Dissapointments with the new codex.

[Killax]

Well, to be fair I just add the 'Chaos iron halo' and Veterans of the Long War to the base cost. When I get my proper hard copy in the mail, I'm going to go through with a sharpie and correct some of the prices in this way (basically adding Veterans of the Long war to all codex entries that can take it).

 

Lol, why?!

[Kol Saresk]

"Chaos Iron Halo"? I thought we were supposed to be going away from the image of "Spiky Marines", not running towards it with open arms.

[TheDarkApostle]

As for Obliterators having assault cannons, I'm pretty sure they could originally morph them, which is why the models have them, not the other way around.

 

Corrent, when obliterators were first introduced in the 3.0 jervis codex they could indeed morph assault cannons.

 

TDA

[Killax]

What would be the problem with it anyway? They are able to morph into weaponry. Heck if for some reason they decided he could use a Kai gun, he could use a Kai gun.

A true Chaos Legionair should not mind the mutation and seek reason behind it. This is Chaos energy, not reason Loyalist tools.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

What would be the problem with it anyway? They are able to morph into weaponry. Heck if for some reason they decided he could use a Kai gun, he could use a Kai gun.

A true Chaos Legionair should not mind the mutation and seek reason behind it. This is Chaos energy, not reason Loyalist tools.

 

Unfortunately that logic cuts both ways. If an entity can morph a solid-shot weapon system out of itself, then in effect expenditure of ammunition would be it literally shooting pieces of itself into its target, which it doesn't take damage from even though by all rights it ought to be because, well, it just shot its technoviral spleen out of the hole that used to be its hand. On the converse, an entity with the ability to morph energy weapons likely wouldn't morph one that could potentially harm itself, so why then is Obliterator plasma subject to Gets Hot?

 

Oblits are all kinds of senseless, we're just expected to roll with it no matter if it's senseless-good or senseless-bad. That such antics are the sign of weak minds at the design stage doesn't seem to register.

[Feste]

What would be the problem with it anyway? They are able to morph into weaponry. Heck if for some reason they decided he could use a Kai gun, he could use a Kai gun.

A true Chaos Legionair should not mind the mutation and seek reason behind it. This is Chaos energy, not reason Loyalist tools.

 

Unfortunately that logic cuts both ways. If an entity can morph a solid-shot weapon system out of itself, then in effect expenditure of ammunition would be it literally shooting pieces of itself into its target, which it doesn't take damage from even though by all rights it ought to be because, well, it just shot its technoviral spleen out of the hole that used to be its hand. On the converse, an entity with the ability to morph energy weapons likely wouldn't morph one that could potentially harm itself, so why then is Obliterator plasma subject to Gets Hot?

 

Oblits are all kinds of senseless, we're just expected to roll with it no matter if it's senseless-good or senseless-bad. That such antics are the sign of weak minds at the design stage doesn't seem to register.

Getting all fluffed up, why is an energy weapon any different? You're talking about a 'creature' creating a massive amount of matter, heating it to a plasma state and then expelling at extremely high speeds; I see no reason not think that 'Gets Hot' is an example of the Obliterator falling over from plowing so much energy into the cannon shot.

 

And yep, Obliterators are a crazy, absurd creature. I think that when you're talking about CSM, you passed the point of being able to point at them and laugh.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Getting all fluffed up, why is an energy weapon any different? You're talking about a 'creature' creating a massive amount of matter, heating it to a plasma state and then expelling at extremely high speeds; I see no reason not think that 'Gets Hot' is an example of the Obliterator falling over from plowing so much energy into the cannon shot.

 

Like I said, it cuts both ways. Obliterators violate several profound physical principles by virtue of the rules of the game violating those same principles. The argument that they can pop a lascannon out of their foreheads and muster the internal energy to actually have it fire and it not cooking them from the inside-out is just as viable an argument against Gets Hot as the argument is for Gets Hot. Even trying to rationalize it with something on the order of "the excess energy that normally would just bake an Obliterator down to its boots gets expelled back into the Warp from whence it came because the nature of the Obliterator technovirus provides a consistent and stable conduit into the Immaterium once embedded in a physical form" just to try and dodge the "it's sorcery" fallback is such a blanket proposal that it would rule Gets Hot out by the same process. It's Niels Bohr's birthday today and I'm certain he'd have much to say on the subject were he still alive.

[Paradigm]

I really hope the design team reads bolter and chainsword. Maybe they'll utilize the amazing level of knowledge about csm and apply it to a quick but long list of errata. I've never been frustrated with gw before, but I really am now. Why couldn't the icons be taken without marks, or mix and match? That alone would have kept me happy, right now there isn't much point in taking the icons outside of cult troops, they are just not cost effective. Granted the cult troops aren't really either, except maybe the noise marines. Those are surprisingly useful now.

[Iron Sage]

Getting all fluffed up, why is an energy weapon any different? You're talking about a 'creature' creating a massive amount of matter, heating it to a plasma state and then expelling at extremely high speeds; I see no reason not think that 'Gets Hot' is an example of the Obliterator falling over from plowing so much energy into the cannon shot.

 

Like I said, it cuts both ways. Obliterators violate several profound physical principles by virtue of the rules of the game violating those same principles. The argument that they can pop a lascannon out of their foreheads and muster the internal energy to actually have it fire and it not cooking them from the inside-out is just as viable an argument against Gets Hot as the argument is for Gets Hot. Even trying to rationalize it with something on the order of "the excess energy that normally would just bake an Obliterator down to its boots gets expelled back into the Warp from whence it came because the nature of the Obliterator technovirus provides a consistent and stable conduit into the Immaterium once embedded in a physical form" just to try and dodge the "it's sorcery" fallback is such a blanket proposal that it would rule Gets Hot out by the same process. It's Niels Bohr's birthday today and I'm certain he'd have much to say on the subject were he still alive.

 

I am pretty certain that Niels Bohr wouldn`t give a damn.

 

Tecnology: Abides by the law of physics.

 

Warp: Does not abide by the law of physics

 

 

Obliterators = Warp+ Technology.

[Trevak Dal]

"Chaos Iron Halo"? I thought we were supposed to be going away from the image of "Spiky Marines", not running towards it with open arms.

 

I could call it a 'sigil of corruption' but its a Chaos Iron Halo that, much like everything else, we got to pay for and Loyalists don't. Plus there's precedence from the Space Marine video game on the Devestator loadouts on the Chaos side.

 

Lol why?

 

Because I don't intend to not take it, and you have to buy your invulnerable save, be it the Chaos Iron Halo (Sigil of corruption) or the 5+ Dark Aura thing, and I don't like the idea of running a Lord without an invulnerable save. Now, I do have a Chaos Lieutenant built for combat patrol and the like.

 

My view on obliterators are that via the techno-virus, they can essentially transmute material around them (sort of like Fullmetal Alchemist, or sCRYed) into more ammo/energy as needed, and in that line of thinking, a mark of nurgle is kind of fluffy because the process disintegrates matter around them (if they transmuted stuff).

[SamaNagol]

Would have liked to see a 2+ power armour available to Lords/Sorcerors. And more Daemon Weapons

 

Cheaper special weapons in Troops choices.

 

Fearless Terminators and I could have stomached the Champion paying obscene costs for his weapons.

 

Lack of mobility is a problem. Logically.... how do CSM attack from orbit? Teleport? Gunships? Drop Pods? Where are these options? Rhino rush and overcosted Land Raiders is very 3rd Ed.

 

Rhinos supported by Raptors, bikes and Forgefiends? A decent build.

[Brother Dakath]

Well, I must say that I do enjoy this new codex more then the previous incarnation of it, there are some things that I'm not terribly happy about but it is still an improvement, I do like the new units.

 

Here are things I'm terribly happy about:

 

1: Daemonic Possession on vehicles randomly eating people and restoring Hull Points. Very fluffly and characterful IMO.

2: Dark Apostles (Even though they didn't come as I would have preferred them I do like them.)

3: Cultists! Finally some cannon fodder for my marines to be behind, again very characterful.

4: Sigil of Corruption, finally an Iron Halo equivalent, no more giving HQs Mark of Tzeentch to get them a better save.

5: Possessed's Daemonkin table. It's still random but at least there's no "useless" rolls anymore.

6: Marks on Terminators again, finally.

7: The different Icons. They can be dreadfully expensive but I think it adds a cool little bonus if you're willing to buy them.

8: The Gift of Mutation. I can see some people as seeing it as a rather silly upgrade but I like it.

9: The Chaos Boon table. Every since I had picked up a copy of Warriors of Chaos for WHFB, I never understood why something like that was never in 40k. Now I have it, and I do like the randomness especially since the model could end up as a Spawn or a Daemon Prince!

10: Obliterators having to switch off weapons. I love this. It adds to the chaotic feel of them. I never really liked how people would only use them for one weapon the whole game. Personal style issue only.

11: Chain axes. This is going to be in both lists, but it's up in the likes due to the AP 4. I never really liked how a guardsman had a chance of an armor save against a Khorne Berserker.

12: Chaos Spawn. They don't seem to me to be such a stupid list entry anymore.

13: Havoc squad weapons. This could be a moot point but I seem to remember their weapons costs (and their loyalist conterparts) being much higher. Like half again as many points for a lascannon.

14: The Forge/Maulerfiends. I like the fact we actually have demon engines now. I might never use them but I like them.

 

Here are the list of things I'm not a big fan of:

 

1: Chaos Terminator weapon options/Daemon Princes HAVING to be aligned.

2: Daemon Princes "Marks" being different then the normal marks. I don't understand why they did that.

3: No buyable 2+ non-TDA armor.

4: The Heldrake. I don't like the model, it would be awesome with a tail but it looks like a chicken to me. Also, the fact it only has one gun. Why couldn't it's talons have some kind of gun in them?

5: The Land Raider's transport capacity and lack of Daemonic Intelligence (PotMS)

6: Lack of a Dreadclaws or other kinds of planetary transport.

7: Mutilators. They can only be taken in squads of 3, they are slow and purposeful yet are supposed to be weapon masters...also the models are not very appealing to me.

8: Chain axes. Love the idea, but 3 points a model is a little expensive.

9: Warpsmiths. This is only here because I wish they had something similar to Masters of the Forge where they could make Daemon Engines and Helbrutes Elites and/or Heavy Support. Personal style issue only.

 

That's just my two cents and opinion.

[SamaNagol]

No new SCs is inexcusable really.

[Pariah Mk.231]

That issue about Obliterators firing bits of themselves when using solid projectile weapons kind of has an answer in their entry: Apparently now they eat ammunition and drink fuel.

 

Not a very good explaination, but I can see what they were getting at. He eats the ammo, and absorbs the matter into himself to be stored for the precise purpose of reforming and expelling it once more as ammunition for solid projectile weaponry. Then they simply feast on munitions again after a battle to replenish their stores. The FFG Black Crusade rulebook also has a bit of a closer look at how Obliterators work.

[the jeske]

they also eat plasma cells . how do they not explode doing that or after getting shot/transported/ pushed a bit harder is not explained.

[Pariah Mk.231]

they also eat plasma cells . how do they not explode doing that or after getting shot/transported/ pushed a bit harder is not explained.

 

 

Didn't see anything about them eating plasma cells, I figured they did some warp-mojo and converted the fuel they drink into plasma when they need it and fire that rather than actually prancing around with raw plasma flowing through their veins.

[Sception]

items of disappointment for Malisteen, from most disappointing to least:

 

 

No generic cult HQs, no Cult terminators. These would not have been that hard to do, and would have been a nice nod to the cult armies.

 

Possessed not meaningfully fixed

 

Thousand sons not meaningfully fixed

 

No unmarked princes, despite there being several unaligned princes in the canon

 

No new special characters, when such could have been used add some legion feel to the book.

 

characters forced into challenges, but lack meaningful advantages in such until after they've already won a few.

 

Limited wargear & gifts list. Equipment is essential for melee characters, and we're somewhat lacking; only one daemon weapon for anyone not khorne marked, no kai gun equivalent, even for warpsmiths, no 2+ outside of termie armor, and not even all the HQs can take that, etc.

 

Several assault specialists lacking in grenades without any notable discount or mitigation for their absence

 

Transport capacity back down for land raider / No chaos exclusive, transport-focused land raider variant, which, for an assault army, was kind of needed.

 

No dreadclaw / planetary transport

 

Loss of teleport homers outside of the key, which typically isn't active when reserves start arriving.

 

No interaction with the daemon book, missed opportunity to highlight ally rules

 

No unique fortifications, again missed opportunity

 

No "wow" factor, nothing amazing or intimidating rule's wise to make players stand up and take notice, to make chaos players cackle with glee or leave other gamers quivering in their boots. Most units actually pretty bland, many special rules as much a hindrance as a benefit, and most options feel somewhat overpriced. Little or nothing allows to just be awesome.

 

New Daemon Engine models don't live up to precedent set by the DV hellbrute

 

Dragon somewhat lacking in offensive punch

 

Mutilators not a great concept rules-wise, models poorly executed

 

Arbitrary minor debuffs to units that didn't need them, particularly CSMs (who lose a point of leadership for the same points when equipped as they were) and terminators (the whole 'either fist or combi, not both' thing).

 

Only 2 wound versions of smiths, apostles, sorcerers. Would rather have seen smith, apostle, & sorcerer as mutually exclusive upgrade options for either lords or reintroduced 2 wound lieutenants.

 

Abaddon's sword is good in the game, but not at all evocative of the fluff

 

Chosen seem a bit overpriced

 

No troop terminators for Abaddon, no force org shenan's for warpsmith

 

 

As a note, though this is longer than my happy list from the other thread, overall I'm more happy with the things I like than I am disappointed with the things I don't. Overall, I'm quite satisfied with the new book, and am eager to start playing games with it.

[Lepaca]

No unmarked princes, despite there being several unaligned princes in the canon

 

The thing that confuses me the most is that the boon table CAN produce unmarked princed while our HQ needs to be marked.

Completly sense free.

[Pariah Mk.231]

No unmarked princes, despite there being several unaligned princes in the canon

 

The thing that confuses me the most is that the boon table CAN produce unmarked princed while our HQ needs to be marked.

Completly sense free.

 

Clearly choosing your patron comes on day 2 of being a prince.

[Odsox]

Unfortunately I don't have anything to whinge about just yet because I got my copy last night, had to go straight to bed and am now at work so I haven't had a proper read of it, but something strange is popping up at me:

 

Our ICs, Champions, vehicles etc. don't need to pay for additional wargear. It simply says, "May takemelee/ranmged options from (insert relevant wargear section here)" and when I turn to those pages, nothing is priced.

 

Is that right? It can't be right, can it? AGAIN, I'd like to state that I HAVE NOT HAD TIME TO READ IT PROPERLY YET.

 

Which is why I'm asking here. Because it's quicker.

 

Yes.

 

Od.

[Pariah Mk.231]

That stuff is indeed priced, no freebies in the wargear section.

[Odsox]

That stuff is indeed priced, no freebies in the wargear section.

 

Excellent, so I just need my eyes checking. Again.

 

Thanks! :D

 

Od.

 

++EDIT++

 

WAAAAAHHH, I WANT MY BLOODFEEDER BACK, WAAAAAHHH!

[Lord_Caerolion]

No unmarked princes, despite there being several unaligned princes in the canon

 

It seems to me that, given A D-B's explanations of phasing out "Chaos Undivided" as an entity, that even those "unaligned" Princes are Marked, just not as blatantly. For example, a Night Lord who is unaligned might become a Daemon Prince without swearing his soul to any particular god, and who's received the favour of all four, but it was Khorne who ascended him, pleased by the bloodshed he had spread throughout the stars. Now, he's not going to turn red and suddenly start screaming "Kill maim burn", but his bloodlust will be heightened, and his desire to hunt down all prey before him, and skin them alive. The same goes with all other "unaligned" daemon princes. They still view themselves as unaligned, but that doesn't mean that they haven't caught the eye of one God in particular, moreso than the others.

[Lepaca]

No unmarked princes, despite there being several unaligned princes in the canon

 

It seems to me that, given A D-B's explanations of phasing out "Chaos Undivided" as an entity, that even those "unaligned" Princes are Marked, just not as blatantly. For example, a Night Lord who is unaligned might become a Daemon Prince without swearing his soul to any particular god, and who's received the favour of all four, but it was Khorne who ascended him, pleased by the bloodshed he had spread throughout the stars. Now, he's not going to turn red and suddenly start screaming "Kill maim burn", but his bloodlust will be heightened, and his desire to hunt down all prey before him, and skin them alive. The same goes with all other "unaligned" daemon princes. They still view themselves as unaligned, but that doesn't mean that they haven't caught the eye of one God in particular, moreso than the others.

 

That in itself would not be the problem. But the Hatred (opposite daemons) is a real kick in the nuts for a follower of the undivided pantheon. :D

[Sception]

It seems to me that, given A D-B's explanations of phasing out "Chaos Undivided" as an entity, that even those "unaligned" Princes are Marked, just not as blatantly.

 

That just really, really doesn't fit with some of the canon princes. Particularly some of the daemon primarchs. Tell me, which chaos god does Lorgar serve above all the others? Which god does he spit upon and despise? Which chaos god did the Haunter debase himself before? Which daemonic patron does Peturabo bend his knee to?

 

They may be working back to the 'these four gods are all chaos is' version of the warp, but that's a stupid, extremely limited version of things that is needlessly limiting and fits quite poorly with the fluff in general, and the nonsense of only aligned princes (when unaligned princes clearly exist, as pointed out they can even arise in the middle of a freaking game using the same book that tells us only aligned princes are allowed!) is just the start of the stupidity that will result from trying to enforce this version of chaos in the fluff.