Roboute Guilliman, a traitor?

[TRIBUN]

I have read for a couple of times, mostly in the short-story collection like "the primarchs", about Guilliman making his own heresy against the Emperor to get his own empire of mankind around Maccrage.

 

Who knows more about this? Where can I read more fluff about it? Is my suggestin right?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

oh lord, Leg's head is going to explode...

 

and no, I dont believe Guilliman is a traitor. what Guilliman was planning for was the Imperium's survival after the HH, where the powers that were would be broken down into the powers that be. He does acknowledge that some might see his actions as traitorous to the Imperium, but his goal was saving mankind, not amassing personal power.

 

remember, when he had the power of the Imperium at his control, he created the High Lords to negate that. that action right there should say alot about his desire for ultimate power.

 

WLK

[Febelcrofas]

Guilliman was doing what he was created to do, he assessed the situation and planned accordingly. That was one of his strengths, see the almost mini imperium that is ultramar. He made what he believed to be the best decision tactically for the future of his fathers vision. He knew how he would be viewed but did it anyway because he knew if the emperor prevailed he would understand what he had done and if the emperor failed, well then he did the right thing didn't he.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Read "Age of Darkness" and judge for yourself.

 

Guilliman himself warns his captains that they may be judged as traitors and it is acknowledged that his plan for "Imperium Secundus" was a heretical idea.

 

Surrender of power to the High Lords does sort of vindicate him but I think his decision is still questionable. He chose to focus on maintaining Ultramar and other areas away from Terra instead of reinforcing Terra. Given that the siege of Terra was so close fought and the Ultramarines were the most numerous legion I think that Guilliman could have prevented the death of the Emperor and many of the loyalist forces on Terra, leaving the Imperium stronger but his own personal power and historical significance reduced.

 

"He does acknowledge that some might see his actions as traitorous to the Imperium, but his goal was saving mankind, not amassing personal power."

 

When Horus made his decision on Davin he thought he was doing the same thing.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

He chose to focus on maintaining Ultramar and other areas away from Terra instead of reinforcing Terra.

 

My understanding was that it wasnt that Guilliman didnt choose to rush to Terra, but rather the warp storms prevented him from leaving Ultramar. If that is right, then bolstering Ultramar seems to be a pretty good decision.

More importantly, its not like he was sitting idle and training the entire time, just waiting for the crap to hit the fan, but actively waging war against both the World Eaters and Word Bearers who invaded.

And now with Sanguinius and the Blood Angels entering the mix,things are going to get interesting.

 

 

When Horus made his decision on Davin he thought he was doing the same thing.

 

just incase this isnt clear, there is a LARGE difference between re-ordering the Imperium and bartering with daemons and chaos gods for conquest. while Horus thought he was doing the right thing initially, I have no doubt he fell to complete megalomania around the Dropsite Mass.

 

WLK

[dswanick]

(Sorry Leg, I gotta do it...) :D

 

Of course Guilliman was a traitor. But what do you expect from some cut-rate Imperial commander who re-writes Imperial history to turn himself from the Chapter Master of a third-founding Chapter into one of the finest of the Primarchs, while carving a demi-empire for himself out of the heart of the Emperor's own?

 

White Dwarf #97, Pg.39

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l634/dswanick/NewBitmapImage.png

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...showarticle=494

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

He's not a traitor! He's just conducting practice wars in his domains against loyalists while the galaxy burns around him.

[Legatus]

In the older lore, the Ultramarines did nothing during the Heresy and only arrived at Terra after Horus had already been beaten. But in that older lore, the Ultramarines had also only just learned about the Heresy when the Palace was already under siege, having been too far away at the other side of the galaxy to learn of it sooner.

 

In the Horus Heresy series, the Ultramarines learn of the Heresy much sooner, and now it seems they are deliberately holding back (though there was that warp storm prohibiting their movement for at least the first two years of the Herey, and the Battle for Calth had left them with precious few ships). But it seems likely that now the Ultramarines will also partake in a lot of engagements during the next five years of the Heresy, and will no longer have done nothing untill the very end. We will have to wait and see how much their involvement in the Heresy is going to be retconned in the future Black Library publications.

 

In very old lore (late 1st Edition), specifically in the 'Space Marine Epic' rulebook, the Ultramarines had been portrayed as fighting in a lot of battles during the Heresy. (Yep, they went through a few changed during 1st Edition. The passage dswanick quoted stated that they were a later founding Chapter who were given the number of a traitor Legion. The Space Marine Epic rulebook instead showed the Ultramarines as being one of the loyal Legions fighting heavily during the Heresy. In 2nd Edition, when their "current" background was established, they were said to not really have fought in the Heresy at all, having learned of it only at the end.)

 

The Horus Heresy series marks yet another change in the Ultramarines' backstory. Though the original two versions were back in 1st Edition where the different factions were not quite established, and the one that finally had been established in 2nd Edition has been their background for over fifteen years now.

[Wade Garrett]

Although normally I never miss a chance to bash Rob (He burned Khur! Warp take him!) in this case I think he did the right thing. The Emperor/Rogal Dorn's choice to sit back and fortify Terra ceded the iniative to the Traitor Legions...Sigismund says as much during "The Crimson Fist", and Dorn's response is that Horus is still Horus, he will make a spear thrust right at the enemy's throat for Terra. In short, the Imperial plan revolves around Horus acting as he has in the past...keep in mind that the Warmaster has just made moves NOBODY saw coming (Isstvan et al) so....

 

Heck, one could even argue that Guilliman's plan to defend the Imperium at large was more HUMANE than Dorn/Emps plan to mass forces at Terra and wait for the hammer to fall, leaving the outlying sectors to fend for themselves. As for Guilliman running simulations against other Loyalist Legions during "Rules of Engagment"...if nine legions can fall, why not ten? It only makes sense to be prepared to counter the battle doctrine of the Raven Guard, Space Wolves, etc. because if Horus's fall taught anyone anything, it's that betrayal can come from any corner. Not to mention every military force on the planet has simulations and contingency plans to fight every other nation, enemy, ally, neutral, you name it.

Most triumphant example:

The U.S. military has contingency plans to fight an uprising led by GIRL SCOUTS. In short, while Rob's flaws do sometimes outshine even his amazing skills at LOGISTICS, in this case he's much more sinned against than sinning.

[Calgar 2.0]

Although normally I never miss a chance to bash Rob (He burned Khur! Warp take him!) in this case I think he did the right thing. The Emperor/Rogal Dorn's choice to sit back and fortify Terra ceded the iniative to the Traitor Legions...Sigismund says as much during "The Crimson Fist", and Dorn's response is that Horus is still Horus, he will make a spear thrust right at the enemy's throat for Terra. In short, the Imperial plan revolves around Horus acting as he has in the past...keep in mind that the Warmaster has just made moves NOBODY saw coming (Isstvan et al) so....

 

Heck, one could even argue that Guilliman's plan to defend the Imperium at large was more HUMANE than Dorn/Emps plan to mass forces at Terra and wait for the hammer to fall, leaving the outlying sectors to fend for themselves. As for Guilliman running simulations against other Loyalist Legions during "Rules of Engagment"...if nine legions can fall, why not ten? It only makes sense to be prepared to counter the battle doctrine of the Raven Guard, Space Wolves, etc. because if Horus's fall taught anyone anything, it's that betrayal can come from any corner. Not to mention every military force on the planet has simulations and contingency plans to fight every other nation, enemy, ally, neutral, you name it.

Most triumphant example:

The U.S. military has contingency plans to fight an uprising led by GIRL SCOUTS. In short, while Rob's flaws do sometimes outshine even his amazing skills at LOGISTICS, in this case he's much more sinned against than sinning.

:huh:

 

This sounds new to me.

[Wade Garrett]

The U.S. military has contingency plans to fight an uprising led by GIRL SCOUTS. .

:huh:

This sounds new to me.

 

It's not quite insane as it sounds...it was from one of those exercises that throws completely off the wall stuff at the planners, in order to make sure nobody gets too locked into conventional thinking. Some of the other scenarios that got war gamed were first contact with an alien invasion and the zombie apocolypse.

Our tax dollars at work, fellow USians! :huh:

[DarkChaplain]

Surrender of power to the High Lords does sort of vindicate him but I think his decision is still questionable. He chose to focus on maintaining Ultramar and other areas away from Terra instead of reinforcing Terra. Given that the siege of Terra was so close fought and the Ultramarines were the most numerous legion I think that Guilliman could have prevented the death of the Emperor and many of the loyalist forces on Terra, leaving the Imperium stronger but his own personal power and historical significance reduced.

 

Just for the record:

In the Horus Heresy artbooks / Collected Visions, it was said that Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines were closing in on Terra faster than expected, which made Horus issue the "come at me, dad"-challenge aboard the Vengeful Spirit. Horus knew they were coming and it'd cost him the war, so he gambled everything on this duel, while creating a barrier of psychic force to prevent the loyalists from learning about their incoming salvation.

 

While Guilliman hasn't been rushing for Terra, he had plenty of trouble in his own realm, from Word Bearers and World Eaters to Warp Storms, and it looks like he set out as soon as it was 'safe' to do so - after Guilliman covered his, and the Imperium's, backsides.

 

That being said, we'll have to wait and read for ourselves how it will eventually turn out in the Horus Heresy series.

[Kol Saresk]

Hey, considering how many people do it in real life, someone should get paid for it.

[Wade Garrett]

Hey, considering how many people do it in real life, someone should get paid for it.

 

Touche. When the inevitable happens because of a new strain of rabies/out of control nanobots/some hitherto undiscovered Amazonian parasite/the birth of Nurgle in the Warp, the USA will be A-OK.

[Arachnid99]

Hey, considering how many people do it in real life, someone should get paid for it.

 

Touche. When the inevitable happens because of a new strain of rabies/out of control nanobots/some hitherto undiscovered Amazonian parasite/the birth of Nurgle in the Warp, the USA will be A-OK.

 

As will every other country with lots of peacetime staff officers lacking real wars to plan. Which actually means Russia will be in better shape than the US as most US Army staff officers have had lots of real wars to work on for the last 11 years meaning the zombie invasion plan is probably badly out of date.

[Sons of Horus]

I don't think Roboute was a traitor. He had a lot of problems to deal with in Ultramar before he could rush to Terra, so arriving late was probably justified. I still prefer the previously "established" fluff though.

[TRIBUN]

Thousand thanks for the answers, but is rob a traitor or Not? We don't know...if Not, it would ne sooo ultra-like...good and boring.

[Gray Knights]

No he was just thinking a head of the what if's

[Captain Idaho]

Guilliman has a plan yet revealed. Sanguinius will be with him for at least a portion of it, as will potentially other Loyalists like Khan or even Russ and the Lion. Something will go wrong and split them up clearly.

 

It's so premature to jump to the conclusion Guilliman is deliberately allowing the Emperor to fall. The only Primarch on Terra right now is Dorn, and so far only Corax popped home and left soon after. There is a civil war to fight! We are three years into a seven year war, with the Siege of Terra and the Emperor's palace lasting only 6 months to a year. Plenty of stuff will need to happen in that time.

 

For those who don't follow the Ultramarines very closely, you might be forgiven for not knowing much about Guilliman, but basically he had plans in place for every eventuality whenever he went to war. This is back ground material unchanged since 2nd edition. Any plan he makes to stop Horus will have no effect on his plans to take into account what happens if he fails to stop Horus or if even Horus wins. People are assuming his plan to stop Horus is the same as the one to save the Imperium in the event of Terra falling, but that is just an assumption.

 

What we know of Guilliman is that he is the only one who can stop Horus from reaching Terra, and this is even hinted at in some stories, with Horus mentioning it in several novels (False Gods and Galaxy in Flames notably) and even Imperial Fist senior officers making such remarks. He has revealed that he has a plan to "put Horus down" and has been preparing extensively after the Battle of Calth. Lastly we have hints from Black Library authors themselves that the Ultramarines and Guilliman will be involved in something big.

 

Regardless of the Warp Storm floods and lack of contact and capacity to travel to Terra shown in several novels, notably recently in Fear to Tread, Black Library are setting up for something dramatic to occur before Horus can attack Terra unopposed. It makes sense, since the door isn't open yet to make the attack so something needs to change.

 

What people need to do is completely ignore EVERYTHING from Collected Visions and other material on the Heresy. What is happening is people are applying what they think they already know about the Heresy to fill in the blanks the Heresy novels haven't got to yet, which is essentially marrying up information that doesn't fit together and isn't intended to.

[frostclaw222]

Roboute was one of the primarchs who could see things five moves ahead, usually. Yeah, that whole Calth thing pretty much bit him on the backside, but otherwise, he had his stuff squared away.

 

I do not think it inconceivable that he looked at Ultramar as a second chance for the Imperium that was meant to be. But I also don't look at him as a coward.

 

I should say (before Legatus calls me on it) that, in the days after the Siege of Terra, I think Guilliman did a lot of things to ensure that a) things like the Heresy could never happen again and :yes: Ultramar would always be somewhat of a fallback position in terms of utopian human society. I do think there was some sneaky thinking then, and I've gone rounds on that that I won't go into here.

 

However, between the warp storms and the huge losses of ships and manpower at Calth, I think we have to cut Roboute some slack. What was he supposed to do? Fling ships into the turbulent warp like Dorn did, and squander what manpower he has remaining?

 

RG did what he thought best. He regathered his forces, ensured the safety of his domains, and prepared for the worst before setting off to Terra. At least, that's what we know thus far. It's my suspicion that with Sanguinius arriving in Ultramar, we'll see him and Roboute go after Lorgar and Angron a bit before making for Terra, just from the way the meta-narrative is leaning.

 

Now, I know the Lion doesn't trust him. But you need to look at the source there. Let's face it: a) the Lion's at this point almost certainly more than a little paranoid, B) there is this whole brother-turning-on-brother Heresy going on, and c) he already got conned once by Perturabo. I wouldn't trust Roboute's muster order, either. It could be an invitation to an ambush.

 

I think Roboute honestly wanted to salvage the Imperium, and if he couldn't, he wanted to save Ultramar and start anew. He had the best intentions going into the war, but was wholly unprepared for the level of betrayal previous to Calth. He responded and adapted quickly and efficiently, though. Sure, there's the thought that Ultramar might have to be the seat of a new Imperium. This is a guy that plans for all contingencies. It's an ugly thought, one he hates to give voice to, but there it is.

 

Early Heresy Roboute's one of the few primarchs who's handling this whole thing well, in my book. Russ let himself get conned by Horus into going overboard on Prospero (not that it took much doing), the Lion's paranoid, Dorn's throwing men into the warp storms to try and kill Horus right now, then whistling them all back, further sacrificing men and ships, and many of the others allowed themselves to be caught out of position to respond effectively.

[Thunder Knight]

I can understand and tolerate the theoretical of a "Guilliman Heresy", it's an interesting train of thought that explores the very nature of Chaos and how we see it's ability to corrupt even the most pious of men.

 

But to imply that Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the XIII Legion "Ultramarines", Author of the Codex Astartes, was a traitor, is a heresy in itself of the highest magnitude, that I cannot endure silently with honour!

 

Guilliman was and always will be one of the greatest Heroes of the Imperium. While his actions to bolster Ultramar may seem suspect on any normal day, he took these difficult decisions in a time immediately following the universe turning on its head, in a way that our mortal minds may fail to fully comprehend. A lesser man, and I make no blasphemy toward any Primarch in this utterance, but a lesser man may not have had half the resolve or tactical forethought that Guilliman presented proceeding the Heresy, and this clearly shows in the annals of history from that dark age, as we find endless records of clouded judgement and foolhardy retaliation following the traitors first strike.

 

I apologise brother, but you have forced my hand.

 

The Inquisition has been notified.

[Captain Idaho]

And the thing is, we don't know if he's planning on staying in Ultramar and letting Horus destroy the Imperium. Horus hasn't even approached Terra yet so what has Guilliman betrayed?

[Wade Garrett]

And the thing is, we don't know if he's planning on staying in Ultramar and letting Horus destroy the Imperium. Horus hasn't even approached Terra yet so what has Guilliman betrayed?

:D

 

His brothers Horus, Angron, Curze, Alpharius, Perturabo, Magnus, Fulgrim, Mortarion, and Lorgar.

 

"Your loyalty is to ink and paper, Roboute! Our loyalty is blood!"

Lorgar Aurelian, Know No Fear

[Arachnid99]

As others have said it depends on your point of view. From the Dorn/Johnson POV for whom loyalty is personally directed at the Emperor preparing for a post-Emperor Imperium is treason, no doubt about it. The Imperium cannot exist without the Emperor and staying and enhancing the defenses of Ultramar rather than rushing straight to Terra despite Warp Storms and generally long odds is unacceptable.

 

From Guilimans perspective though his loyalty is to the Imperium and the mankind not one man, even his father and preparing for all possible eventualities and creating a "fall back" is good strategy.

 

In some ways it can be compared to the English Civil War and how people had to choose between loyalty to the Crown and the person of the monarch and Country in the form of Parliament.

[Legatus]

Guilliman wasn't planning for the Emperor's death. Even with terra besieged (which at the time Guilliman wrote his plans would not happen for another four years), why would he think that the Emperor would (or could) die?

 

The impression I got was that Guilliman felt that the Imperium was already in ruins, and that the loyal Legions should not try to fight over those ruins, but should rather rally and muster their forces to then beat back the traitors and start a new Imperium "from scratch". He did not leave the Emperor behind, he left the people of the current Imeprium behind, so that in the future there would be a new and prosperous Imperium.