pingo Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 * Dark Apostles: The option of taking Veterans of the Long War which gives him Hatred(Space Marines) what he already has... Since he has Zealot which gives Hatred(Everything)? Why even bother? It's nothing more than a useless filler of space... It also gives him +1 Ld, right? So that's a +1 which may come in handy if he or his unit suffered any negative modifiers to Ld. Kind of a small benefit though I admit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darknightdrako Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 I'm betting second wave tho, drop pods (more for fuff, it just does not make sense) Possessed worth taking. Keep in mind, I'm very happy with what we have. I'm not a hardcore tourney player. Heck I can barely get in a game and I don't mind losing. I want my games close and epic. Yes I agree. All the units in the codex have model representation. I expect and hope a White Dwarf release with new chaos units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 * Dark Apostles: The option of taking Veterans of the Long War which gives him Hatred(Space Marines) what he already has... Since he has Zealot which gives Hatred(Everything)? Why even bother? It's nothing more than a useless filler of space... It also gives him +1 Ld, right? So that's a +1 which may come in handy if he or his unit suffered any negative modifiers to Ld. Kind of a small benefit though I admit. He's Fearless anyhow thanks to Zealot. I guess there's the absolute minimal benefit possible since friendly units within 6" of him has to use his Leadership because of Demagogue. But the odds of him getting negative modifiers to Ld and there being a unit within 6" of him that he's not part of and thus not making Fearless and at the same time would find themselves affected negatively by having to use his Ld are so small I find it absurd. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberame Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 * Dark Apostles: The option of taking Veterans of the Long War which gives him Hatred(Space Marines) what he already has... Since he has Zealot which gives Hatred(Everything)? Why even bother? It's nothing more than a useless filler of space... It also gives him +1 Ld, right? So that's a +1 which may come in handy if he or his unit suffered any negative modifiers to Ld. Kind of a small benefit though I admit. He's Fearless anyhow thanks to Zealot. I guess there's the absolute minimal benefit possible since friendly units within 6" of him has to use his Leadership because of Demagogue. But the odds of him getting negative modifiers to Ld and there being a unit within 6" of him that he's not part of and thus not making Fearless and at the same time would find themselves affected negatively by having to use his Ld are so small I find it absurd. TDA just wanted to point out that he is base leadership 10... and VOTLW won't make him Ld11... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 The +1LD on the Apostle might come in handy when an eldar psyker tries to fry his brain with Mindwar or whatever this is called. The fact that Rage is so circumstancial for Zerkers, the whole rule should have beeb "+1 a on the profil, and when assaultong it gets +2a" The fact that once again we end up with the same old Land raider, no additional weapons layoutx with loyalist having like 9 or so variantz and us just one... The fact that outside when taking it ona lord a jugger will stll stay unseen, who in his right mind would send a lore on his own ? They could just give the bikers or chosen the options to get mounts. The complete lack of options once again for zerkers,i mean not even a " two models can exchange thei weapons for x,y,z ", just once again plasma pistols. No alternatives to transports ouside the regular rhinos and LR, it would'nt have bothered me to have an open-topped rhino, who costs the same points asa regular onex but with opentopped rules. The riduculouds prices of some of the units, defilers and DP's comes firsts. But yeah appart from that he dex is a better step towards what we need of a dex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 I'm a Thousand son player, nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasmaspam Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 in no particular order... no cult terminators, or indeed chosen Chosen losing infiltrate loss of Chaos Undivided as a teleport beacon no real flavour for Night Lords no real flavour for Alpha Legion no real flavour for Iron Warriors minimal effort into 1kSons no Drop Pod the Helldrake model - all talk of man/machine/daemon fusion, but no hint where the man ever was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 The Dragon, The Gods DAMNED Dragon. :D A flying Daemon Engine, sure. Only - what is wrong with the Helltalon? Oh wait, FW did that one.. So, as a designer you are tasked with making a new and unique flier for Chaos? and you go for a frigging DRAGON? Get out of my 40K! They dropped the ball on that one, hard. My 2 Kraks Edit: Mmmm just thought of something. What about a corrupted/daemonic eagle or similar bird of prey instead? It would build on something iconic already present in the game (the Imperial Eagle's twisted imagery) I would have accepted that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 General lack of Fearless, really. But it's so much better than the last one that I'm pretty much super happy :D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 The Dragon, The Gods DAMNED Dragon. :D A flying Daemon Engine, sure. Only - what is wrong with the Helltalon? Oh wait, FW did that one.. So, as a designer you are tasked with making a new and unique flier for Chaos? and you go for a frigging DRAGON? Get out of my 40K! They dropped the ball on that one, hard. My 2 Kraks Edit: Mmmm just thought of something. What about a corrupted/daemonic eagle or similar bird of prey instead? It would build on something iconic already present in the game (the Imperial Eagle's twisted imagery) I would have accepted that. Apart from the raptors and warpsmith, the Drake is my favorite model. I thought it amazingly fluffy. The fuse of beast and machine. Hell talon looks awesome of course, but the Drake screams Warp mended with the machine, to create a metallic daemon beast out of mankinds legends. It would certainly create terror when it drops from the sky with a rusty roar of souls entwined in metal, given beastly form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 General lack of Fearless, really. But it's so much better than the last one that I'm pretty much super happy :D. Really? With the lord granting fearless + native fearless on all the cult choices I was pretty happy about the level of fearlessness in the new book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feste Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 The Dragon, The Gods DAMNED Dragon. :D A flying Daemon Engine, sure. Only - what is wrong with the Helltalon? Oh wait, FW did that one.. So, as a designer you are tasked with making a new and unique flier for Chaos? and you go for a frigging DRAGON? Get out of my 40K! They dropped the ball on that one, hard. My 2 Kraks Edit: Mmmm just thought of something. What about a corrupted/daemonic eagle or similar bird of prey instead? It would build on something iconic already present in the game (the Imperial Eagle's twisted imagery) I would have accepted that. Apart from the raptors and warpsmith, the Drake is my favorite model. I thought it amazingly fluffy. The fuse of beast and machine. Hell talon looks awesome of course, but the Drake screams Warp mended with the machine, to create a metallic daemon beast out of mankinds legends. It would certainly create terror when it drops from the sky with a rusty roar of souls entwined in metal, given beastly form. Mostly I agree, I like it. I'd be tempted to convert it a little, but nothing huge. Nihm: Remove the front legs, change the head to give it a beak and you're pretty close. Not sure how much work would be involved but I reckon it's possible. The wings follow that stylised shape of the Aquila Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerrai Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Noise should be able to have both extra CC and sonics. I hope this gets FAQed to be honest. This is just sad, descendant from Emperors Children, the finest marines in the universe.. and now they cant bring a sword and a noise gun.. bah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 I'm with Nihm here, the dragon isnt good conceptually, and the rules do not reflect the hype at all. It isn't much of a flyer killer. Besides the heldrake, I'd have liked a way to take fear as an upgrade, as well as infiltrate, stealth, etc. Especially on chosen. I just can't get over the feeling that the writers hands were tied as much as Thorpe's were when it was written. Albeit in a completely differing way. I'll use the codex, but I don't have to like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImperialGuardian Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 This is the worst codex I have ever read... and I am a space marine player. I bought it today for my brother (he is sleeping in and yet to wake up)... and I feel so bad already I am not going to make him pay me for it... I have agreed with pretty much everyone's complaints and the underlying theme is that this is the laziest, most unchecked, and lackluster codex ever delivered. Not giving Daemon princes the eternal warrior rule is inexcusable, but what is worse is they are probably stuck with the result, because a change to the Daemon special rule to give EW would make obliterators and mutilators a lot more powerful (which they need imo). But lets get to some specifics... the biggest grievance have is that the point values within the rule book are not reasonably self consistent. The biggest example of this is Khorne berserkers. A normal marine with a mark of khorne costs 4 points less than a khorne berserker. That means 5 basic marines with marks of khorne are the same prices as 4 khorne berserkers. What is the benefit of being a berserker? you simply get furious charge and +1 ws. But wait... the normal marines can get furious charge too if they pay ~2 points per model in a normal sized unit... so in reality you are paying 2 points for +1 ws to use a berserker. 2 points might not seem like much, but we are talking about an elite unit here. A troops unit SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO BE TURNED INTO AN ELITE UNIT EQUIVALENT... it proves your elite unit is broken. Sure you can take Berserkers as troops if you have a khorne lord, but having a khorne lord is a constraint that should lead to a benefit. It should not lead to an interchangeable unit. To be honest, I would rather have the assault weapon variety of the troops unit than the Khorne berserkers so I would go as far as to say the troop version of khorne berserkers w/ meltas and flamers is significantly better than the elite option. I also LOL at the fact that space marines are still better than chaos in elite close combat. All they had to do was make mutilators have eternal warrior and they could go toe to toe with hammernators. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingo Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 I'll use the codex, but I don't have to like it. Sorry, don't want to sound like I'm having a go, but wouldn't you be better off doing counts-as using another codex then? :S I mean, the point all this is to have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 This is the worst codex I have ever read... and I am a space marine player. I bought it today for my brother (he is sleeping in and yet to wake up)... and I feel so bad already I am not going to make him pay me for it... I have agreed with pretty much everyone's complaints and the underlying theme is that this is the laziest, most unchecked, and lackluster codex ever delivered. Not giving Daemon princes the eternal warrior rule is inexcusable, but what is worse is they are probably stuck with the result, because a change to the Daemon special rule to give EW would make obliterators and mutilators a lot more powerful (which they need imo). But lets get to some specifics... the biggest grievance have is that the point values within the rule book are not reasonably self consistent. The biggest example of this is Khorne berserkers. A normal marine with a mark of khorne costs 4 points less than a khorne berserker. That means 5 basic marines with marks of khorne are the same prices as 4 khorne berserkers. What is the benefit of being a berserker? you simply get furious charge and +1 ws. But wait... the normal marines can get furious charge too if they pay ~2 points per model in a normal sized unit... so in reality you are paying 2 points for +1 ws to use a berserker. 2 points might not seem like much, but we are talking about an elite unit here. A troops unit SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO BE TURNED INTO AN ELITE UNIT EQUIVALENT... it proves your elite unit is broken. Sure you can take Berserkers as troops if you have a khorne lord, but having a khorne lord is a constraint that should lead to a benefit. It should not lead to an interchangeable unit. To be honest, I would rather have the assault weapon variety of the troops unit than the Khorne berserkers so I would go as far as to say the troop version of khorne berserkers w/ meltas and flamers is significantly better than the elite option. I also LOL at the fact that space marines are still better than chaos in elite close combat. All they had to do was make mutilators have eternal warrior and they could go toe to toe with hammernators. Sigh. Interesting (not going to have a "go" at you, I did after all create the thread for everyone to be able to list their grievances in one thread)... Your certainly the most negative by far. Some of the more cynical of the tournament players, like Jeske, thinks we will be quite fine though. I don`t think you should compare this codex with loyalists, given how this is going to play quite differently to Codex: Space Marine. I would like you to consider that Icons can be sniped and that marks cannot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Your certainly the most negative by far. Some of the more cynical of the tournament players, like Jeske, thinks we will be quite fine though. A unless they reprinted the 3ed chaos codex the new one could have not be worse . It was both technicly and practicly impossible . B some stuff gets better , some stuff gets worse . but base is the gav dex , so some legion players may feel bad [like AL dudes feeling like iron hands of the loyalist codex] , while BL dances on the graves of everyone . C some changes werent needed or are clearly bad rules writing on GW side. khorn demon weapon and khorn DPs, tyfus and cultists/zombis or how you need 10 NM to get a blast master . D the only way to play the dex and have real fun is 2k pts double FoC and this is not just a tournament thing ,a viable tournament list at 1500 is possible , even if all of them tend to be boring . play 10 games at 1500 and then play 10 games at 2k against different armies . after 10 games at 1500 you will feel like there is one optimal way to play ,at 2k you will have 10 different list and all will feel as if they may be ok . not saying top tier or good . but ok to not feel cheated of your cash. 2k is not bad per se , but when most of europe plays 1500 , some people may again not be happy. F . the fluff , the god damn fluff . marines ultra rare and hard to produce , empire sends 20 chapters in to the eye knowing very well they will not return . This not grim dark this is stupid. +they manged to make the SW story worse . some young wolfs turning on their officers[again puting aside the whole pack mentality where the officers would know in advnace what the young ones are planing etc] because they are terribly outnumbered was meh . them going renegade when there are 5 full grand companies fighting around them , makes no sense. E red ....red everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 General lack of Fearless, really. But it's so much better than the last one that I'm pretty much super happy :huh:. Really? With the lord granting fearless + native fearless on all the cult choices I was pretty happy about the level of fearlessness in the new book. This is a mistake on my part - I was rushing through stuff and missed that Fearless remained on the Cult Troops. I take it back :huh:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 I am going to add though that there is some confusing text in here. For example, I'm assuming that the Terminator Champion has to pay 7pts for his Combi-Weapon, but I'm not 100% sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 - Landraiders. We have the same old damn horrible land raider that we've had. Oh and guess what? When they updated the other codex books to make the transport capacity 12, we STILL GOT THE DAMN 10!!!!! -Either typos or just being stupid. The powerfist/termi thing and DP marks being a couple for example. -Lack of something to take on hammernators with. -Lack of Veteran skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 * Ahriman - the leader of the Corvidae - NOT HAVING DIVINATION as a psychic discipline. Why? * The terminator equippment failure. * Champion of Chaos-rule making our characters easy to trick away. But come on -we have cultists, we have anathame, we have fast attack, we have a lot of daemon engines. We have fun! :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diabloelmo Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Straight up, the new codex is far and above better than what we have been using, so my complaints with it are fairly minimal, and really are nothing that hasn't already been said here. I would have liked a bit more in-depth background for the different legions, but that's neither here nor there in the actual rules department. Terminators - why on earth can we no longer take fists and combi-weapons on the same miniature? I now need to pull my squad completely apart. Seems a little strange, hoping it gets FAQ'd. Would have liked a new Land Raider for them to ride around in, too. Oh well, my Atramentar and their ride will have to stay in their box for the time being until I can find a viable place for them. Bigger selection of Daemon weapons would have been nice - one each for the different gods, plus a couple undivided ones. Hell, I would probably STILL have taken the Black Mace on my lord, but a bit more choice would have been nice. Still, I'm nitpicking here. Most of the problems seem to be with units I don't actually use, so while I think the problems are legit, they don't actually affect me. I'm in love with the new codex, it's easily our best one yet. Yes, better than 3.5. By far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 No customization on cultists. Would have been nice to have an option to make them more of an elite insurgent force for us Alpha legion types. That was quite a pipe dream though, so barely qualifies as a disappointment. I really love the new book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 So, as a designer you are tasked with making a new and unique flier for Chaos? and you go for a frigging DRAGON? Get out of my 40K! They dropped the ball on that one, hard. I am with you 100%. I cannot believe someone honestly pitched this. And I cannot believe someone else actually greenlighted it. But then, there have been so many questionale design decisions in the past few years, perhaps I should not be surprised. It does sadden me, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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