Talking about the "bad units".

[Sons_of_Medax]

Warp Talons, at least as far as competitive lists go, are a terrible choice. You would Choose MoN Bikes every time.. The sole thing that kills them is a lack of grenades. My main use for Vanguard is assaulting units holding home objectives, or tying them up to contest it. And sure similarly tooled up Vanguard are more expensive, but the inability to strike first when assaulting units in cover is massive. Regardless of whether you deep strike them or not, they're only 3+, single wound marines. They don't Have heroic intervention, do you've got at least a turn of getting shot at. And if I face you I dont care what your Invo is, I'll just bolter fire you to death. And yes, I know not every unit you assault is in cover. But you tell IG players you're rocking warp talons and watch them cling to terrain like it's their mother.

 

For only 40 or so points more, you can get 5 bikes with MoN, 2 melta guns, combi melta and fist champion... T6 with ability to turbo boost.. plus you always get hammer of wrath with bikes. So yeah, no comparison.

[Deadman Wade]

I don't really consider blind as anything more than a gimmick, since deepstrike without Icons/beacons is very risky. Sure, WT are expensive, but I think they are really good at what they do - killing non-TDA infantry in melee, and I don't think that any unit in new codex can do it better. Terminator with twin claws cost 38pts, 2+ save, 1 more attack, no jump pack, no sweeping advance and still no grenades, requires a land raider to get into melee, possessed risk not rolling 3-4 for AP3 and getting killed by some troops like BA assault squads of simple Grey Hunters, Mutilators are too few to be a threat, and raptors are harassment mobile unit with no actuall killing power.

I agree, WT maybe not cost-efficient, but not too bad at all.

[Brother Dakath]

Well, IMHO Warp Talons may be expensive and the Warpflame rule does seem a little odd I think it might work if you have the Dimensional Key go off where you can Deep Strike without scattering. Also, the Warpflame would help keep whatever unit they are within 6" of at WS and BS 1 until the end of their next turn so if you drop them next to units then they're going to have a hard time hitting them, which would mean that your opponent has to take other units to shoot them or bring up for assault. It's certainly not an ideal situation but I wouldn't count it as worthless in my book, though you would have to hope that your Keybearer can kill someone in close combat before the Warp Talons come in....that seems to be the only hard thing to pull off.

[Sception]

- Possessed

- Mutilator (it can deepstrike, maul up a unit but then what?)

- Chaos Spawn

- Maulerfiend

 

Spawn and mauler's are fast enough for melee units, the worry is a lack of offensive punch. Maulers are great at killing buildings, tanks, and little else - their low weapon skill and attacks leave them at a serious disadvantage in melee against infantry or other walkers. I'm not sure how to make the most of them, other than to point them at enemy heavy tanks or fortifications. Model-wise, the tentacles look cool, but I think the cutters are probably better on them. Better to support them with fast units like raptors or bikes to try and keep infantry & other walkers off of them.

 

Mutilators are mediocre. Deep strike helps their mobility issues, but unlike termicide or deep striking oblits, mutes can't do anything the turn they arrive. Even on the next turn, they simply don't have enough attacks to pose a serious threat. If you want to use them anyway, I think they're probably best as two to three man deep striking squads with mark of choice (anything but slaanesh, I'd say), dropping in as a reserve to support basic infantry squads that get stuck in with heavier enemies.

 

Possessed are unreliable and overpriced, but they do at least have fleet and S5 built in, so that's... kind of something? At least all the marks are good on them. Due to their lack of grenades, they probably work best as a second wave or counter assault unit, charging in to support where other units have already engaged. They look a little better against orks or tyranids, where S5 can be more important than power weapons, and your enemy is probably barreling down at you rather than hanging back in cover. In those cases, MoN might be best, to help cut down on casualties from the ton of attacks you'll be taking, though MoT might be needed if you get stuck in with stealers or nobz.

 

Spawn are fast and cheap enough that I don't see them as especially bad - just point & release for a decent distraction unit.

 

Defilers have been mentioned and... yeah, they're a bit pricey for an armor 12 vehicle. And vehicles in general are kind of meh these days. But judged against other vehicles they don't strike me as bad at all. With IWND and a 5++ daemon save, that extra hull point is easily worth the extra 25 points it costs over a forgefiend, imo. And it brings comparable firepower to a forgefiend without sacrificing melee ability. Whether you're sitting back & shooting your battle cannon, plodding forward while firing off shots from reaper & two havoc launchers, or gearing up on melee weapons and running as fast as possible into assault, I think the defiler is by far the best of the daemon engines. Again, that may not be enough to make it good, not in 6e, but I don't think it's bad enough to worry about by any stretch.

 

Talons do strike me as bad. They're quite expensive, lack any form of ranged attack, lack grenades. Their blind rule is basically pointless given our lack of homing beacons - you're more likely to mishap and lose your squad trying to land close enough to use it than you are to actually successfully blind anything. Bikes and Raptors both seem to be better, cheaper, more versatile options for the slot. What they really needed was something like the vanguard vet's ability to charge the turn they deep strike - now that's an opportunity worth the risk - or at least should have kept their grenades, or maybe inherited the hit and run rule that raptors used to have way back when. Anyway, as it is, they're pretty painfully overpriced compared to available alternatives, but like mutes & possessed, they're the mediocre kind of bad, not the spectacular kind of bad that would render them unusable. And the models are certainly pretty enough that some will choose to use them anyway. They still work for what they do - deploy normally or drop behind LOS blocking terrain & hop from hiding point to hiding point until you can charge a power armored unit in the open or one already engaged. Like possessed, any of the marks is worthwhile for them, so feel free to take whichever fits your theme best. Or none at all, they're expensive enough already. If you're playing against marines, vets is of course worthwhile (if they can take it? I'm away from my book at the moment).

 

 

Another unit that's been a repeated gripe of my own is thousand sons. Point for point, their 4++ save makes them no more durable agaist AP3 or better weaponry than basic chaos marines, and they're considerably less durable than marines in cover. Likewise, while AP3 bolters sounds amazing, point for point it's only slightly better than basic bolter fire from CSM squads, and that's before you factor in special weapons or the possibility of the target being in cover, both of which quickly even the score. And you're stuck with a unit that pays way too many points for a psyker champ, imo, and dies twice as fast as basic marines to small arms fire. You're almost always better off with unupgraded basic CSMs, which are hardly the most impressive troops in the universe, and that's when you're playing specifically to the thousand sons strengths! Point is, they're way overpriced. IMO, to the point of pushing the boundry between subpar / mediocre and just plain bad. That said, if you're a Tzeentch player, you've kind of got to try to use them, so how to go about it? General theory is that they work best plodding along beside cultists or basic marines, providing extra supporting fire against power armored targets, and... I guess that's the best I can think of for them? Though I'm certainly open to hearing some other ideas.

[Dallas Drake]

Possessed.

 

Take a look at the Slaanesh psychic powers.

 

Sensory Overload is useful with Blind & Pinning. Denies Overwatch on those few nasty shooty units & gives you a chance to get into position on your terms.

 

Hysterical Frenzy coupled with MoK & IoW. This is just sick IMO. This combo means one Possessed can have;

 

6 x S7 I5 attacks or 6 x S6 I6 attacks or 7 x S6 AP3 attacks. Etc, etc...

 

There's plenty of combinations, sure it's two D3 tables but get a nasty combo & these puppies can take anything down!

 

I think it's really worth looking at the layered synergy that's embedded into this codex before ruling out a unit just because they don't have Assault Grenades. I'm pretty sure I can get around this small problem if it gives me a unit that can put out 54 S7 I5 attacks plus a Sorcerer with a Force Weapon.

 

Symphony of Pain is ok, makes you harder to hit & you hit them easier.

 

Ecstatic Seizures helps blow tarpits & hordes out of the way.

 

Add in VoTLW for re-rolls against all Marines & 2 rolls on the Boons table & you can get a unit of utter death... Yes, it's still 'random' but when there's no bad rolls how & why does that matter?

 

Dallas