Dissapointments with the new codex.

[Xenith]

Thank you for creating this thread. It would be great if all the people with gripes about the new dex could post them here, and only here, then I can avoid reading them! :)

[Lord_Caerolion]

It seems to me that, given A D-B's explanations of phasing out "Chaos Undivided" as an entity, that even those "unaligned" Princes are Marked, just not as blatantly.

 

That just really, really doesn't fit with some of the canon princes. Particularly some of the daemon primarchs. Tell me, which chaos god does Lorgar serve above all the others? Which god does he spit upon and despise? Which chaos god did the Haunter debase himself before? Which daemonic patron does Peturabo bend his knee to?

 

They may be working back to the 'these four gods are all chaos is' version of the warp, but that's a stupid, extremely limited version of things that is needlessly limiting and fits quite poorly with the fluff in general, and the nonsense of only aligned princes (when unaligned princes clearly exist, as pointed out they can even arise in the middle of a freaking game using the same book that tells us only aligned princes are allowed!) is just the start of the stupidity that will result from trying to enforce this version of chaos in the fluff.

 

You're still failing to get it. I never said they "bend their knees" to a particular god, in fact I said the complete opposite. The Prince still views themself as undivided, but Khorne would have taken a particular interest in Night Haunter, or perhaps Nurgle, for example. Lorgar, I can see Tzeentch favouring him a little more strongly, given the massive upheaval he caused. Yes, I don't particularly like the fact that the rules give Hatred (rival daemons) automatically, but the fact remains that a God favouring you does not require in any way whatsoever for you to favour that God. Just look at Uzas and his relation to Khorne, or

Cyrion

and Slaanesh. The fluff in Black Crusade is overtly taking this direction, stating that while they're an Undivided Legion, and direct their prayers to all gods equally, the Alpha Legion have drawn the eye of Tzeentch, who takes particular interest in them. Do they "spit upon and despise" Nurgle? No. However, the stasis that Nurgle espouses is at odds with the fluidity of the Alpha Legion mindset, and so the Nurgle 'way of life' is anathema to them. Is it a religious hatred? No. They still worship Nurgle, they just have pretty much zero reasons to begin following only him.

Hell, the entire Black Crusade character advancement system is based around the idea that you don't have to pay attention to a God for it to pay attention to you. You can call yourself Undivided all you like, but if you have a dislike of sorcery and prefer carving people up with a knife, then you're going to get paid quite a bit of attention from one particular god.

 

That's the part you're failing to accept. It isn't necessarily "a Daemon Prince of Khorne only ever worships Khorne", but rather can also include "the Daemon Prince views himself as Undivided, but Khorne rewards him moreso than the other 3, because his actions strengthen Khorne the most".

It makes far more sense than inventing a power that GW is saying doesn't exist (the 'being' Chaos Undivided), or hand-waving exactly how the Chaos Gods all come together to decide to make Lorgar a daemon prince, and who gets to do what with him, and so on.

 

As for the game allowing for Undivided daemon princes, easy explanation: they aren't actually a daemon prince, but rather given an absolutely kick-ass mutation/blessing that, for game purposes, makes their stats identical to that of a Daemon Prince.

[the jeske]

The Prince still views themself as undivided, but Khorne would have taken a particular interest in Night Haunter, or perhaps Nurgle, for example

only when your marked/recreated by a god it works like this . you are for ever tied to one god , all you do buffs your creator and him alone and debuffs his opposite . now if lets say perturbo was slanesh [example] and suddenly went on a spree of doing the same things always , non stop , he would end up a spawn . the same would happen to a khorn haunter not going kill kill kill ,but spending time killing , exsanguinating stuff etc . If it works different then this means the whole fluff about chaos gods , how marking works , how worship works in w40k would be void . I mean lorgar would make no sense at all . If one god changed him to a demon prince , then this means that one and only that one ever gets more power from stuff he does [lets for a second put side what that god thinks about lorgar enforcing the whole multi god thing in his legion] . No other god would buff him , ever , because he would never get anything out of it . Yet unless we get fluff totaly changing that , here we have a lorgar who is blessed by many chaos gods not just the main 4 . for that to work he either has no mark[then how is he a DP?] at all or the thing we call mark of chaos undivided works like others said in this thread already .

[Captain Hwarang]

No new SCs is inexcusable really.

 

I totally agree with this. I wouldn't mind if this was the first codex in a trend of cutting back named characters overall, but still, how many new guys did the loyalists get? 30?

 

I wish berserkers were cooler. At the moment, you can make the equivalent with MOK and IOW on regular guys, or make even better ones if you start with chosen.

 

Anyway, the codex I like okay. The main problem for me is the new models. They are so awesome-looking that no other previously produced chaos model looks right next to them. The terminators now look like clumsy blocks, the regular marines are plain boring and too small, the cult marines suffer from the same problem, the possessed are far too comic-booky, and the obliterators/mutilators still look strange. The only models that hold up to the new ones in my opinion are Typhus, Huron, and some of the plague marine sculpts.

[hack n slash]

Back on codex complaints at the moment I've only got one and that's the fact I can create a unit of 11 near zerkers from basic marines for 2 pts less each (with votlw icon of wrath and mk khorn champ with power sword total 221) but with one less WS and not fearless over 10 normal zerkers (total 225). This to me seems off. Overall I like it a great improvement over the last book.

[RedMoon]

why are we ripping the arms off our terminators? holding the codex in front of me now....says may replace powerweapon with powerfist. etc etc, and may replace combi bolter with combi melta etc etc,....so where is the problem with this?

[Milez]

Read above that, it states "Any Chaos Terminator may choose ONE of the following three options:" The key word is ONE, not all , not any, just ONE option. Either your melee weapon, or your ranged weapon can be replaced, not BOTH. Or you can get a pair of LCs.

[Subtle Discord]

The entry says "May take any one of the following three options". So you can't choose to take a Power Fist and a Combi-Weapon. One or the other, not both.

[SamaNagol]

No chainfist/combi-melta or Lightning Claw/combi-weapon models allowed, apart from the Champion.

 

Annoying.

[Pariah Mk.231]

Yes, I don't particularly like the fact that the rules give Hatred (rival daemons) automatically

 

 

That's from 2nd ed when daemons could potentionally charge and their rivals if they were within range and failed the animosity test. It's a rule I'm perfectly comfortable with and wished hadn't been dropped in 3rd, I'm glad it's made something of a comeback.

[Brother Evar]

What gets me is that veterans of the long war is not built in automaticly. You don't need to be a legionary to hate a SM that much. Also the pts for the rule fluctuate based on the unit. A lack of EW is also a worry on pts heavy models.

 

Also the most fustrating thing is the fact that my unit champs auto accept challanges. Seems that the pre roll upgrade on chaos boon table is auto include to give you an edge. Not having 2+ or an invuln on unit champs makes it more of a liability. I think I will take plasma pistol, power sword and melta bombs on CSM trooper champs. Ha, might get a 6 in def fire and they might fail look out sir roll...

 

The terminator entry is stupidly written and pts costed. This will be the first BL army I take without termi's and its killing me.

 

I think khorne is out and Nurgle in as far as cult troops go.

 

Allied IG probably better than cultists that aren't nurgle based. Just use cultists as IG or penal legion squads.

 

Expected a bit more out of it to be homest, though IMO it sits in bracket with BA and SW as far as power. GK will probably still give us a hard time.

 

Overall though, I will probably enjoy playing it like my vanilla SM dex (re: fun factor).

[Sception]

As for the game allowing for Undivided daemon princes, easy explanation: they aren't actually a daemon prince, but rather given an absolutely kick-ass mutation/blessing that, for game purposes, makes their stats identical to that of a Daemon Prince.

 

Not what the book says. Book says they're a daemon prince. And automatic hatred of opposite alignment says there are no princes who consider themselves 'unaligned', despite being elevated by one of the gods. It's also a terrible interpretation to say the undivided daemon primarchs, particularly Lorgar, are really aligned, and are just too stupid to realize it.

 

The obligation to mark princes isn't codex ruining, but it is irksome, and it speaks of a 'the four gods are all chaos is' mentality that is needlessly simplistic and simply doesn't fit with other established fluff. Not just unaligned princes, but also the eldar gods, lesser chaos powers, lesser daemons like furies, non-daemon warp entities like the enslavers, that the imperium existed before the chaos gods came into being, and so on.

 

 

So yes, the inability to field an unaligned prince is very disappointing to me, not just because I own such a prince and took time converting and painting it to add a touch of each of the gods, but also because the version of the warp that this rule implies is one I find far more boring than the one that allows for unaligned princes.

[Smurfalypse]

As for the game allowing for Undivided daemon princes, easy explanation: they aren't actually a daemon prince, but rather given an absolutely kick-ass mutation/blessing that, for game purposes, makes their stats identical to that of a Daemon Prince.

 

Not what the book says. Book says they're a daemon prince. And automatic hatred of opposite alignment says there are no princes who consider themselves 'unaligned', despite being elevated by one of the gods. It's also a terrible interpretation to say the undivided daemon primarchs, particularly Lorgar, are really aligned, and are just too stupid to realize it.

 

The obligation to mark princes isn't codex ruining, but it is irksome, and it speaks of a 'the four gods are all chaos is' mentality that is needlessly simplistic and simply doesn't fit with other established fluff. Not just unaligned princes, but also the eldar gods, lesser chaos powers, lesser daemons like furies, non-daemon warp entities like the enslavers, that the imperium existed before the chaos gods came into being, and so on.

 

 

So yes, the inability to field an unaligned prince is very disappointing to me, not just because I own such a prince and took time converting and painting it to add a touch of each of the gods, but also because the version of the warp that this rule implies is one I find far more boring than the one that allows for unaligned princes.

 

100% with Mal on this one, it isnt codex ruining but certainly a 9.5 on the Irksom factor. I keep trying to write up a Prince, then I get to the part where I have to dedicate him and I end up just tossing it out the window.

[Legatus]

I finally had a chance to look through the Codex, and I can echo what others have previously said: This is basically a cosmetic overhaul of the 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines. Cheaper point costs for a lot of the units, proper Marks, and of course the new model kits.

 

What disappoints me most is that Berserkers got the shaft. Loosing their trademark extra attack hurts, and once again Plague Marines will be the more competent close combat unit. Ah, well. There is allways hope for the next Codex. After the disasterous 5th Edition, that's kind of the only thing keeping me going. The Codex Chaos Space Marines is not a good start. The presentation was not really that impressive either.

[Paradigm]

You know, as much as I dislike this codex, its not a bad one. I just don't really care for it. The more I dig in and start playing with possible builds the more I can see their thought process and I understand what they were trying to do. It just happens to be so far from the chaos I know. The real killer for me is the prevention of taking icons on undivided units. That should've been a no brainer, but they dropped the ball. It would have turned an interesting codex into an amazing one. The daemon prince mark thing is annoying as well. I really hope they faq those two things, as they are neither game breaking or unreasonable, though I won't hold my breath. Maybe I'll email GW.

[Lord Asvaldir]

The only thing I dislike about the new book a lot is that an all Tzeentch army isn't really a viable option anymore. The Tzeentch lore sucks in comparison to Nurgle and Slaanesh (stupid becasue Tzeentch is the god of magic...), the MoT is a waste of points on squads that don't already have a invul save, and thousand sons are only good against high armor armies...agaisnt hordes they are useless and are pretty expensive.

[alphariusomegon20]

in no particular order...

 

• Chosen losing infiltrate
  
• no real flavour for Alpha Legion
  
• no Drop Pod
  

 

Personally I see these 3 as the biggest loss, and the first 2 effect my army personally.Because of the infiltrate loss to Chosen, I had a 7K army invalidated overnight. (It was playing AL and was very Chosen heavy, because of the infiltrate.) Because of this cock up, I have to now switch to another army, and retire the AL permanently, which is why you see me wearing the Word Bearers colors now.

 

To those mentioning the Termie weapons issues, don't rip your arms off yet. GW admitted on their Facebook page that that was a screw up and they never intended to change the Termies' weapons trade outs. Expect an errata soon.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Okay, here's my B**** List thus far -

 

Terminator weapon selection is derpy to the extreme. It's like they went out of their way to ensure we can't get anywhere near as effective as Assault Terminators or bog-standard Terminators, but are instead shoehorned into lesser versions of either no matter which way we jump.

 

I've already griped about Mark-less Helbrutes.

 

No Veteran skills whatsoever that aren't attached to some special character. Chosen lose Outflank. Thanks for making them absolutely worse than Sternguard.

 

Warp Talon special trick isn't all that great, and their lack of grenades is a real damper on what could have been a nasty rival to Vanguard. I don't see an effective way to use these guys without a 12-step program of synergy to maximize their being taken at all. Raptors are just flat-out better but still can't measure up to Vanguard. Maybe a combination of both can work, but then you run into having to have the Raptors already in position before the Blind effect comes into play from the Warp Talon arrival, and it's not even a guaranteed effect.

 

Mutilators: cute notion until you hit the S&P problem. Even dumping them in a Land Raider kind of messes up their mojo.

 

The reaper autocannon should be Skyfire on everything that can take them automatically. That would make it something beefier to compete with the Assault Cannon. There is a severe lack of AA in this Codex, and Allies will only go so far.

 

Dark Apostles can't take a Steed. That means no makeshift Jaruleks. Boo to that.

 

Warpsmith can't get freaky Servitors to help him with his half-rate Repair ability. Also, no power fist attacks.

 

Noise Marine sonic blasters needed Salvo like they needed Gets Hot. . .not at all. Confusion reigns as high I models are trapped as ranged combat models. What a waste.

 

Thousand Sons are still basically boned in the antitank department.

 

Daemon Princes turned into basically one-trick ponies with Mark-enforcement. The unwelcome points upgrades to buy stuff they should have already had is going to make a lot of folks pause at taking one. Looks like this is the edition of the Lords.

 

Not seeing anywhere that Icons mean stable Deep Strike points. The daemonbomb may have just passed into the mists of extinction.

 

No more CC Defiler, unless you want to throw down with the power scourge/power fist combo. Vehicle upgrades sort of help out, though the price hike is sort of sour.

 

Still no PotMS for our vehicles.

[Circus Nurgling]

Heldrake: it's a flying daemon engine, meant to take out other fliers (if we're to believe the fluff entry) except that it doesn't really pose a threat to other fliers at all...

 

No marks on Helbrutes... dissapointed but not upset.

 

I was expecting some daemonic equivalent to PotMS on vehicles.

 

:) happened to the icons? My daemon allies (which weren't strong to begin with) just got a kick to the nutz. I could take a Dimensional Key, but it's worded so that it only affects units from this codex, so it doesn't affect daemons? What am I supposed to do with that?

 

Daemon Princes not viable below 2k.

 

Cool new HQ options. Extremely limited by their options.

 

No new vehicles. What? With all the weird new HH stuff coming out you couldn't throw a bone our way? I would've bought 2 kits of a plastic Hellblade. No LR variant either...

[Sception]

The main disappointment for me is that there are just so many units that it seems the designers were afraid might actually be too good, so instead to be "safe" they let them just be mediocre, either with special rules that don't do anything or absurdly prohibitive points costs or both. Apostles, Warpsmiths, Chosen, Mutilators, Thousand Sons, Warp Talons, new daemon engines.... There's just a long list of units that competitive players just shouldn't take because their points are way too high and their special rules don't do anything. Or units like Berzerkers or Noise Marines or so on that might be ok, but that seem to have had a lot of the 'wow' factor stripped out of them by moves like trading an attack for rage & counterattack, or putting salvo weapons on Init 5 troopers.

 

I wish the writers had instead erred on the side of just letting us have cool things that we could actually be excited about, like they've been doing with every other book for the past few years. I play Vamp Counts in fantasy, and as I went through their new book, I knew the designers had played it conservative with the overall power level. I wasn't going to be blowing anybody out of the water with them, and if anything they were a step down from their previous book, which had already taking a serious hit from the 8e rules. However, the stuff that was supposed to be awesome was allowed to be awesome! Vampire Lords, Terrorgheists, Mortis Engines, Crypt Horrors, Black Knights, Hexwraiths, Cairne Wraiths, bubble castings of invocation... these things were allowed to be dramatic and awe inspiring on the table and they managed it without going outside of the overall powerlevel set by the books before it.

 

Chaos... just didn't. The codex is simply lacking in 'wow factor' rules to match the new models. Almost everything that could be cool has to have a heap of mitigating factors piled on it to strip away any excitement and then is slapped with a prohibitive points cost to make you want to just give up on it.

 

 

Further, the more I work with this book, the more it seems to be suffering pretty badly from a situation of half the units just being blatantly and objectively better then the other half in their slots. Not that that's anything new, really. It isn't worse than our old book that way. At least there's cultists and a few more CSM builds to work with in troops.

 

 

And then there's the fact that we're the 'close combat' specialist space marines ... except we're not because wolves and blood angels still do that better than us, and even vanguard vets and assault terminators in the basic space marine book blow our equivalent assault specialists out of the water. We have a bunch of assault specialists that aren't particularly great in close combat, cost an arm and a leg, and on top of all the rest lack grenades. Our characters are forced into challenges despite, on average, not being any better at them than anybody else's characters. We've got several assault specialists without any reliable way of getting to grips with the enemy, and some can't even shoot on the way in.

 

So we're not even that great at our supposed area of expertise, and that's before you get to the fact that 6e as a whole really discourages close combat to begin with - making us lackluster at our supposed specialty, which in turn is a poor choice of specialty even if we were good at it.

 

 

I thought I had lowered my expectations enough for this book, but apparently not, because my disappointment grows daily. It's better than the 4e book, but dammit that is too low a bar to set and pretend everything's great. Just being better than that garbage is not good enough.

[Dallas Drake]

Heldrake: it's a flying daemon engine, meant to take out other fliers (if we're to believe the fluff entry) except that it doesn't really pose a threat to other fliers at all...

 

I agree with you on everything except the Helldrake.

 

D3+1 HITS at S7 with Daemonforge for a re-roll, all on side armour? Maybe not a massive threat to a Storm Raven but most fliers are AV10 or 11 on the side. Plus it can Vector Strike tanks side armour too (think of IG - most non Leman Russ side armour is 10). If there are no fliers in your opponents army then no probs, it can hit anything you want, say an MC if Nids turn up. Give it a Baleflamer & it can remove Long Fangs or any 3+ save models with ease.

 

I used to think it was crap but after thinking about it this isn't too bad, not cheese just balanced. Plus don't forget it has a 5++ without having to jink & Daemonic Possession for a handy 2+ ignore Shaken/Stunned!

 

Dallas

[the jeske]

The main disappointment for me is that there are just so many units that it seems the designers were afraid might actually be too good, so instead to be "safe" they let them just be mediocre, either with special rules that don't do anything or absurdly prohibitive points costs or both.

imagine darky and forgy in elite slot. helldrake at bs2 , but bs4 against other flyers.

 

 

I thought I had lowered my expectations enough for this book, but apparently not, because my disappointment grows daily. It's better than the 4e book, but dammit that is too low a bar to set and pretend everything's great. Just being better than that garbage is not good enough.

what ever you do mali . do not read the 3.5 and then the new dex.

[Circus Nurgling]

Heldrake: it's a flying daemon engine, meant to take out other fliers (if we're to believe the fluff entry) except that it doesn't really pose a threat to other fliers at all...

 

I agree with you on everything except the Helldrake.

 

D3+1 HITS at S7 with Daemonforge for a re-roll, all on side armour? Maybe not a massive threat to a Storm Raven but most fliers are AV10 or 11 on the side. Plus it can Vector Strike tanks side armour too (think of IG - most non Leman Russ side armour is 10). If there are no fliers in your opponents army then no probs, it can hit anything you want, say an MC if Nids turn up. Give it a Baleflamer & it can remove Long Fangs or any 3+ save models with ease.

 

I used to think it was crap but after thinking about it this isn't too bad, not cheese just balanced. Plus don't forget it has a 5++ without having to jink & Daemonic Possession for a handy 2+ ignore Shaken/Stunned!

 

Dallas

 

Hmm, well maybe I'll take a second look at it. I do have 2 ideas for the inclusion of fliers into my army (neither of which involves the hell-turkey kit).

[Ju'kosian]

I'm still reading into it.

things I've noticed so far,

pro :

- warpsmiths

- dark apostles

- more daemonengines

- cultists

- marks instead of icons.

 

negative ones :

is it me, or did or bezerkers just lose 1 attack ?

normal chaos marines suddenly lost the abiltiy to carry bolter, pistol and ccw

Warpsmith not having something similair to the servoharness.. we used to have servo arms...

No new transports..

mutialtors ?? I really can't see the point in taking these...

The flyer.. supposed to be anti flyer.. but.. euhrm I think it's kinda weak in that department..

 

 

But I'm still glad I can go fluffy again and take legions like I used too :-)

[Sception]

The thing is, the 3.5 book isn't even what I want. It was awkward and overcomplicated and way overpowered. But at least it wasn't afraid to let players have cool things.

 

What I mostly wanted was a chaos book on the level of the dark eldar codex. Not as ridiculously overpowered as the grey knight and necron books, but a book with respectable balance full of cool units, interesting options, and special rules designed to make them feel awesome on the table.