the jeske Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 mali the chaos codex technicly is like the DE one . the problem is then when people still play mostly under 2k games[there are only 2 armies now that realy want to play 2k . chaos and tyranids] , the codex does feel like you said . boring with few build options [comparing to stuff like GK/necron/sw dex] , where yes we buy other stuff then in gav dex , but we have to spam it the same way . I would love to play fiends , if picking them would mean getting owned by flyer armies. I have come to a point when I think it is better[even if more random] to playa demon list with 4-5 flyers , then a chaos army with 4-5 vehicles . all we can hope is that a sm dex comes fast and that games will move to 2k pts , otherwise this dex will get stale very fast. I remember gav dex start . it was the same , tons of people thought it was an awesome dex. we had like 60+pages debates if it gives more options [and 5th history proved my camp to be right] . I mean what are we going to do , if the next sm dex has 2 flyers one in hvy one in fast , both more economical then the drake ? what if is closely follwed by an eldar or tau one with 2 flyers too ? it is not a good thing to be the first dex in an edition . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3204976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possessed Marine Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 There's only one thing that I don't like about the codex... I have to rip the arms off my terminators now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3204999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Heldrake: it's a flying daemon engine, meant to take out other fliers (if we're to believe the fluff entry) except that it doesn't really pose a threat to other fliers at all... I agree with you on everything except the Helldrake. D3+1 HITS at S7 with Daemonforge for a re-roll, all on side armour? Maybe not a massive threat to a Storm Raven but most fliers are AV10 or 11 on the side. Plus it can Vector Strike tanks side armour too (think of IG - most non Leman Russ side armour is 10). If there are no fliers in your opponents army then no probs, it can hit anything you want, say an MC if Nids turn up. Give it a Baleflamer & it can remove Long Fangs or any 3+ save models with ease. I used to think it was crap but after thinking about it this isn't too bad, not cheese just balanced. Plus don't forget it has a 5++ without having to jink & Daemonic Possession for a handy 2+ ignore Shaken/Stunned! Dallas Hmm, well maybe I'll take a second look at it. I do have 2 ideas for the inclusion of fliers into my army (neither of which involves the hell-turkey kit). I've seen people using Hellblades... Personally the Helldrake isn't too bad when you see it on the table, the pictures make it look... silly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3205015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I'm not really happy about the new dex but it's better than the old one so I'm going to shut my trap for awhile. I can see it going the same way as the Gav dex though, as the newer codex books get stronger and stronger we get weaker and whine more. We'll see though how it turns out with the other 6th books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3205035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circus Nurgling Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Heldrake: it's a flying daemon engine, meant to take out other fliers (if we're to believe the fluff entry) except that it doesn't really pose a threat to other fliers at all... I agree with you on everything except the Helldrake. D3+1 HITS at S7 with Daemonforge for a re-roll, all on side armour? Maybe not a massive threat to a Storm Raven but most fliers are AV10 or 11 on the side. Plus it can Vector Strike tanks side armour too (think of IG - most non Leman Russ side armour is 10). If there are no fliers in your opponents army then no probs, it can hit anything you want, say an MC if Nids turn up. Give it a Baleflamer & it can remove Long Fangs or any 3+ save models with ease. I used to think it was crap but after thinking about it this isn't too bad, not cheese just balanced. Plus don't forget it has a 5++ without having to jink & Daemonic Possession for a handy 2+ ignore Shaken/Stunned! Dallas Hmm, well maybe I'll take a second look at it. I do have 2 ideas for the inclusion of fliers into my army (neither of which involves the hell-turkey kit). I've seen people using Hellblades... Personally the Helldrake isn't too bad when you see it on the table, the pictures make it look... silly. That'd be idea #1. The other idea is a bit more involved :P. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3205048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctus Cornix Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I'm not even going to bother... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3205068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I don't mind it ... thus far. I think it has to be better than the last one! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3205326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimerical Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Even though the last one was disappointing in terms of theme, it was actually pretty powerful in the environment it came into, and that lasted, I would say, until the Space Wolves turned up en masse. What worries me is that this one isn't on par with a number of existing and common armies. We know how GW is with the design cycle, they think 'oh we made these guys too strong (Space Wolves) so we need to make these guys that strong as well (Blood Angels). Oops, they didn't turn out quite as strong, so we'll make these guys a bit stronger still (Grey Knights). Oh, everything has gotten out of hand now, we'd better tone it down a bit (CSMs)'. I wonder how Dark Angels will turn out? After years of both CSMs and DAs having the blandest codices around, it would be sadly ironic if they both get the same treatment again just because GW decided arbitrarily to reverse the power-creep trend once more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3205375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallenOne Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 There's only one thing that I don't like about the codex... I have to rip the arms off my terminators now. Don't do that yet. Several websites are posting that the official GW facebook page stated that it will be erratted to make this right. I can't find said post on facebook, it has been taken down. Just wait that one out... This would cost GW a lot of sales, and even the box art would need to be changed, as it shows a combi + Power fist on it also. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3205402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallenOne Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 For me, the worse is the champion of chaos thing and the really pathetic gear. Our characters have to challenge everything, but any commander/captain/warlord will murder our characters. Space Marines have 2+ saves, so we must use a prince, but they cost way way way too much, or a lord with a murder sword. Hive tyrants have a lash whip, and we will be challenging them, to have an iniative of 1, and getting splattered on charging in. Dark Eldar are all faster, have plenty of poisoned power weapon goodness. With no chaos armor, we are forced to take terminator armor. Our lords can no longer take psycher levels, forcing us to take a psycher. Princes will be bogged down in a series of constant challenges by any sergeant to each squad they fight. They will be perma-tarpitted. Lords have nothing that make them close to a plague marine lord, or noise marine noise commander, etc... A mark of a god doesn't make you a berzerker. Why can't these lords get the cult equipment? Why are tzeetch psychers the weakest? Why do berzerkers have the same number attacks as a tactical marine? Salvo noise marines, awesome, so the I5 is pointless. No unmarked princes, you say?. Princes are not marked at all, they don't have marks period. A DP of Nurgle has the same stats as a DP of Slaanesh, ridiculous. LD 9 Prince... The same as any VoTLW CSM. You are a lord, ascend to Prince, you suddenly become more cowardly, and able to break. Obliterators now run and hide. Small squad sizes, plus no fearless, look for broken Obliterators. This codex is weak. It's better than 5th, but then again, only Tyranids are worse. It's a shame that GK, SW and BA make better chaos marnies than this codex makes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3205411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 LD 9 Prince... The same as any VoTLW CSM. You are a lord, ascend to Prince, you suddenly become more cowardly, and able to break. Daemon Princes are fearless. Also they have VotLW standard which makes them LD10 anyway so I don't see the big deal. Also, while salvo noise weapons is kind of a downer overall I think that Slaanesh is the strongest cult now. Well, maybe Nurgle still beats it at the uber metagamey level but for casual play Slaanesh seems really nasty and relatively easy to use unlike Nurgle which is comparatively tricky to get the most out of. Oh and no DE player plays CC anymore so them being faster won't really matter per se. Overwatch killed what few DE players played CC armies (like me) so now it's 100% venoms full of trueborn and a raider with splinter racks and Sliscus. If you actually manage to shoot down the paper airplanes and charge them their I5 won't really help. That said, this codex is still not that great, mostly because of just how much it borrows from the Gavdex which should have been disregarded entirely as the travesty that it was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3205578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallenOne Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Uh, the LD is 9, that's with VoTLW. You are right, they are fearless, that was poory worded. The point still stands, they are less authoratative and confident than a lord. Sad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3205604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Oh, yeah I just checked that and it does say that under the rule entry. Oh well it's still not very relevant except for Mind War and some other things I'm sure I'm forgetting but for the most part it shouldn't matter. As for them being less authoritative than a lord that is probably by design to ensure that lords are always the warlord when present to represent them as movers and shakers behind actual raids whereas daemon princes kind of hang out in the warp and tag along for one reason or another but dawdle enough in mortal affairs to organize attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3205615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal.Lictor Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 There are some good things in there and I think people will be able to sift through and find some competitive lists. That being said a good 60 percent of the book is garbage, redundant units just as mediocre as the unit they are mirroring somewhere else in the dex. The stars in my mind of dissapointment: Fiends....AV12 nuff said. Hellbrutes....where are my marks? AV12 Cult Terminators....ya Mutilators, even if the models didnt look like your poor retarded cousin in a bad costume, no one is gonna use these more than once. NM...salvo. Phil, seriously, did you think that one through? How about Sonics Assault 2 ignores cover 18 inches. Or let me take more DS, like one for ever 5 dudes. 1k...only see those guys in the store Helldrake...AA? Uh no. How about Vector Strike S7 or S9 vs fliers. Ok, done. CHosen with dual lightining claws 48 points, termie with dual lightingin claws 38....math anyone? Then there is the thoughtlessness in some of our rules. No EW for DPs. S and P on oblits and mutilators...thanks. I mean there are some cool things in there, like run 20 NM with CCW and Pistol for 17 points a guy and take an icon with a Steeded Lord. Ill let you do the math but holy molie, thats alot of dice. MoN oblits are sweet. I can run a 5 man chosen with 4 PGs and an asscan. Black mace...Love that, but why not a more extensive list and why is everything Khorne or Tzeech? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3205626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 - Ahriman is overpriced and doesn't have Divination or a 3+ invul (the latter can be taken on a generic Sorceror) - Typhus has I1, que - Lucius remains terrible, three editions now - Fabius got more useless, he now only buffs a single squad - Princes don't have Eternal Warrior, full retard - Dark Apostle is stuck with power maul, although you can replace with Blind Axe so... - Warpsmith should've been an Elites 1-3 choice, makes no sense as a HQ - Paying points for a melee weapon on Chaos Marines, hurr durr - Cultists have no options (flamers and stubbers don't count) - Cultists can't take a transport - Chosen lost Infiltrate, for no discernable reason - Possessed are terrible, three editions now - Terminators have to choose between combi-weapons or melee upgrades, hurr durr - Helbrute is terrible - Mutilators are terrible and Finecast - Khornate Marines > Khorne Beserkers - Thousand Sons are terrible, two editions now - Noise Marines are overpriced...salvo weapons, shucks - Warp Talons...cool story bro - Heldrake has no melee attacks, just a meh Vector Strike - Defiler is redundant because Forgefiend - Chaos tanks remain underwhelming, three editions now - Tzeentch is the worst psychic Discipine...what the hell GW? Short list, I like/am content with everything else. Phil Kelly is the hero we deserve and got. Gav can die in the darkest fires for the previous abomination we had to endure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3205747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I consider the DP without EW and oblits Ld8/not fearless a violation of the pact. would have really wished for ubergrit at +1pt for CSM, forgefiends at 150pts base and magma-cutters on the warpsmith. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3205758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boshea Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I think its a good book but I just really hate that when you get down to it, its just the last book with new paint. It doesn't help that the book probably won't shine until other marine books are done in a similar way. Its true that our marines are cheaper, but we still pay more for special weapons working out to about 15 point difference on the average tact squad. So 15 points gets you combat tactics, ATSKNF, and combat squad. Space Wolves still just blow us out of the water for point efficiency. Also still irritated that they want to keep pushing the non-legion traitor armies, but won't give us any post-heresy tech to show for it. The change to MoK also miffs me since Rage just makes it suicide to assault anything with defensive grenades, makes disordered charge an even worse idea, and that is all on top of assault just being way more risky in general now. I think the book is good but it still gets out done by every 5th marine book due to the power creep that occurred with them. Until other books come out though I can't make the call if the book is weak on its own, or if its because of the other books just do it better still. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3209381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Look at the lore of Tzeentch, that's effectively made Tzeentch psykers the worst and effectively a level lower then anyone else (yes, I would say lore of Tzeentch is that bad) All our long range support being in HS is a problem as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3209980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 - Ahriman is overpriced and doesn't have Divination or a 3+ invul (the latter can be taken on a generic Sorceror)- Typhus has I1, que - Lucius remains terrible, three editions now - Fabius got more useless, he now only buffs a single squad - Princes don't have Eternal Warrior, full retard - Dark Apostle is stuck with power maul, although you can replace with Blind Axe so... - Warpsmith should've been an Elites 1-3 choice, makes no sense as a HQ - Paying points for a melee weapon on Chaos Marines, hurr durr - Cultists have no options (flamers and stubbers don't count) - Cultists can't take a transport - Chosen lost Infiltrate, for no discernable reason - Possessed are terrible, three editions now - Terminators have to choose between combi-weapons or melee upgrades, hurr durr - Helbrute is terrible - Mutilators are terrible and Finecast - Khornate Marines > Khorne Beserkers - Thousand Sons are terrible, two editions now - Noise Marines are overpriced...salvo weapons, shucks - Warp Talons...cool story bro - Heldrake has no melee attacks, just a meh Vector Strike - Defiler is redundant because Forgefiend - Chaos tanks remain underwhelming, three editions now - Tzeentch is the worst psychic Discipine...what the hell GW? Lucius is a bit better and he gets the shred rule. The Heldrake is better this way, he makes 1D3+1 Autohits, wich is better then melee attacks who can be missed. Defiler redundant?, really?, the Forge fiend is 8 S8 shots in dakka mode, and while in Plasma mode he as three pies, he gets hot. The defiler is the only walker of the game to have a mountend Battlecannon, wich is not something laughable, the only qualm i have with the Defiler is that you can't give him 4 CCW's for free as before, you have to pay for the Powerscourge, and 25pts at that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3210088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Well most of my complaints center more on whats not there rather then what is. For whats in the codex I think all of the units are useful with the exception of the warp talons. Great models with pointless flat rules. That said if they and the Raptors had been given Jet pack instead of jump packs (fluff did say they'd archived true flight) that might have changed the game for them. I have also wrestled with whether or not it would have been better is 'Veterans Of The Long War' would have actually granted the extra attack real vets have. I'm leaning heavily toward yes. Now for what you didn't get. Well I think its within reason to have expected some new Predator and Land Raider variants. Chaos' armor forces feel almost like an afterthought in the face of the new Demon Engines. Speaking of Demon Engines wouldn't have been nice to see a Land Speeder based Demon Engine to throw a bone to all those renegade chapters they seam to be pushing. And Drop pods; what a choas army got to do just to fill out the capabilities listed in the Basic fluff? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3210474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 dark apostles should get fleet so they gel better with possessed. possessed are over priced and need grenades and probably should of just had the mutilator rule rather then inventing mutilators. some form of drop pod would solve alot of problems. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3210498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 What would be the problem with it anyway? They are able to morph into weaponry. Heck if for some reason they decided he could use a Kai gun, he could use a Kai gun.A true Chaos Legionair should not mind the mutation and seek reason behind it. This is Chaos energy, not reason Loyalist tools. Unfortunately that logic cuts both ways. If an entity can morph a solid-shot weapon system out of itself, then in effect expenditure of ammunition would be it literally shooting pieces of itself into its target, which it doesn't take damage from even though by all rights it ought to be because, well, it just shot its technoviral spleen out of the hole that used to be its hand. On the converse, an entity with the ability to morph energy weapons likely wouldn't morph one that could potentially harm itself, so why then is Obliterator plasma subject to Gets Hot? Oblits are all kinds of senseless, we're just expected to roll with it no matter if it's senseless-good or senseless-bad. That such antics are the sign of weak minds at the design stage doesn't seem to register. Why have no physicists stepped in? Ok the Chemist will do his job :lol: Matter is Mass, and Mass IS Energy. Ever heard of E=MC2? :D C'mon, Einstein everybody! If the Warp can manifest Energy, then it can manifest Mass. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3210672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I don't like the fact the book isn't competitive due to the costings in there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3210718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 realy? the costing for a compatitive army are just fine , the list would work a lot better if it could take 4 HQs , but that can be done with playing 2k pts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3210722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshed Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 So I've sat back and watched everyone sit down with their glass of Hateorade and go to town with our new dex. Some have been swayed by the various new shiny things, others still hate it. However since we have a thread mostly about the hate towards our newest codex (lets face it all armies will really have that in some way, shape or form) I'd like to introduce the thread of what we like, in comparison to our old codex that has given us our itch back. +Disclaimer, I'll toss in some of the things I do not like at the bottom of this to balance this out+ So lets go back into our time machine of Tzeenitchian power and look at our previous dex's +3.5+ Praise the dark lords! This book was a beauty and the one that I officially started playing chaos on. We had some really solid units, rules for our beloved legions, options so that we didn't have to play legions (as in, don't take the damn thing to begin with) and a competitive edge to it that had many hate us. But lets face it, while the dex was great for us it really got repetitive in a lot of tournament scenes with the always favorite demon bomb, oblits-pie-o-death, and other lists that were really considered mainstay by quite a few people. So we have a great dex a new edition on the way with promises of new shiny things and a new way of doing things. Lets fast forward.... +4.0+ When it came out I was saddened by my lost of my beloved legion. My heart ached for my Iron Warriors to once again be able to march to their old tune. But I gave in. We were promised that this was how GW was going to do this latest edition, that all of the books would be similar to how our dex was made. But alas, with the new Space Marine books that came out our trust was broken and my heart truly broke and was gobbled up by the gods of the warp and forsaken to live out in its depths as a mindless daemon. I was still playing a little bit and APOC really let me throw out my army and have some fun but alas....*sigh* I had thought my days were numbered. +A small fast forward to 5th editon+ HA. That was cute. +A small fast forward to the present+ My barely beating heart sang with the joy of getting a new codex. Could it be that GW could possibly redeem itself? Could the dex lurch that was happening to all the other dex's put us ahead or more to par with their fluff, models and general lists? With a resounding roar of approval I voiced my praise to the dark gods, each of them in turn. Looking back at our last dex I couldn't help but sing my praise. You mean I have rules now for playing Legions (small as they may be)?! I have new units to play with!? I have a mutations chart!? The hatred between the gods is back!? We have some nice tasty new units such as the Helldrake, the Forge/Maulerfiend, Mutilators, Cultists, Warpsmith, Warp Talons and Dark Apostle yet it still has the feel of before, back to the good old days. Sure there aren't any special rules for our legions but who cares? This book is by far exponentially better then the last one and I for one am grateful we can put that painful past behind us. I can field my Iron Warriors once again and not feel like I need to take some of Slaanesh's special pills to perform on the table, instead I can bring the guns to bear upon my enemies and reap the souls for the dark gods. How many years have we been yearning for cultists? How many years have we always wondered what we could cobble together to make a flyer? How many years have we wanted new daemon engines? How many years have we been wanting better daemon weapons, better bikers, better raptors, all of this? I tip my warp corrupt skull towards you GW for giving me back my faith. Because looking back this dex is far better then what we had. ++Disclaimer++ I was very disappointed with the abundance of spell and grammar errors within the new book, not to mention some of the lack luster of some of the entries. This is not a perfect dex and I am in no way, shape or form saying that this is a divine book, but that this is simply better then what we had before, they could have done better but its GW and at the end of the day they never come out with anything perfect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262584-dissapointments-with-the-new-codex/page/7/#findComment-3210734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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