes back 0.495 wounds, or no whole models.

 

That is not including the 2 flamers, and 8 bolt pistol shots before the assault.

 

 

Lets look at alternatives in SW

 

9 Grey hunters

meltagun

power ax

Wolf standard

WG

power weapon

Rhino

 

This unit, kills (assuming no wolf standard) 3.97 or 3 whole MEQ

And takes back 0.75, or 0 whole models

 

233 points

Going back a bit, I just don't get this example at all; it's picking and choosing at its worst, imo.

 

Why not, more accurately, 10 x CSM with Bolter, BP & CCW, 2 Flamers and Vet Champ with PW (183) vs 10 x GH with Bolter, BP & CCW, 2 Flamers and hidden PW (165)?

 

+1 extra attack for the CSM with the disadvantage of needing to challenge, while the GH get -1 LD (vs the AC, not the general CSM), but ATSKNF and Counter-Attack, and a hidden PW that can't be challenged out.

 

Build from there: VotLW would add 10pts, as would a Wolf Standard. GH have more Dedicated Transport options and/or can add a Wolf Guard kitted however is needed (transport space accepted), CSM can get to a higher number of basic troops and can add Marks, etc.

 

Bad examples are self-defeating really.

[Baluc]

No one is going to write the list. You are just going to take the list and write a completely different CSM list and compare apples & oranges (like your flamer squad vs melta squad comparison). We'll wind up getting 2k of bike heavy chaos with zombies or something vs. 1500 of grey/long fang space wolves....

 

Regardless, here is a list that someone posted on the WS list forum that is long fang / grey hunter heavy: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=264264

 

So, please write a similar list and explain how it will outperform said list on the table.

 

Where did anyone say saga of majesty is more than 6", or that you can get 2 cylone in 5 WG?

 

It is totally possible to get 2 sagas of majesty since special character sagas don't count towards the limit (pg. 64 of SW dex). Both Logan on Njal are good choices for the rest of the army as well. No one said you get to re-roll counter attack either - last time I checked CSM don't even get counter attack unless they pay for it, and don't get to re-roll either.. comparison was strictly on a morale vs. morale basis I think LD8 with re-roll is ~92% pass rate while LD10 is like 91.5% or something, I'd have to do the math again.

 

10 WG gives you 3 pack leaders, 2 cyclones for your fangs, and a drop pod with 5 combi-melta shots for anti tank. 10 models total no?

 

A unit of 10 wg with 8 combis, 3 pw, and 2 cylone and pod works out to be 375 points. 2 the WG with cyclone put out equivlent firepower to a 4 man havoc squad (worth 135 points) (but they can move and shoot) and a chosen squad with 5 melta and rhino (175 points), and three aspiring champions with power weapons (worth ~38 points each for 114 points).

 

So WG fills elite & heavy role but only costs 1 elite, and is 375 points vs. Chaos' 424 point equivalent investment. So WG save you a slot on the FOC, give you more versatility (you could drop 8 combis and leave GH packs without a WG, or you could drop 5 combies & 2 cyclones etc...), and saves you 49 points? Totally a disadvantage...

 

Now WG characters that join other squads count as characters so thats 2 precision shot cylcones if you attach them to long fangs, or if you kept them in a WG unit, its 4 move and shoot missile launcher shots - both of which are better than 4 static, non-precision missile launcher shots.

 

5 drop-combi wolf guard are also probably more effective at their anti-tank role than 5 chosen with meltas in a rhino.

 

It wasn't meant to be an excercise in comparitive strength it was meant to show that SW despite having "cheaper" troops can't get all these things people are complaing CSM don't have all at the same time. It was also meant to get people looking at the armies the book can create and not getting pissy about some other book having a cheaper unit. To get people to look at the role each unit futfils in their army and see if there is something that fills the role better, through being more specialized, or additional upgrades.

 

This obsession by internet optimizers who insist that cheaper is better. Being better is best. Doing the job all the time vrs most of the time. Doing it cheaper is an advantage obviously but only if a) the difference in investment gets you tangible rewards elsewhere or ;) the difference is so small that paying any extra is pointless.

 

The unit example was just that, you can chop or change the unit as you feel. But what I did was compare a unit you are likely to see in a SW army to a unit, I've used to futfill a similar role in my CSM army. It showed the difference between a 75% hit rate against MEQ and a 50% hit rate, it showed going first vrs going at the same time. It proved paying more points for a better unit gives better results.

 

GH are a good deal, I'm not disputing this, that isn't what this discussion is about. The point is instead of trying struggling with some bare bones squad so you can go online and complain about the cost of grey hunters when for 15-20 points per unit you can have a better squad.

 

The CSM book doesn't lack for options, flexability or power. It has all these things. If you prefer the playstyle of Space wolves, play space wolves and be done with it. There isn't any drop pods, so I can't play my CSM the exact same way I play my SW. However lets step back and look at this from GW point of view for a moment. Lets loook at the whole product, from the plastic crack all the way to resin kits from forgeworld. They have provided CSM with drop pods.

[Azekai]

GH are a good deal, I'm not disputing this, that isn't what this discussion is about. The point is instead of trying struggling with some bare bones squad so you can go online and complain about the cost of grey hunters when for 15-20 points per unit you can have a better squad.

 

But you are paying more points for things that don't really work. Icons are garbage thanks to barrage sniping, precision shooting, and focus fire.

GHs will never, ever be destroyed from a botched morale roll in CC. Their lower LD value doesn't matter, since they get to ignore the worst effects of failed morale saves courtesy of ATSKNF. Doesn't have anything to do with tooling up, or upgrading to fit a role. GHs are simply slightly better, in every meaningful way, than CSMs, and they are cheaper.

[Baluc]

GH are a good deal, I'm not disputing this, that isn't what this discussion is about. The point is instead of trying struggling with some bare bones squad so you can go online and complain about the cost of grey hunters when for 15-20 points per unit you can have a better squad.

 

But you are paying more points for things that don't really work. Icons are garbage thanks to barrage sniping, precision shooting, and focus fire.

GHs will never, ever be destroyed from a botched morale roll in CC. Their lower LD value doesn't matter, since they get to ignore the worst effects of failed morale saves courtesy of ATSKNF. Doesn't have anything to do with tooling up, or upgrading to fit a role. GHs are simply slightly better, in every meaningful way, than CSMs, and they are cheaper.

 

Killing the enemy isn't meaningful? Marks aren't meaningful? Give your Champion a plasma pistol and precision shot out his "Hidden" special weapon.

 

GH have to deal with the same issues with Wolf Standards, special weapons, etc.

 

Those are universal things every army has to deal with.

 

Loyalist marines have ATSKNF get over it, its been that way for 20 years.

[minigun762]

Let's call it good on the CSM vs GH debate. I think everything that needs to be said has been (and more).

[Azekai]

I am thankful that the new chaos book has a lot of people interested in chaos, but I think that will wear off shortly. As people play games they will swiftly realize they are playing the bad guys, whose main purpose is to twirl their mustaches and then get shot by the good guys.

[zyl-]

The codexes might well be balanced at the 2000+ level (and i doubt it), but not everyone here is talking about that high of a points value. For one squad to be better than another unfortunately means than in a low points game one army is better than another. At 1250 or so points, I feel like I've not even fielded enough troops in a Typhus army. Sure around 2000 it wouldn't be a problem, but I can't decide what my league wants to play or what a tournament value (1500) will be. Jeske and I are both having the same problem because we are facing off against SW and GK in small games where they run the table unless there is a noticable IQ difference between one player and the other. There are always "what ifs" to be had, but making one unit good means another unit is lacking or just not present, and once the dice start rolling math is the best guess we have. Killing 4 people out of a squad with weapon virus and causing a failed morale check on an overwatch is hilarious, but not to be counted on.

 

If we had a more reliable way to field winning low value armies, it would be far preferable to a balance at 2000+. At least to me it would be.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I am thankful that the new chaos book has a lot of people interested in chaos, but I think that will wear off shortly. As people play games they will swiftly realize they are playing the bad guys, whose main purpose is to twirl their mustaches and then get shot by the good guys.

 

No, no, the mustache twirling enemies are the Necrons. Chaos Marines are the nameless faceless hordes that the good guys get to shoot down in a first person shooter.

 

Perhaps that's the issue I have with 40k Chaos. Fantasy Chaos you get, they're a bunch of Northern barbarians, raised in harsh conditions, fighting for honour and glory in the eyes of their gods, Conan with a Chaos bent. 40k Chaos?, what's their motivation? To be bad for the sake of being bad?

 

40k Chaos could be interesting, they could draw more on Dante's images of fallen angels, rebelling against the Imperium that they see as unjust. Khorne could be seen as the god of the noble warrior fighting against oppression (like Angron) Nurgle the god of those who endure despite the odds, Slaanesh the god of those who seek perfection in all they do, Tzeentch the god of those who seek to change what is. Ultimately wrong, of course, but fighting courageously for a cause they believe in.

 

Oh, and all Chaos Marines should be fearless.

[Megalodon]

Oh, and all Chaos Marines should be fearless.

Or at the very least they should be Stubborn, the under utilized moral USR.

[Baluc]

Oh, and all Chaos Marines should be fearless.

Or at the very least they should be Stubborn, the under utilized moral USR.

 

 

Stubborn is great until you realize the unit you lost to that is making you take the check will still beat you next turn regardless of holding. If you opponent has beat you in the movement phase and got a superiour combat unit into you unit, its better for the unit to die outright so you can atleast shoot that unit after.

[Minsc]

I just realized that a big issue for me with the new codex is that CSM still do shooting very -very- badly. Tyranids are probably the only codex that does long-range shooting worse than us.

Reliable long range firepower is something we are in short supply of. Outside of the HS-department we only have the Helbrute (and to some extent, the Heldrake), and they are both decent shooters at best.

In the current Edition which is very shooting based, this is a huge flaw in our codex.

Yes, I realize that CSM are ment to be like "Spiky SM with less shooting and more focussed on assault", and it's true that we are better at fighting than our loyalist brothers, but while we are slightly better than them at fighting, they are far better than us at shooting.

 

Ponder the following 2000 pts SM-list.

There is no way that we can be as shooty as this, even if we try, and without tailoring our list to specificly beat it, how would your normal allcommers CSM-list cope with the following?

 

Librarian

5x Tacticals in Razorback /w TL-Lascannon (or Las/TL-Plas, whatever your preference is.)

5x Tacticals in Razorback /w TL-Lascannon (or Las/TL-Plas, whatever your preference is.)

5x Tacticals in Razorback /w TL-Lascannon (or Las/TL-Plas, whatever your preference is.)

 

Dreadnaught with 2x Twinlinked Autocannons.

Dreadnaught with 2x Twinlinked Autocannons.

 

2x Landspeeder Typhoons

2x Landspeeder Typhoons

2x Landdspeeders with dual Multimeltas.

 

5x Devastators /w 2x Missile Launchers

5x Devastators /w 2x Missile Launchers

5x Devastators /w 2x Missile Launchers

5x Devastators /w 2x Missile Launchers

Vindicator

 

Aegis Defenseline /w Quadcannon.

 

Roughly 2000 pts, give or take.

I saw a list very similar like this one in action only a week ago. First against Eldar, who where pretty much wiped at the end of turn 4, and later I had the "pleasure" of being allied with it in a 5000pts vs 5000pts game against SoB/GK.

Needless to say, we won that game - big.

[Azekai]

There is no way that we can be as shooty as this, even if we try, and without tailoring our list to specificly beat it, how would your normal allcommers CSM-list cope with the following?

How do we deal with this? Considering we can't out-shoot them, we have to go for the assault. We take a lot of fire going in, but if we are able to get the charge off we probably beat them . . . then they opt to fall back and shoot us some more. Rinse-repeat.

 

Honestly, if we didn't have daemon allies (thank the Dark Gods for our warp friends), chaos would be in a sorry state.

[Megalodon]

Oh, and all Chaos Marines should be fearless.

Or at the very least they should be Stubborn, the under utilized moral USR.

 

 

Stubborn is great until you realize the unit you lost to that is making you take the check will still beat you next turn regardless of holding. If you opponent has beat you in the movement phase and got a superiour combat unit into you unit, its better for the unit to die outright so you can atleast shoot that unit after.

I'd rather inflict some extra damage on the enemy unit the next turn over the possibility of getting swept.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Librarian

5x Tacticals in Razorback /w TL-Lascannon (or Las/TL-Plas, whatever your preference is.)

5x Tacticals in Razorback /w TL-Lascannon (or Las/TL-Plas, whatever your preference is.)

5x Tacticals in Razorback /w TL-Lascannon (or Las/TL-Plas, whatever your preference is.)

 

Dreadnaught with 2x Twinlinked Autocannons.

Dreadnaught with 2x Twinlinked Autocannons.

 

2x Landspeeder Typhoons

2x Landspeeder Typhoons

2x Landdspeeders with dual Multimeltas.

 

5x Devastators /w 2x Missile Launchers

5x Devastators /w 2x Missile Launchers

5x Devastators /w 2x Missile Launchers

5x Devastators /w 2x Missile Launchers

Vindicator

 

Aegis Defenseline /w Quadcannon.

 

If I recall correctly, double force organization charts is just what it says on the box, so before you can take those 5 heavy support slots you first have to take two HQs and four troops choices. Illegal army is illegal.

 

If I were building shooty Marines I'd be all about the dreadnoughts. Rifleman dreads are still pretty good, even with the "glance to death" rules. Arguably, since they won't be stunlocked, they might even be better at their dedicated role.

 

Something like.

HQ 1, Librarian

HQ 2, Librarian

Troops 1a, five Marines in a lasplas Razorback

Troops 1b, five Marines in a lasplas Razorback

Troops 2a, five Marines in a lasplas Razorback

Troops 2b, five Marines in a lasplas Razorback

Elites 1a, Rifleman

Elites 1b, Rifleman

Elites 1c, Rifleman

Elites 2a, Rifleman

Fast 1a, multi-melta Land Speeder

Fast 1b, multi-melta Land Speeder

Fast 1c, Land Speeder Typhoon

Fast 2a, Land Speeder Typhoon

Heavy 1a, Vindicator

Heavy 1b, Vindicator

Fortification, Aegis Defence Line with quadgun.

 

To match that with Chaos?

HQ 1a Sorcerer

HQ 2a Sorcerer

Troops 1a, 5 Chaos Marines, plasma gun, Rhino with havoc launcher

Troops 1b, 5 Chaos Marines, plasma gun, Rhino with havoc launcher

Troops 2a, 5 Chaos Marines, plasma gun, Rhino with havoc launcher

Troops 2b, 5 Chaos Marines, plasma gun

Elite 1a, Helbrute, twin-linked lascannon, missile launcher

Elite 1b, Helbrute, twin-linked lascannon, missile launcher

Elite 1c, Helbrute, twin-linked lascannon, missile launcher

Elite 2a, Helbrute, twin-linked lascannon, missile launcher

Elite 2b, Helbrute, twin-linked lascannon, missile launcher

Fast 1a, 3 bikes, 2 meltaguns

Fast 1b, 3 bikes, 2 meltaguns

Heavy 1a, 5 Havocs, 4 autocannon

Heavy 1b, 5 Havocs, 4 autocannon

Heavy 2a, Vindicator

Heavy 2b, Vindicator

Fortification: Aegis Defense Line with quadgun.

 

Similar principle, but not quite the same. Basically spamming the cheapest options to achieve the same effect.

[Minsc]

If I recall correctly, double force organization charts is just what it says on the box, so before you can take those 5 heavy support slots you first have to take two HQs and four troops choices. Illegal army is illegal.

 

It's one FoC, so perfectly legal.

I didn't think I had to spell it out that the 4x5 Devastators with ML's are actually 2x10 split into 4x5 due to combat tactics. :tu:

[Freman Bloodglaive]

If I recall correctly, double force organization charts is just what it says on the box, so before you can take those 5 heavy support slots you first have to take two HQs and four troops choices. Illegal army is illegal.

 

It's one FoC, so perfectly legal.

I didn't think I had to spell it out that the 4x5 Devastators with ML's are actually 2x10 split into 4x5 due to combat tactics. :tu:

 

Ah, sorry. My bad.

 

Yes, combat squads is a very useful ability in certain squads, though generally playing bikers I don't use it.

 

That said, I've never used a 10 man devastator squad.

[Sception]

The problem with going for the assault is that we're not all that great at it. We've got one really good unit for assaults - bikes, and even that's not scoring. The rest of our options either don't have the speed to get into assault, or don't have the tools to actually wreck things while they're there, or suffer from relatively poor morale - which punishes assault units far more than shooting units. We're forced into challenges (and being forced to issue them is far worse than being forced to accept them, as the enemy gets to see what character we pick before choosing which of their own will answer, something that just kills the Murder Sword even if you do catch the target's unit in melee somehow), but our characters are not especially notable duelists - a weapon skill bump and hatred being nowhere near as important as quality armor and invulnerable saves, AP2 at init (which we get 1/army on our ICs, and even then it's khorn restricted and sacrifices our WS bump), eternal warrior, and so on. There is no CSM answer in challenges to mindshackles or 2++ archons or the like.

 

We are at best a fair to middling assault army, despite that being our supposed specialty. I'm certainly not complaining that we have weaknesses, but it sure would have been keen had we actually been strong at our strengths.

 

I am thankful that the new chaos book has a lot of people interested in chaos, but I think that will wear off shortly. As people play games they will swiftly realize they are playing the bad guys, whose main purpose is to twirl their mustaches and then get shot by the good guys.

I wish! Under normal circumstances the complaints over a subpar army would last as long as it took for people to realize the truth of the matter, after which the players who cared about competitiveness would leave, and the rest would eventually come to accept the situation and continue playing anyway, looking to make the most of a bad situation. There'd be no more need for arguments or complaints at that time because everyone would know the deal. But we're in the starter box now, so on the one hand that's great, we'll have new chaos blood at a consistent pace for the entire 6th edition. But on the other hand, every week there will be new players discovering for the first time how their CSM dex stands up in power and creativity to Ward's Dark Angels, coming to complain to the boards and start the whole argument all over. And there will always be players just entering that stage of denial, looking to pick fights to defend the honor of their newly chosen faction.

 

And this is on top of being chaos. Chaos players are notorious for being able to hold a grudge. There were threads dozens of pages long complaining about the 4th ed CSM book on the front page of warseer's 40k general discussion from that books release right up until this books release.

 

No, the arguing and whining and fighting over this book will never, ever end.

 

 

There is hope, though. A couple months back we had a daemons update, with new rules and models in White Dwarf. This month we have a similar update for Chaos Warriors. Last year, the Vampire Counts Terrorgheist was introduced not alongside its new book, but several months before in White Dwarf. Are these just arbitrary previews/public playtests for their new codeces, or is this just a new thing for White Dwarf, introducing new models and rules again? We're not going to get another CSM book this edition. But it's possible that a couple years down the line we might see a white dwarf update with new rules to accompany a second or third wave. Rumor is they're working on new cult plastics, perfect time to revise the lackluster sons, children, & 'zerkers. Fantasy just got juggerknights, wouldn't those be cool in 40k? In 3rd edition, White Dwarf introduced us to cult terminators. Could the same happen in the latter days of 6e?

 

 

It's a dim, wildly optimistic, slim chance kind of hope, but hey, it is what it is.

 

 

In the mean time, we've got what we've got. A half-hearted sprucing up of the Gav Dex, with a few new bells and whistles. I'm happy for the fresh coat of paint at least. At least there's some list building wiggle room now. I can live with that, but it will be some time before I write an army list without letting out a whistful sigh at the thought of what might have been.

[Azekai]

Malisteen, you are making me sad- you are saying that the best we have to look forward to is the Sisters of Battle treatment? :P

 

As far as the mustache-twirling goes, I honestly think that is why we are so weak when compared to the top codices. We are made to suffer, it's our lot in life.

[Rain]

GW is just trying to get players reflect their chosen factions. So Chaos players get to spend interminable years in bitter resentment and jealousy, spitting spite and venom at their Imperial cousins as well as each other while lamenting long passed glories.