Talking about the "bad units".

[Mutt-Man!]

Hi. Long time no text. Forgive me it has been... years since I have returned here.

In short the new codex got me interested to return. First I see complaints, then I see debates of the bad stuff. People are only saying "this is bad", not saying too much on why. I would like to discuss the high points of each unit, and focus on the units people deem inferior to other choices.

(ignore the links in my profile/signature, yet to update that since 4th edition IIRC)

 

Starting off with the defiler.

Cons:

+45 points from the last codex. (biggest gripe)

It's huge. Both for melee, LoS and hull down.

 

Uses:

It can see over rhinos and predators with its guns.

Starts with a twin-linked weapon for hassling flyers. (Unintended when they made it, I assume)

It has 4 hull points, regenerates.

It has a 72" range weapon when sitting back beyond 48" range weapons.

If it stays back, it's well equipped to handle outflankers, deep strikers and even a flyer.

It can guard a fire line, charging whatever to good effect.

It can use a rhino turned sideways for hull down, not that it needs it. 5++ save.

It's still the meanest heavy support melee you can throw at them.

 

So in short, you keep it well out of the range of 48" range guns it's pretty much a battle cannon that won't be removed easily. Forcing certain firepower to either get in range, or use specialists to get at it. Railguns for example will hit on 3+, need a 3+ to not have the regenerating hull point+save laugh at it, and then require another 3+ on the VD Chart. Which gets a save against, like the glance would. This should keep your advancing unit of berzerkers safe for the first vital turn or two.

 

I suggest one if you have a gunline to protect. I suggest two if you try to get long table edge deployment, putting one in each corner. You can keep one in reserves, and put it out of range of the enemy. Or use it aggressively.

 

All in all it's a do it all vehicle for a half decent price tag in points.

 

 

What's up next? If you would like me to run over a specific unit, go ahead and list it for me. I don't have the time to run down every unit at the moment like the old days for 3.5 and 4.0.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Defiler is a bad unit?

 

5++ invul, It will not die, 4 HP a blast weapon that kills MEQ on 2+ with no armour save, a collection of power fists. It may be expensive but why is it that bad?

[Tzimisce169]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this but it is possible to take 2 havoc launchers. 1 as an upgrade to the heavy flamer and 1 from the vehicle equipment list

[Smurfalypse]

I don't think many people are saying the Defiler is bad, they may be saying it is a bit expensive to fork out 200 points on an armor 12 vehicle.

Personally I think it is the best of the Daemon Engines by far, but you pay a premium for that just like everything else in the codex. You pay for what you get, and that is how a balanced codex should be.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I don't think many people are saying the Defiler is bad, they may be saying it is a bit expensive to fork out 200 points on an armor 12 vehicle.

Personally I think it is the best of the Daemon Engines by far, but you pay a premium for that just like everything else in the codex. You pay for what you get, and that is how a balanced codex should be.

 

I agree. I was just surprised to read the Defiler was included int the "bad units" list :yes:

[Mutt-Man!]

I don't think many people are saying the Defiler is bad, they may be saying it is a bit expensive to fork out 200 points on an armor 12 vehicle.

 

In retrospect of paying about 40 points less than a defiler for a Leman Russ Battle Tank. Which to use its 72" range gun, it has to ignore 3-4 of its other guns. You must pay through the nose to get the side sponsons capable of hurting aircraft and defend itself. On the other hand, it tends to crumble when charged in melee. The +2 front armor, abusing it for long range still faces str10, or str9 ordnance with no 5++ save. True it can get hull down, but it cannot protect its fellow gunline from melee.

 

It warrants the +45 points for the durability boost in that extra hull point, 5++ save and the fact it's a non-allied 72" range weapon that you can take multiples of. A vehicle that can take advantage of either melee or ranged weaknesses. I still like my defilers because of it, and I will field them more often.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I don't think many people are saying the Defiler is bad, they may be saying it is a bit expensive to fork out 200 points on an armor 12 vehicle.

 

In retrospect of paying about 40 points less than a defiler for a Leman Russ Battle Tank. Which to use its 72" range gun, it has to ignore 3-4 of its other guns. You must pay through the nose to get the side sponsons capable of hurting aircraft and defend itself. On the other hand, it tends to crumble when charged in melee. The +2 front armor, abusing it for long range still faces str10, or str9 ordnance with no 5++ save. True it can get hull down, but it cannot protect its fellow gunline from melee.

 

It warrants the +45 points for the durability boost in that extra hull point, 5++ save and the fact it's a non-allied 72" range weapon that you can take multiples of. A vehicle that can take advantage of either melee or ranged weaknesses. I still like my defilers because of it, and I will field them more often.

 

The Leman Russ has not a 5++ invul as standard and if you charge it you roll to pen its rear armour. And for the records if your Defiler fires with the Artillery weapon it can snapshot with the twin-linked reaper autocannon.

[Killax]

Nah the Defiler is not a bad unit, the only problem it can have is because of it's size not so much the point costs.

 

The only bad units in the dex are the units who cannot shoot and have to walk from point A to B. Deepstriking lets them be mediocre

 

By this general approach you could include:

- Possessed

- Mutilator (it can deepstrike, maul up a unit but then what?)

- Chaos Spawn

- Maulerfiend

 

Now you can obviously see I did not include Warp Talons, because of their deepstrike abilities, jump pack movement and thus being highly mobile.

The same could be said for Spawns, so that is open for discussion. Their randomness and slot cost however makes me dislike them.

 

Warhammer 40.000 is about shooting, even more so in the 6th. Being unable to do what the game is about mostley often makes you bad.

 

Cheers,

[Mutt-Man!]

The Leman Russ has not a 5++ invul as standard and if you charge it you roll to pen its rear armour. And for the records if your Defiler fires with the Artillery weapon it can snapshot with the twin-linked reaper autocannon.

5++ or the hull down save is what I meant. I also meant abusing the long range of the battle cannon, both comparing for the same role of long range beyond 48" range weaponry.

 

I'm aware you can snap fire the reaper, you can also have a combi-flamer to ensure that when the defiler is charged it has the heavy flamer+combi flamer to overwatch with and possibly stop an ork charge.

 

Though for the two havoc launchers, I see no need for them.

[Iron Sage]

I have only played one game with the new codex. But in that game, my defiler took a lot of fire and repaired 2 hull points (it would have been dead had it not repaired), untill it was finally killed by Marbos demo pack in turn 3. The beast was a severe annoyance to my opponent, although he was a tad unlucky getting mostly glances instead of Pens. But still. Ironically, my shooting with it was lackluster (kept scattering wild, and ended up killing just 5 guardsmen during the entire game), though then again, my shooting with every other vehicles was rather spectacular, and my opponent clearly feared it, firing on it, thus saving my marines from some pie plates.

 

It does have a lot of utility.

 

Edit: Also destroyed 2 weapons on a chimera, though thats a bit "Meh" I guess.

[Mutt-Man!]

Nah the Defiler is not a bad unit, the only problem it can have is because of it's size not so much the point costs.

 

The only bad units in the dex are the units who cannot shoot and have to walk from point A to B. Deepstriking lets them be mediocre

 

By this general approach you could include:

- Possessed

- Mutilator (it can deepstrike, maul up a unit but then what?)

- Chaos Spawn

- Maulerfiend

 

Now you can obviously see I did not include Warp Talons, because of their deepstrike abilities, jump pack movement and thus being highly mobile.

The same could be said for Spawns, so that is open for discussion. Their randomness and slot cost however makes me dislike them.

 

Warhammer 40.000 is about shooting, even more so in the 6th. Being unable to do what the game is about mostley often makes you bad.

 

Cheers,

 

Mutilator is the new melee terminator replacement. Add a mark and you're done. Most equivalents in comparative terminator units fall somewhere. It also is the new 'termicide', adding a nurgle or tzeentch mark to a singular model. Turn after it deep strikes it can kill an artillery, or what have you. If the opponent must shoot at something, a side tracked squad firing at an impending lone Mutilator could be exactly what you need.

 

Chaos Spawn are fast, and shouldn't be on that list. They fall under the beast rule, so they are capable for 10 points per toughness 5 wound. Scary if you utilize a mark with it.

 

Maulerfiend moves 12" a turn, also fast. Not much walking but rather running at the enemy full force. They're pretty damn fast for an AV12 walker.

 

Possessed can take a transport, like any other melee unit. Move forward, disembark and move for second turn assault. Effective enough if the opponent didn't want to take land, like any melee unit with a rhino can.

 

On a high note, anything you can deep strike can also be your trump card, the one unit you spent too many points on. As the rest of the army sets up, shoots down bad things and ties other units in melee... Is when you get your reserves/deep strike/outflank models in that would normally be the first target on the first turn of the game. Shot to pieces. As things get mucky, that unit can shine a bit more.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Nah the Defiler is not a bad unit, the only problem it can have is because of it's size not so much the point costs.

 

The only bad units in the dex are the units who cannot shoot and have to walk from point A to B. Deepstriking lets them be mediocre

 

By this general approach you could include:

- Possessed

- Mutilator (it can deepstrike, maul up a unit but then what?)

- Chaos Spawn

- Maulerfiend

 

Now you can obviously see I did not include Warp Talons, because of their deepstrike abilities, jump pack movement and thus being highly mobile.

The same could be said for Spawns, so that is open for discussion. Their randomness and slot cost however makes me dislike them.

 

Warhammer 40.000 is about shooting, even more so in the 6th. Being unable to do what the game is about mostley often makes you bad.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Chaos Spawn are fast, and shouldn't be on that list. They fall under the beast rule, so they are capable for 10 points per toughness 5 wound. Scary if you utilize a mark with it.

 

Maulerfiend moves 12" a turn, also fast. Not much walking but rather running at the enemy full force. They're pretty damn fast for an AV12 walker.

 

 

Maulerfiends and Spawns are fast units that can pose an immediate threat to the enemy. I have talked profusely about maulerfiends in another topic, give it a look if you like.

They are nice units for pressing your oponent. Maulers are a turn 2 charge units and under certain circumstances even turn 1 charge!

 

Warp Talons, on the other side are meh. They are expensive and their deep strike blind attack is too situational. First you have to risk a mishap by coming so close to the enemy, then they have to fail an INI check (not so easy to fail when you have I4), after that you take a full turn of fire AND charge.

[Smurfalypse]

Nah the Defiler is not a bad unit, the only problem it can have is because of it's size not so much the point costs.

 

The only bad units in the dex are the units who cannot shoot and have to walk from point A to B. Deepstriking lets them be mediocre

 

By this general approach you could include:

- Possessed

- Mutilator (it can deepstrike, maul up a unit but then what?)

- Chaos Spawn

- Maulerfiend

 

Now you can obviously see I did not include Warp Talons, because of their deepstrike abilities, jump pack movement and thus being highly mobile.

The same could be said for Spawns, so that is open for discussion. Their randomness and slot cost however makes me dislike them.

 

Warhammer 40.000 is about shooting, even more so in the 6th. Being unable to do what the game is about mostley often makes you bad.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Chaos Spawn are fast, and shouldn't be on that list. They fall under the beast rule, so they are capable for 10 points per toughness 5 wound. Scary if you utilize a mark with it.

 

Maulerfiend moves 12" a turn, also fast. Not much walking but rather running at the enemy full force. They're pretty damn fast for an AV12 walker.

 

 

Maulerfiends and Spawns are fast units that can pose an immediate threat to the enemy. I have talked profusely about maulerfiends in another topic, give it a look if you like.

They are nice units for pressing your oponent. Maulers are a turn 2 charge units and under certain circumstances even turn 1 charge!

 

Warp Talons, on the other side are meh. They are expensive and their deep strike blind attack is too situational. First you have to risk a mishap by coming so close to the enemy, then they have to fail an INI check (not so easy to fail when you have I4), after that you take a full turn of fire AND charge.

 

Pretty much in agreement with you about both the Maulerfiends and Warp Talons.

 

Especially Warp Talons, they are just so frigging expensive and do not accomplish a pile more than Raptors or Bikers would.

I think they over valued what the Daemon USR does for non-vehicle models in this codex. All of the new ones with it seem to be over priced by a fair amount.

[Urauloth]

Yeah, let's talk about warp talons. They are terrible. Is there even any way of justifying them or any good points to discuss? I'm pretty sure I'm just going to go ahead and forget they exist.

[Killax]

Excellent to see we are getting somewhere now.

 

I still am not a fan of the Maulerfiend or Mutilators, size lets them not be ignored, deep striking is not the best if you actually have no ranged weaponry at all.

Now I have to say Spawns are worth some discussion. Again I think using the points for more Dakka is more worth it.

 

Immediate threat on Maulerfiends and Spawns? I don't call a unit who needs at least 2 turns to get into combat a immediate threat. Unless your opponent forgets to move ^_^.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Immediate threat on Maulerfiends and Spawns? I don't call a unit who needs at least 2 turns to get into combat a immediate threat. Unless your opponent forgets to move :P.

 

Do you know an unit that can charge before the maulerfiend (with 12" movement ignoring terrain and fleet) does?

 

If they move their units away in order to keep their units our of charge range they are making us a favour, especially when their heavy weapons are forced to snapshot or their vehicles cannot fire (in order to gain the maximum distance possible) and both of them risk to e out of range from several of our units.

 

Perhaps there is something more competive but I woudn't call the mauler a completely useless unit.

[Feste]

Immediate threat on Maulerfiends and Spawns? I don't call a unit who needs at least 2 turns to get into combat a immediate threat. Unless your opponent forgets to move :P.

 

Do you know an unit that can charge before the maulerfiend (with 12" movement ignoring terrain and fleet) does?

 

If they move their units away in order to keep their units our of charge range they are making us a favour, especially when their heavy weapons are forced to snapshot or their vehicles cannot fire (in order to gain the maximum distance possible) and both of them risk to e out of range from several of our units.

 

Perhaps there is something more competive but I woudn't call the mauler a completely useless unit.

In fact talking about Maulerfiends and Spawns together, they'd be an interesting combo. The Spawns have enough attacks to help clear out infantry, while the Mauler can help them against TDA and Walkers. The Spawns are so large that they can even provide the Maulerfiend with cover.

 

EDIT: You're looking at 315 for a Maulerfiend and 5 MoN Spawn, not bad for a quick, flanking force.

[Killax]

True true, I might be wrong in that Spawns are all bad in this Codex. They actually are nice pets for a Lord on a Steed to.

 

Cheers,

[Cmdr Shepard]

Immediate threat on Maulerfiends and Spawns? I don't call a unit who needs at least 2 turns to get into combat a immediate threat. Unless your opponent forgets to move ;).

 

Do you know an unit that can charge before the maulerfiend (with 12" movement ignoring terrain and fleet) does?

 

If they move their units away in order to keep their units our of charge range they are making us a favour, especially when their heavy weapons are forced to snapshot or their vehicles cannot fire (in order to gain the maximum distance possible) and both of them risk to e out of range from several of our units.

 

Perhaps there is something more competive but I woudn't call the mauler a completely useless unit.

In fact talking about Maulerfiends and Spawns together, they'd be an interesting combo. The Spawns have enough attacks to help clear out infantry, while the Mauler can help them against TDA and Walkers. The Spawns are so large that they can even provide the Maulerfiend with cover.

 

EDIT: You're looking at 315 for a Maulerfiend and 5 MoN Spawn, not bad for a quick, flanking force.

 

That's exactly my thought: not bad for a quick, flanking force. You could also save some point and give MoS to spawns so they attack at the same INI level of SM.

[Cpt_Reaper]

If one takes Warp Talons it is almost essential to have a Dimensional Key for those pinpoint drops. I use my Raptors (and Warp Talons when I get a set) as a bodyguard for my winged lord. Sure, they spend a turn or two flying across the board hunting down something, but I always make sure there are bigger threats than them. The Lord and his Raptors hide in the shadows, out of LoS...until the right moment a counter-charge is needed. Surprise! Fearless Khornate Raptors with a Khornate Raptor Lord. Factor in the Talons' Lightning Claws and you have a killpoint almost assured.

[Leth Shyish'phak]

I wouldn't say Warp Talons are a particularly bad unit. I've yet to try them out, but I intend to use my unit of 10 :) as soon as I can. They'll have the MoN and VotLW, and probably 2 gifts on the champion (because when they're that expensive, you might as well). Comparing them to Terminators (they're of a similar price, and are both elite combat units), they lose a point of armour save and the ability to gain AP2 attacks and guns of course, but they get jump packs instead. I'm finding that the biggest problem with my terminators is their (lack of) speed, otherwise they're a very solid combat unit. So, I think we should give the Talons a chance before throwing them out the window.

 

Also, a Vanguard Veteran with a jump pack and 2 lightning claws is 60 points. That alone is enough to make me want to take Warp Talons and point it out to every loyalist player I meet at every possible opportunity. ;)

[Azekai]

The dimensional key is broken (in a bad way) and I would never use it. Warp Talons are a lot of fun but due to our inaccurate deep strikes it can be really hard to get them in a good position without being shot to shiny hell.

The only way I think they might work is to have an allied unit of chaos daemons packing an icon help them onto the field.

 

Also, a Vanguard Veteran with a jump pack and 2 lightning claws is 60 points. That alone is enough to make me want to take Warp Talons and point it out to every loyalist player I meet at every possible opportunity

Yes, but vanguards can assault after deepstriking, and they are highly accurate when they come in. They are all but guaranteed to mess up whatever they land next to. Our Talons are cheaper (but still pricey), and they are much riskier.

[Mutt-Man!]

So we'll discuss Warp Talons and Spawns. We can bash heads over which unit is more effective than another unit is and why. This and that is fast attack, competing with this preferred unit, etc. Any unit can throw basic attacks, etc. So I'll throw out some spawn stuff.

 

Fast attack unit, could soak up fast attack slots as singles for a blitz tactic effective against guard units, hitting everywhere at once. Also to force piling orks together pulling them in one direction in a suicide rush. Because of the forced consolidating moves when charged, etc. Harass lightly melee capable firepower units that overkill a spawn, but has no choice but to turn their guns on it/them. Another way to use a spawn is to have it be that stalling melee unit you expect to survive until next turn, dying in the opponents assault phase. Making sure that unit can't move or shoot.

 

The unit being a full unit has merit. A sort of orkyness random chance to roll big, a full 6 attacks +2 charging and voila, an easy 40 attacks at above normal strength. Having strength 5 means you can harm most non walker or flyer vehicles in the game, bar the normal monolith/raider etc.

 

Mutated Beyond Reason. Being able to either get the full average of 3.5 out of the dice, a 50% armor save or be able to wound anything toughness 6+ on a 4 or better. Arguable the str negates the usefulness of the third one, while the first two are more desired. This bonus tips the scale of "maybe" to "I'm ok with it it". Again, the randomness can throw you off, but if you count on this it could be folly. A situation you can always count on any of it would be to throw them against units like wraithguard, nurgle bikers, a mixed unit with an HQ hiding inside (to clear out his bodyguards).

 

The marks with this unit is not too detrimental, though people may want to abuse the units swiftness to get into close combat with a toughness upgrade. Since the most likely use for the speed is to ensure they don't die fast in melee. Enhancing their stalling capabilities. The other usefulness could be str6 single rusher to hit a vehicle using the khorne mark. Maybe keep the unit back with a slaanesh mark, escorting a lord on his slaanesh steed. Slaanesh is useful for combating I3 hordes and striking with I4 units, but the lack of grenades ensures this is not useful charging into terrain. That leaves tzeentch with giving a measly invuln save. Not to worry, it will save 1 wound in 6, a simple 20 points will give you about 15 tries, saving two full models. The only saving grace in some situations, and mostly because it's the most fluffy mark for them.

 

The ability to cause fear can be very useful, especially if you have a slaanesh mark and need to chase a unit down afterward. Weak units like guard can flee on a dime at times.

 

 

Final thoughts on the unit would be:

-Best taken as a single harasser (still).

-Taken as a full unit, it can be relied on if you expect the randomness at its worst when you throw them into a situation. You may be surprised at the result.

-You won't kick yourself if you pick a mark out of fluff reasoning. Meaning they go well with themed lists.

-They're durable as they are for their cost so they won't drag down your lists durability level.

-They're useful if you pack death star style melee, when melee starts you will need more units to tie down the enemies possibly numerous squads.

-The style of list that packs lots of fast attack of a different kind will naturally not select these spawns, but still useful to have in case you spawn your own dudes. Buy one or two anyway.

 

Your thoughts on spawns?

(cont, going to warp talons now... I have free time still)

 

Warp talons are 13 points over raptors, with a 5++ save in regards of durability. So basically you're getting a terminator that trades its 2+ save for 12" movement. Trading the weapons he starts with for twin claws. No icon allowed but can blind nearby units when they deep strike (only suggested as units of 5). Mark bonuses can make them tough like stock bikes, 4++, striking ahead of regular marines outside cover, or striking at +1 strength on the charge(for penetrating AV10 rear vehicles - lacking krak grenades).

 

So, to summarize that Terminators don't have grenades, neither do these warp talons. They should be thought of as similar in melee. Speed over armor. Already traded the weapons for claws (which would make a terminator cost over 40 points). Any other uses like killing a vehicle, which a single terminator would bring a chainfist for should be handled by other units. A true eldar unit feel to the units tunnel vision.

 

This unit removes 3+ saves readily. A unit of 5 can act as if they're a type of HQ unit of sorts, capable of hunting down other HQ's and winning. If you fear the 3+ save being hassled, keep them hidden from basic fire by being behind a tank. Following it up until it's time, or deep striking mid game where other fast units have already got to dancing range and he cannot focus fire on the warp talons. This unit requires some finesse but I like that we get them at all. They're our 'eldar banshees' after all. If we have an army where its a gunline, and a true bolter, flamer overwatch based army that gets overwhelmed. We send in some warp talons to be the counter assault unit to remove the targets.

 

Final thoughts of Warp Talons:

-They make a great counter assault unit, helping ignore the fact they have no grenades.

-Compared to terminators, who aren't that fast and require raiders to get around, this unit works with a fast army.

-The unit can hunt a good number of HQ's, for say we use a shooty sorcerer, this unit can fill the void for hunting HQ's.

-The perk uses for the unit are somewhat synergetic with the tactics to help them survive, deep strike lets the army tie the enemy down and you could utilize the blind effect in addition because you just can.

-The opponent may over-react to deal with the unit, and that can cause a void for experienced players to take advantage of.

-The unit is damn tough with 4++ save when beyond rapid fire range and hard guns hit them.

-The unit is a beast with toughness 5 while in melee with normal marines, they will munch everything.

-The unit is basically a "pay for each extra number of attacks and +1 wound HQ, to a total of a 10 wound HQ in fast attack slot" type of mindset unit. Think of it that way.

 

 

Extra thoughts on warp talons, please share.

[Deadman Wade]

Don't know why Warp Talons considered as a bad unit. First, loyalist Vanguard (BA and vanilla) veterans would pay 30pts for a pair of claws only, which means about 50pts for a single marine with 1 more attack, grenades and charge after deep strike, no 5++, no blind.

Second, you don't have to deep strike them - I don't thing that deep striking 10-man units is a good idea at all, except you're Blood Angel.

And finally, with VotLW they would kill any 3+ marine unit easily. For 10 man unit it's 21 attacks, 31 on charge, with mark of slaanesh and VotLW they would massacre anything that's not 2+/3++ without taking any casualties. Their only con is their upgrade cost.

[Smurfalypse]

Don't know why Warp Talons considered as a bad unit. First, loyalist Vanguard (BA and vanilla) veterans would pay 30pts for a pair of claws only, which means about 50pts for a single marine with 1 more attack, grenades and charge after deep strike, no 5++, no blind.

Second, you don't have to deep strike them - I don't thing that deep striking 10-man units is a good idea at all, except you're Blood Angel.

And finally, with VotLW they would kill any 3+ marine unit easily. For 10 man unit it's 21 attacks, 31 on charge, with mark of slaanesh and VotLW they would massacre anything that's not 2+/3++ without taking any casualties. Their only con is their upgrade cost.

 

300pts for a 10 man unit. In a 1500pt ish game they are 1/5th of your entire army, when they charge they eat an over watch, then if into cover they get to go last. I would trade grenades for that 5++ any day, but that is my opinion. Also their competition in that slot has grenades, can take a couple shooty weapons, and a champ who can take even more upgrades (melta bomb, ect ect). You can do this for significantly cheaper, yeah you dont get the fancy blind (which is not that good), you don't get the 5++, and you dont get the all lightning claw unit, but i would rather have the other stuff and save a rack of points in the process.