Urauloth Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 This is honestly my favourite codex to date. Sure, there are things about 3.5 that I miss, but this one is much better balanced, full of flavour and generally a great toolkit for making a fluffy, narrative-driven force that won't perform apallingly on the tabletop. Do I have a few minor complaints about it? Yes. Am I going to shelve those complaints and enjoy finally having a decent codex after all these years? You bet. And really, there are way, way more things to be happy about than there are gripes, even if I try to look at it pessimistically. Sure, it isn't a cheesepile of gimmicks like the GK codex is, but I never wanted that. I hope this is the way new 'dexes are going. Sure as hell could use a spellchecker and a FAQ, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attomsk Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I honestly think this codex/release was rushed or just half assed overall. That being said... Things I am excited about: -Khorne lords on juggernauts with the blind fury axe -Dragons (yes I think they are awesome) -Bikers -Plague zombies if they get FAQ'd to be bigger than 10 -Spawn Things I am dissapointed with: -Forge Fiends -Mutliators -Warp Talons -Daemon Prince -posessed -khorne berserkers -Defiler <- give me 150pt defilers back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshed Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Like I said in my disclaimer, this isn't a perfect dex. But its something. Something is better then what we had that rekindled my love for my Iron Warriors and all things chaos even more. I'm sure there are people that have already sat down and mathhammered the living snot out of this and can provide the statistics on everything but my love for GW and chaos was never about the tournament. My love was for the army, the looks, feel and fluff but something that could perform decently in a friendly battle or a tournament every once in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Over here!. There are also several relatively neutral threads, that look at positives and negatives from a relatively dispassionate viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 They are overpriced at the regular tournamnt size of 1500-1750. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Chaos was my first army, which I started collecting back in 2001. Back then we had the true third edition book. :) I'll admit to having a soft spot for the 3.5 'dex, with Khornate Chainaxes, elite Oblits, veteran abilities, a ridiculous Chosen unit, separate (albeit limited) rules for the 9 legions, and the best armoury the game has ever seen. :) The 4th ed codex had a couple fun units (I really did like Berzerkers with Furious Charge, when that meant +1 I as well as A), but it just lost so much of the flavor that made the previous editions of Chaos fun. What I see with this new dex is a return to the flavor of chaos. We will never get back the ridiculous amount of options from the 3.5 dex, but that's not necessary a bad thing (I certainly remember getting headaches from trying to construct a legal daemon prince by referencing 4 different parts of the book). However, GW has brought back cult units as elites, only unlockable as Troops with an appropriate lord (and thank the Gods it doesn't have to be a special character!). They've also brought back the animosity between the gods. We have better Warpsmiths than we ever had under the 3.5 dex ("oh, I can take a 30pt 1-attack power fist? gee, thanks") and a proper entry for the Dark Apostle. The allies rules give us access to a greater variety of daemons than ever before, and if you want the majority of your list to be daemons, just make that your primary detachment and ally-in chaos. The Chaos Boon table is genius, and with almost no bad options (apart from the hilarity that is spawnhood), I think it will see a lot of use. Personally, I love the look of the new daemon engines (apart from the Heldrake), and I look forward to trying out my new forge/maulerfiend. Also, appearance aside, I really like the concept behind the Heldrake, and I think it'll be a ton of fun to play with. I was relieved to finally see affordable bikers, raptors, and havocs along with dirt cheap marines. Overall, I think the book gives us tons of very colorful and unique options, with enough of a power balance to encourage lots of different lists. I think the big losers are really the cult troops. They all have their own unique flavor still, possibly moreso than before, but I just feel like they aren't worth their points in the new dex. Only time will tell. I also would have liked to see marks on the Helbrutes. Other than that, I think a few things are over-costed, but without playtesting that's harder to judge, and doesn't really bear on the flavor of the army. I think the most telling thing I can say is that, when I read the codex, I thought, "Now this is an army I can have fun playing!" Power level be damned, that's what I'm here for! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Purple Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Begin rant.... I bet when the new marine codex comes out, tactical marines are like 14 pts with free weapon options still, bikes are 18 pts each, and assaults are 16. They'll probably get 2 pages of war gear too, with artificer armour, AP2 relic weapons that strike at I and a bunch of other crap. Maybe even a new army-wide special rule. Strategically, us chaos players should stop whining and all act like this is the best codex ever written. Then maybe GW will get duped into duplicating its bland, mediocre-unit filled style with their other armies, instead of realizing that players hate it when their new dex falls flat on the power/flavour spectrum and starting the creep again when they get to the really popular armies (like marines). Just like last edition. New codex? More like gavdex with a couple new units stapled on the back and some white-out on points costs. No 'legion tactics' or cult lords / terminators? How hard would this have been? Seriously, some loyalist armies have 3 entries just for their land raiders and we can't get a few other unit entries in the list for cult units? It would have been as easy as trying to hit the eye of terror with a guided torpedo. It's like Phil took the complaints about Gav's codex as suggestions for his. This codex is even more disappointing than Gav's codex because the gripes many players had were so obvious and the opportunity to fix them was missed. Chaos marines are so prideful and glory seeking, that they cannot refuse challenges and have to issue them (one would think lack of ATSKNF would imply, I dunno, maybe a bit cowardly or into self-preservation?), but can flee like little girls if they lose a few guys in an assault or to shooting, and brother bob with the fancy icon stick got precisioned out? Really? Wouldn't the Chaos gods look down on this even more? How bout some consistency? We get the joy of waiting for a codex that doesn't suck for another edition. The long war never changes... At least with WD updates, we can hold on to some hope that a WD update in the future might get us some interesting units and bring back some legion rules, chapter approved style. ...end rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 How many years have we been yearning for cultists? non . point for point they are good only as bubble wraps and a lot of armies wont find pts to run them or have a csm camper . How many years have we always wondered what we could cobble together to make a flyer? a bad flyer is no flyer.Even the FW ones are better and that is counting that you wont get to use them sometimes. How many years have we wanted new daemon engines? out of 3 we have 2 are bad [mauler/defiler] and one is situational at best . How many years have we been wanting better daemon weapons, better bikers, better raptors, all of this? you know replacing one demon weapon with another isnt much of a game play change . a jugger lord works just like a warp time DP in 5th . also better doesnt mean good . yes spawn got better , raptors not realy ,bikes beat them all because of drastic points change , but we wouldnt be using them if it wasnt for the fact that our armies lack anti av13-14 and bodyguard units for lords [somethind DPs never needed] . So this is not a situation of I take bikes because I like them . But I take lords because I have to . Remember oblits and DPs and pms in 5th ? that was "I have to" too. I tip my warp corrupt skull towards you GW for giving me back my faith. Because looking back this dex is far better then what we had and if we had a codex and everyone else would have to play a WD transition list , 3ed start style , it would be awesome. Only necrons/SW/IG are the way they are and wont be changed for years . Actualy it is a bit loltastic because if a chaos army looks like this at 1500 2HQs lord/sorc/huron 3csm 2havocks 1-2bikers aegis then a sw army can be RP/Lord , GH , 2LF , IG ally to get superior flyers . same points army at least just as good . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Whoah, how did the positive reactions thread get combined with this one? :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torva Minoris Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Don't know if this was raised somewhere else, haven't read all 8 pages. That a daemon prince of Tzeentch can only have a 5++ save when a thousand son marine has 4++ and a terminator lord can have 3++. it doesn't make sense!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 If it's Tzeentch, GW will make it suck and it will not make sense from any point of veiw... I sound like an Iron warrior don't I? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Actualy it is a bit loltastic because if a chaos army looks like this at 1500 2HQs lord/sorc/huron 3csm 2havocks 1-2bikers aegis then a sw army can be RP/Lord , GH , 2LF , IG ally to get superior flyers . same points army at least just as good . Now you know my point. Sure CSM can have bigger footslogging units and cheaper Havoks. But Rune Priests are better, Long Fangs are more versatile and GHs have Ultra-Grit and Counter Attack for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I dont think its that simple . the difference is sometimes very esoteric . how much is a hidden ax worth in GH units ? is it better to have marked marines or a WG termi leader ? is 3RL/2las or 5 RL better then 4 RL but with flakk ? how do we cost boons . there is too much randoms . I would say that naked[sW alone vs CSM alone] SW are "better" only because people playing them had years to expiriance their footslogger builds and most CSM player didnt . with ally it gets even harder to rate . IG as battlebrothers better then demons or IG as non battlebrother ally ? and we are talking here only about 1 build both csm/sw as slogger meq build , no chaozilla , no TWC builds , no 5th ed MSU or RP spams[njal+orcs played well are a horror to play against] all at under 2k pts . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRCHAOS Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 My opinion.....The codex is rather turd. 1)Where are the new Special Characters, every other codex has had loads more added to them, we are still stuck with the same old. (Plus the same sculpts since the dawn of time) 2)Fluff so the legions get a tiny box of info each woopy doo 3)Time line, again its just the same old nothing new, the Guard and SM one pee all over this 4)Lack of options, these are meant to be Space Marines fighting the long war, where are all the chaotic weapons (Chaos versions of Landraiders, Preds, Dreads, Speeders, Storm shields, special ammo, relic blades 5)Again I could make a more fluffy CHAOS Army out of the current SM/Guard Dex Infact I will stop right there. The Imperial guard and Space Marine Codex to me seem so much better in the info and options in making your army. I don't think there was any effort at all in this, this was there chance to really shine with the Chaos codex, its just a shame that every codex after this one will crush it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 If it's Tzeentch, GW will make it suck and it will not make sense from any point of veiw...I sound like an Iron warrior don't I? :) Wait hold up. Flamers of Tzeentch? Screamers of Tzeentch? CSM Tzeentch IC with Sigil being the only 3++ in the CSM codex? Tzeentch gets a hard shake because Tzeentch Troops are bad and the Tzeentch psychic powers are bad. It has been said in many other places, but GW really missed an opportunity for awesome Tzeentch powers. Why are they all witchfire? IF they wanted to go the witchfire-only direction, why didn't they give the powers much greater range and/or higher strength and/or allow psykers with MoT to be able to use 2 witchfires per turn? Doombolt is a beam with Str8 AP1 but should have had the Lance rule (to match the Blood Angels power). Firestorm should have been StrD3+3 and/or Large Blast and/or 48" and/or AP4 and/or Ignores Cover (at least two of those... any two would have made it more useable). Separate issue, why are all the Primaris powers garbage? Just sad really but hey, at least BA/SW can't pick their best powers ... oh wait. The Tzeentch Primaris Power should have been a copy-paste of Precognition from the BRB Divination table. Fluffy and basically an upgraded version of Warptime, it would have made Tzeentch Characters into ultimate challengers and would provide the missing durability Tzeentch needs compared to Nurgle. A jetbike disk-Sorceror with pseduo-Precogition would have had the option to operate all by himself (re-rollable 3++ save), with mobility allowing him to boost all around and unleash witchfires on the battlefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 1-2 1token witchfire . lance doombolt 2-3 1token warp time . blessing castable on any model within 18" 5-6 2 tokens an pulse pres effect from divination boon as primaris . tzeench mark gives +1inv and sorc can at the begining of their own turn switch one of their powers for a primaris from any basic schools [so no orc/eldar/nid spells]. 1ksons sorc dont roll powers . they have 1 auto cast powers like warlocks. 1ksons rule . any sorc [not asp sorc] with mot can use one of his psy tokens to either boost 1ksons guns range by d6" , boost str by +1 , boost inv by +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I think you guys know that I'm an optimist, sometimes to a fault and so I really try to find the good in stuff. Overall, I'm happy with this codex and I don't mind playing it. My biggest annoyance though isn't with the rules as much as its with the fluff. It feels like they're doing their best to kill off the idea of Chaos Undivided. Our demon princes have to be marked now, 50% of the demon weapons are god-limited and there is this feeling that its a waste to field anything without a mark. I understand that Chaos Undivided is a more difficult concept to wrap your mind around compared to being in league with one of the 4 dark gods but to move the background away from the concept feels too much like they are watering down the idea of Chaos to the point where the only thing in the warp with anything is tied to one of the big 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artemis360 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I hear you, brothers. I waited a long time, now its come, I'm just going to shelve my word bearers and go back to my Dark Eldar. The only way to get past this kind of disappointment is to just shelve that army (and give GW a proper punishment for a crapdex by not buying any more models). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 dont say it is crap .a bit boring , with problems under 2k pts , with fluff some may like , some may dislike ? yes . but crap it is not. But if DE make you happier go for it . much better then playing an army you dislike . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Jeske, you really think the defiler is worse than the forgefiend? It has far better range - providing the chaos army something that they can't get elsewhere, an additional hull point - which matters a lot on a Daemon walker with IWND, better melee abilities if it comes to that, and roughly comparable firepower to a fiend without plasmaface, while costing about the same as a fiend with plasmaface. I'd much rather spend those 20 odd points on an extra hull point rather than an extra ectocannon, and it seems to me that that's basically what the defiler is. I'd understand if you thought they were both bad, or if you thought they were both okayish, or if you thought the defiler was okayish and the fiend was bad, but I'm just not seeing 'defiler bad, fiend okayish'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Well to be fair, the difference between "bad" and "okayish" is vague at best. Anyway I think the main point is that battlecanons aren't really very good in my opinion. S8 AP3 ordnance isn't really very good at killing anything other than MEQ, and the other guns on the defiler are even more meh. Add to that the higher point cost and I just don't think that a defiler will ever kill it's points-worth. A forgefiend on the other hand well might, especially with 2x hades 1x "ectoplasma" (a stupid name if I've ever heard one) given that it has a lot more shots and some at AP2 which is actually good at killing terminators and hades which are better against vehicles than anything on a defiler bar the lascannons that nobody has ever taken in the history of the game. In closing, I actually plan to run 2 forgefiends. ITS MORPHIN TIME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Well to be fair, the difference between "bad" and "okayish" is vague at best. Anyway I think the main point is that battlecanons aren't really very good in my opinion. S8 AP3 ordnance isn't really very good at killing anything other than MEQ, and the other guns on the defiler are even more meh. Hmm I actually came to the opposite conclusion, that battlecannons are pretty awesome in 6th. 1) We no longer have to worry about the stupid 1/2 S shots anymore, so we're always S8. 2) Cover is less powerful now, so we can expect more wounds. 3) 72" range is huge, this isn't so much a change as just a bonus. 4) The shifting from mech to foot sloggers means that blast weapons have more exposed targets to hit. As far as the other weapons, I'm liking the default loadout now. Reaper gives you something to threaten flyers with, since the cannon is useful there and heavy flamer on overwatch duty isn't too shabby at all. Another thing I've looked at is dirge casters. Since the model is so big, it should be able to stop multiple squads from using overwatch in a given turn, so your infantry has more safety when they're assaulting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I agree that it's better. I just thought it was borderline useless before and now it's just mediocre. As for the range, I guess it depends on the size of the table, but I think that 36-48" is just fine on a 6x4 table, 72" is just superfluous. So different strokes I guess, but I'd much rather have a small blast at AP2 than a large blast at AP3, the gap becoming even wider when you consider how much better 2x hades are than a reaper and flamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda_ Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Any ordonnance is the pinacle of sniping. When it lands a "hit", wounds are assigned from the center of the blast. And what happens when the center is a HQ ? They'll have to succeed high number of LoS rolls. What's the same when you target a Comissar, a Icon bearer, and anything that "hides in a squad". Ordonnance is a lot stronger than it was. The Defiler never got a cover save, now with 5+. It's survivability increased of 33%. No wonder where the prize increase of 33% came from. The efficiency bonus is icing of the cake. Appart from bikes and Raptors, the codex didn't change much (it just seems like it has been rebalanced internally), except from the options to vary our lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaguecaster Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 One thing I like more about defiler than forgefiend it is not just a shooting walker if it gets assaulted it will aleast have a chance of surviving give it power scourge and you are laughing yes you have ws4 terminators well now they are WS 1 plus I am addicted to large blast templates I mean who doesn't love them especially when they have a 72 range so you can be further away and still fire at them while the forgefiend's guns have a shorter range 24 and 36 if I remember correctly so have to be closer being in range of most of their anti tank weapons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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