Dissapointments with the new codex.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Are Defilers really as bad off as people are saying? Yes, they got more expensive. But they've gained a 5++, fear, the ability to regain hullpoints, and a round of re-roll wounds and armor pen (great on a first turn battlecannon shot into a block of vehicles!) Then you also have access to the new vehicle upgrades like dirge caster and gargoyles.

 

Yes, it's gonna run around 200 pts after upgrades, and yes that's a lot. But it was always an expensive unit, and it was always a fire magnet. Mine (both of them) have always existed to give me total control over what my opponent had to focus fire the first turn. Between 6th ed changes and these new rules, they've got a much better chance of surviving than they used to. I'm happy to have an already expensive unit get a bit more expensive if it means it serves its purpose so much better!

[Firefighter X]

FFX,

Terminator armor comes with a 5++, listed in the armory.

Mutilators/Obliterators have the Deamon USR, which gives a 5++.

 

You are right sir. I was so blinded by disappointment fed rage I forgot these 2 facts. Good catch.

 

I'm still not sold on having to pay 3 points a pop for an AP 4 axe though.

 

FFX

[Rain]

I'm still not sold on having to pay 3 points a pop for an AP 4 axe though.

 

FFX

 

So don't. I'm not going to. It really is kind of a silly upgrade, most people play MEQ and non-MEQ units generally don't depend on their armor saves anyway.

[Lord_Starscream]

There are a few things that disappoint me.

 

First? No 2+ non termie armour. Second? A lack of models for things like Cultists, Chosen, ect. And third? Having to put a Mark on my Daemon Prince.

 

Other then that I actually think its quite solid. Thank the Dark Gods for Phil Kelly.

[Brother Ambroz]

I agree, 3 points for AP 4 weapon with no other bonuses is crap. Only thing for me is the chain axe is far superior to chainswords asthetically in my mind.

[the jeske]

Yes, it's gonna run around 200 pts after upgrades, and yes that's a lot. But it was always an expensive unit, and it was always a fire magnet.

forgefiend cost the same upgraded , is smaller so easier to get cover for him.

[Spacefrisian]

Just 3 things that are a bit of a dissapointment.

 

No droppods.

No option of making Raptors scoring.

Landraider hasnt improved.

[Dammeron]

Though I'm something of an advocate for the new codex (it's a huge, huge step in the right direction, IMO) the problems that undermine it are exactly the same that undermined the last one; they've just progressed to a different level. Despite the improvements to options, customisation etc, there is still a feeling throughout the project has been hamstrung by hands other than the authors; what problems exist feel like they have been produced by committee. I have no doubt whatsoever that the original list of chaos rewards, artefacts etc was much, MUCH larger, I also have no doubt that the options for units such as Helbrutes were also much more extensive. Also, the icon system, whilst infinitely better this time around, is a missed opportunity. First of all, the icons should not have been limited by what mark your units take; this would have allowed for an unbelievable degree of customisation on individual unit and army wide scales. Secondly, they could have very easily provided more of the damn things, perhaps making them redolent of (but not exclusive to) the original Traitor legions (e.g. Icon of Iron, unit becomes stubborn inside buildings and fortifications, adds +1 to AP rolls or something like that). Secondly, there is absolutely no good reason whatsoever they are not available to Lords, Sorcerers and Daemon Princes. Once again, we have a problem with consistency: the bog standard troopers of a Chaos Force gain abilities that their lords, champions and commanders, hell even their damn DEMI GODS in the form of Daemon Princes, apparently don't benefit from. This makes no sense. This is the same issue of consistency that bedevilled 3.0 and 4.0, and it's so easily fixable: just give IPs the ability to buy personal icons for a set price.

 

I'm also very tired of seeing potentially great units ruined because GW want to sell bigger, more expensive kits that ostensibly perform the same or similar roles (nerfing of Helbrutes to sell Mauler and Forge fiends).

 

Generally, I am very pleased; the codex is a high quality product with alot of options and potential, but the mistakes and omissions that could have been easily, easily fixed are starting to grate on me. We've now had two editions of this issue; an issue which has been flagged, discussed, digested, debated and excreted all over the internet since the last codex came on the scene. We should expect better at this point, especially considering the quality of products such as the Dark Eldar codex and the price tag being asked.

[Trevak Dal]

And chainaxes should be ap4 Rending, and come on beserkers standard.

[pingo]

And chainaxes should be ap4 Rending, and come on beserkers standard.

Problem with that is they'd be more expensive base and render the chainswords in the kit (and models already built with them) useless.

[Trevak Dal]

I was half-expecting the Beserkers to be armed with "Khornate weapons" which would use the Chainsword profile in the BGB (s as user ap5 2 handed) and get +1 attack so they'd still be 2 attacks base (not counting the Bolt pistol as a ccw of course).

 

Not being 3 attacks base really, really, really makes me a dejected panda. If I could make WS5 Chosen Beserkers, that's where my 16 beserkers would be (with power weapon options instead of de-de-dee Plasma Pistols). Actually if I could just copy past the Death Company entry over the Beserkers entry I'd be fine.

 

You know...I'd say we could "rise up" like the fans did for Mass Effect 3...send them cupcakes and stuff to get them to issue rules for Drop pods, proper landraider options.

[Dammeron]

Having read over my assessment above, I can't help but feel it comes across as somewhat too negative: please don't mistake me, this codex, though ostensibly based on the bare bones of the previous travesty, is a millions miles away from that in terms of quality and potential. Whereas the previous codex was anaemic, with one highly questionable build for competitive play, this one is stuffed to the scalp with all manner of WORKABLE and characterful possibilities. New psychic power lores, chaos rewards, units, options...the codex is a high end product, generally well composed and will certainly suit my own Slaaneshi Severed Angels extremely well indeed. I am genuinely excited about the possibilities of this codex and, having read it through, am even inspired to start a secondary, Thousand Sons or Tzeenthchian force (something that hasn't happened since 3.5 yonks ago).

 

The problems I expressed above are frustrating, especially since the fixes are so readily apparent, but even given them, the codex is certainly one of the better floating around the 40K universe at present; a far cry from the ermagherd-ish-ness of the Grey Knights, closer in style and presentation to the still superlative Dark Eldar book. It just doesn't quite reach the heights of elegance of that particular tome, which is a pity.

[Tzimisce169]

Well having spent last night reading through the codex, for the most part I like it. HOWEVER...

 

1: As said by so many of my Chaos brethren here, DP should have EW.

 

2: The Chaos Rewards are extremely generic and a little lack-luster.

 

3: Terminators - you how have to pick either a gun upgrade or a melee upgrade. What idiot thought of that. I can, kind of understand why - the chaos legions simply do not have the massive resources of the imperium and so are limited.

 

4: Stupid flying dragon: The rules inthe BRB state that a flyer can shoot up to 4 weapon systems. Imperial flyers have more guns than you can shake a stick at. Why do we only get 1? What happened to wing mounted heavy bolters or something like that. Poor show GW Also the model looks like the designer got bored half way though and thought "Ah sod it, I'll just put an engine exhaust where the lower torso should be"

 

5: Warp talons - I love the models, I love the concept. Why did they not get the ability to assault straight from deep-strike?

Instead we get "blind" which is a pointless ability. Here is an example of a typical play:

 

Chaos Turn 2: Warp Talons pass their roll and turn up, more than likely out side of 6" of any enemy to avoid any mishap. The blind ability is not used. The Talons have no guns and so run to spread out a little.

 

Opponent Turn 2: Most heavy weapons in the army shoot at the Talons because they are sitting ducks and possibly the closes threat. While this means that those heavy guns are not shooting at your vehicles, is it really worth the sacrifice of a 190-220 point unit?

 

Even if the blind ability is used you'll be luck to effect more than 1 unit.

 

6: Land raiders - Seriously rubbish. We don't even get a corrupt version of POTMS

 

7: Lack of Sorcerer Lord: Even with the MoT, your Lord is not a Sorcerer and so you are stuck with a 2W leader is you want to take a thousand sons army.

 

8: Why can I not give my characters Fleshmetal as an armour upgrade?

 

9: Why does Drach'nyen, the render of reality, only strike at Str +1, AP2. Surely it should have Armourbane to represent it's destructive force. At the moment it's not much better than a power axe.

 

10: If Abaddon is meant to have the marks of all the gods, where are his Rage & Counter attack skill from the Mark of Khorne. I can see the other marks, extra toughness, extra initiative and 4++ save but nothing from the Blood god. On the plus side, at least he can lead any of the cult squads.

 

10: MY BIGGEST GRIPE: DARK APOSTLE - Has an LD of 10 as expected. Has the Zealot rule, giving him Hatred (everything) & Fearless.

 

His options include VOTLW for FREE!!!!! But he already has max LD and hatred. Why did they even bother putting this line in?

 

That is all for now.

 

+++END OF LINE+++

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

My copy hasn't arrived yet, its ETA is Tuesday, but something got dropped into my lap by an associate who scored his copy today that has already displeased me.

 

Hellbrutes, and by extension Dreadnoughts, can't be Marked.

 

One would think, and this may be me going out on yet another limb of logical presumption that often seems to go awry whenever it's applied to Games Workshop's design team, that with all the effort that Forge World went to to give Contemptor Dreadnoughts and Decimator Engines Marks that Phil Kelly would have put his foot down and glared menacingly enough to cow the most craven, Imperially-biased mutant cud-chewing cattle in that studio into not having been forced to half-ass the Codex units into inferiority when there are already examples of that system functioning just fine. I mean, if it was a newfangled concept I could see a hesitancy, but this isn't the first rodeo Mark-able engines have been on within the last two editions of the rules, so what's the sense of not using it if it ain't broken? EXPLAIN!! EXPLAIN!! EXPLAIN!! /dalek

 

I'm sure there will be follow-on gripes from me once the Codex is in hand, but that one has irked me enough to demand voicing.

[Trevak Dal]

Yeah the Warp Talons feel like the devs were making "Chaos Vanguard Veterans" and were stopped from making "Anti-Heroic Intervention" and subbed in the Blind thing to keep them from being "Chaos Vanguard Veterans" or being better than Vanguard Veterans by having lighting claws standard, and maybe the Blind thing is a "Helper" to get your guys into combat (like dirge casters nullifying Overwatch)

 

Basically you have a unit of say...khorne beserkers in a Landraider, and 2 units of Vetted/CCW CSMs in Rhinos with dirge casters. The Warp Talons Lee-Roy Jenkins onto the board right infront of a target and stand around all proud and rooster-like as they blind their victims with their Blinging spikes and such.

 

While they sit around and show off how blinging they are, the Khorne Beserkers-ever being the crazy choppy bastards they are, rush out and assault the ws1...or is it -1 WS? whatever, the victim unit and wreck them. It's a 1 trick pony, and since you don't have any control over your reserves you may end up with them coming on when you don't need them.

 

Now...if Warp Talons had Sky-Leap or something like that...it'd go a long way to making them viable. I'm going to proxy my possessed as Warp Talons, and then use them as possessed, and whichever is the least dumpy of the two choices I'll take, my test games against my Tau (and against similarly pointed Chaos Space Marines taken from the last codex) have proven less than stellar on both fronts. I'm waiting for a "proper game" against another opponent instead of against myself to account for alternative strategies and view points, another player may do something completely different than how I could possibly predict and my army selection is limited to Tau and Chaos. I got enough Chaos to fight against Chaos, but things end up being a little one sided for one side. In any case, it's mostly so I can get down the who nature of Challenges, Rolling on the table(s) and such.

 

Possessed and Warp Talons are...not really making the grade. I guess they saved me money on a kit I won't buy any more of (possessed) and on a kit I don't need (Raptor/Warp talons).

[Lepaca]

Daemon Princes. Went from the thing I loved most about Chaos to overpriced, LD9 and no EW.

[gizur]

In case of the TDA options i dont know the wording in english, but in the german version of the Dex i can chosse PF and Combi weapon on the same Model.

[Tzimisce169]

Well if this is the future of TDA for chaos and it doesn't get rectified, GW will need to update the Chaos Terminator box set because at the moment there is very little in the way of customisation available compared to, say, the Wolf guard termy box.

[Brother Amarel]

In case of the TDA options i dont know the wording in english, but in the german version of the Dex i can chosse PF and Combi weapon on the same Model.

The English version states that "Any Chaos Terminator may choose one of the following three options:" (emphasis mine).

 

Don't forget, though, that a "Power Weapon" can be a Power Sword, Power Axe, Power Maul or Power Lance. So there's some choice in there.

[Haunter!]

10: If Abaddon is meant to have the marks of all the gods, where are his Rage & Counter attack skill from the Mark of Khorne. I can see the other marks, extra toughness, extra initiative and 4++ save but nothing from the Blood god. On the plus side, at least he can lead any of the cult squads.

They're special rules and are covered by "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" stating he has all marks. They don't need to be added to his list of special rules or profile because that would be redundant.

[Tzimisce169]

10: If Abaddon is meant to have the marks of all the gods, where are his Rage & Counter attack skill from the Mark of Khorne. I can see the other marks, extra toughness, extra initiative and 4++ save but nothing from the Blood god. On the plus side, at least he can lead any of the cult squads.

They're special rules and are covered by "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" stating he has all marks. They don't need to be added to his list of special rules or profile because that would be redundant.

 

So what you are saying is that Abby HAS the skills granted by the MoK, they're just not shown on his page.

 

That is how I originally read it but I didn't know if I was interpreting it properly

[Dosadi]

Overall I feel it’s a big improvement over the previous version. The things I like the most are Veterans of the Long War rules as it supports the background and allows players to differentiate between traitor legionnaires and renegade marines, and the rearrangement of the Cult troops back into elites, allowing players to unlock them via their lord. This is the way I feel it should have always been done. However, I would have liked to see a bit more don’t to develop the cult troopers, which I’ll explain below.

 

 

So, here is my list of issues for the new Chaos Space Marine Codex.

 

I’d have liked to see a daemon weapon for each chaos power and a few generic ones (for a total of 6 or 7).

 

On that note, a few more Icons would have been cool as well. Give us the ability to mix and match some interesting abilities on various units and see the results. An Icon that gives Acute Senses and Night Vision for example. Not really OP in anyway, but people may find interesting uses for such a thing and it could be supported by background and calling it the “Warp Sight Banner” or something.

 

Make the Doom Siren a Special Issue Wargear Item (MoS only) so we can make “Noise Lords”.

 

Perhaps a suit of “chaos armour” that gives a 2+ save, but -1 Leadership as it has broken the wearer to its will? Or just make Fleshmetal a Chaos Reward.

 

Give Fabius Bile the Shred Special Rule to represent his “anatomical knowledge”. This combined with the Rod of Torment’s Instant Death rule would make this guy something to fear in close combat. Perhaps instead of FnP, It Will Not Die would have been a more interesting ability for Bile, his rig just keeps him going despite wounds that would fell another “man”.

 

I miss not being able to upgrade any number of Terminators to Champions (and lament the loss of the 3rd Attack). These guys have been fighting across the galaxy for 10,000 years (well some have) and being able to take a squad akin to the Ork Nob squad would have been really cool. On that note, I’m not a fan of how they have limited the weapon upgrades for Terminators. So I can’t take a combi-flamer if I also have a powerfist?

 

Chosen: Why can’t they take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport?

 

Helbrutes! Where are my marked dreadnoughts?!?!

 

Berserkers: Give them an option for a few power weapons in the squad. Like 1 in 5 can take a power weapon (axe, maul, sword, lance). These guys love to get in there and muck it up, so a few are bound to pick up a power weapon along the way. I guess the fact that you can pretty much duplicate these guys with Chosen who do have that option is the solution then. Still and giant two-handed chain axe would have been a cool addition.

Make Chainaxes 2 points.

 

Thousand Sons: Give them a Heavy Bolter…1 in 5. But make it expensive (say 10-15 points) with inferno bolts. I dunno, it just seems right to me that a few of these automatons would still have it in them to swing a big gun.

 

On the subject of cult troops. There is zero mention of the chaos power’s magic numbers. Maybe it’s a silly convention that GW is trying to retcon out of existence. But having some benefit for taking units at the magic number would have been cool. Say, you get their marked icon for free. So 8 Berserkers get the Banner of Wrath or 9 Thousand Sons get the Flame Banner at no cost, etc.

 

Now that I’ve giveth…I’m going to taketh.

 

Oblitrators shouldn’t have assault cannons. This was done simply because those terrible models have assault cannons coming out of their silly putty hands.

 

The following units shouldn’t have Marks IMO. Obliterators, Mutilators and Raptors. The original background for these units had them as sort of a cult unto themselves. The Obliterators worshiped a corrupted version of the Machine God and I can’t see that supplication being replaced by the dedicated worship of a particular chaos power. If I can’t mark my daemon engines (and helbrute), then why can I mark their lil’buddies who, as I see it, come from the same place (ie; Dark Mechanicus Forges)?

 

Same goes for the Raptors who were often referred to as cult, separated from the other chaos marines by their drive for speed and the fast assault. Now there is less background to back this up; but I always saw the Raptors as something akin to the daemon furies. Give them Hit and Run back and leave the Marks for the more dedicated followers.

 

 

Dosadi

[Lexington]

Basically you have a unit of say...khorne beserkers in a Landraider, and 2 units of Vetted/CCW CSMs in Rhinos with dirge casters. The Warp Talons Lee-Roy Jenkins onto the board right infront of a target and stand around all proud and rooster-like as they blind their victims with their Blinging spikes and such.

The problem with Blind is that it only triggers on a failed Initiative test. So, you can reliably blind...Necrons. And Orks. Lightning Claws aren't hugely useful against big hordes like Orks, so Warp Talons' Warpflame Attack is really contIngent on your opponent taking a single army...

 

Gotta wonder what they were thinking with this unit.

[Pariah Mk.231]

With the addition of Warp Talons to be the "cult" unit, it's only fair that Raptors can take marks to represent different jump pack troops from varying legions. As for Obliterators having assault cannons, I'm pretty sure they could originally morph them, which is why the models have them, not the other way around.

 

I'm with you on the idea of Obliterators/Mutilators not be allowed to take marks, but I suppose they figured we wanted to be able to mark EVERYTHING (except of course vehichles - even if they are piloted by a crazed champion of the gods or an evil warp entity - because really, who wants their forgeworld World Eaters dready to be a real combat menace?!).

 

Totally agreeing with Bezerkers too. "I'd love a power axe to better cleave skulls for Khorne, but that plasma pistol is rather shiny!". Apparently they get tired really fast now too, expending themselves shortly after the charge ... or even if they stand still and let the enemy charge them instead. Khorne Chosen with the Banner of Wrath do it better now, plus they can rapid fire on the way to the fight and more effectively Overwatch if charged.

 

And I'm feeling you on your point about "Noise Lords", especially since I remember a happy time when it could be done. And Fleshmetal not being available to chaos lords? I remember Chaos Armour, I even remember Beserkers coming standard with it in 2nd. And where are the Collars of Khorne? And making Lords cheaper but having to pay for their invul save? No, we didn't like that our lords came standard with an invul, we wanted to be able to field them without it.

 

And of course, with the demise of Undivided, I'm going to start abusing the crap out of the marks for my Iron Warriors, who used to avoid them, just because, well, why not?! Khorne or Tzeentch for everyone!!!

[Trevak Dal]

Well, to be fair I just add the 'Chaos iron halo' and Veterans of the Long War to the base cost. When I get my proper hard copy in the mail, I'm going to go through with a sharpie and correct some of the prices in this way (basically adding Veterans of the Long war to all codex entries that can take it).