Warrior Acolytes: Hot Shot Lasguns any good?

[Karamazov]

I have 90pts left to spend in a 2k list, and I could get a couple warrior acolyte squads with hot shot lasguns. Are these any good?

 

They seem like they could be good in theory, but bad in practice. I am looking for some squads to hold backfield objectives. I am asking about hs lasguns specifically b/c I have a bunch of cadian models I could use, but they all have lasguns. Thanks.

[Zeratul29]

Well you'd be getting 10 of them without any upgrades, just bare acolytes and hot shots, you can if you want, i just dont see a lot of damage output, averaging 5 rolls to hit, then 2.5 to wound against toughness 3 or maybe 1 or 2 against toughness 4 on average, but if you really want a backfield objective holder, just go bolters 11 bolter acolytes (55 points) and 1 jokearo(35 points) for a total of 90 points, thats two extra ablative wounds, plus a lascannon, mm or heavy flamer and you get the buff of the jokearo

[shortysl]

Personally I prefer Bolters because of the difference in range. 18" maximum range gets you awfully close to the action and even that AP3 is only of limited use since the strength of the weapon is still only 3.

[Inquisitor Fox]

AP3 of limited use? Surely you jest :)

 

Odds of a bolter (s4) hurting a Space Marine fired at BS3: 1/12 or 0.0833

Odds of a hotshot lasgun (s3) hurting a Space Marine fired at BS3: 1/6 or 0.1667

 

That's literally twice the odds. The difference? The Space Marine gets no armor save against the hotshot lasgun.

 

They're worth the points, the only downside now is 6" less range. However, remember you are using these guys in conjunction with other models and Troops choices! They have less standoff range, but really if you're counting your "standoff" range as 24", you're doing something wrong because the only army that doesn't really outrange the Grey Knights in that sense is the Sisters of Battle. Everyone else has more guns with long range than you, so why not pick a more effective short range gun since you'll be at short range anyway?

 

In my mind, the only real effective argument against the hotshot lasgun is that a bolter is cheaper. I've never had a game where having a 24" weapon rather than an 18" weapon made a large difference. It may be how I play, but it's what I've noticed.

[Azekai]

AP3 of limited use? Surely you jest :huh:

 

Odds of a bolter (s4) hurting a Space Marine fired at BS3: 1/12 or 0.0833

Odds of a hotshot lasgun (s3) hurting a Space Marine fired at BS3: 1/6 or 0.1667

 

That's literally twice the odds. The difference? The Space Marine gets no armor save against the hotshot lasgun.

 

They're worth the points, the only downside now is 6" less range. However, remember you are using these guys in conjunction with other models and Troops choices! They have less standoff range, but really if you're counting your "standoff" range as 24", you're doing something wrong because the only army that doesn't really outrange the Grey Knights in that sense is the Sisters of Battle. Everyone else has more guns with long range than you, so why not pick a more effective short range gun since you'll be at short range anyway?

 

In my mind, the only real effective argument against the hotshot lasgun is that a bolter is cheaper. I've never had a game where having a 24" weapon rather than an 18" weapon made a large difference. It may be how I play, but it's what I've noticed.

Quite so; gotta love math-hammer ;) I just got a squad of 12 hot-shot acolytes, and I love them. Against MEQs I always favor hotshots over bolters.

[Karamazov]

Quite so; gotta love math-hammer ;) I just got a squad of 12 hot-shot acolytes, and I love them. Against MEQs I always favor hotshots over bolters.

Would you split them into 2 squads if Coteaz is in your list, or would you want the squad at 12 to be as large as possible? I guess the upside to 2 six man squads would be hold two obj, can fire at two targets, but on the other hand, 12 is obviously more survivable as a squad.

[Azekai]

Good point, it depends on the game size. In a small game I might just have 3 squads of 4.

I really need more, though. The more you get the more their Joker buddy will buff.

[Brother Maikel]

AP3 of limited use? Surely you jest ;)

 

Odds of a bolter (s4) hurting a Space Marine fired at BS3: 1/12 or 0.0833

Odds of a hotshot lasgun (s3) hurting a Space Marine fired at BS3: 1/6 or 0.1667

 

That's literally twice the odds. The difference? The Space Marine gets no armor save against the hotshot lasgun.

 

They're worth the points, the only downside now is 6" less range. However, remember you are using these guys in conjunction with other models and Troops choices! They have less standoff range, but really if you're counting your "standoff" range as 24", you're doing something wrong because the only army that doesn't really outrange the Grey Knights in that sense is the Sisters of Battle. Everyone else has more guns with long range than you, so why not pick a more effective short range gun since you'll be at short range anyway?

 

In my mind, the only real effective argument against the hotshot lasgun is that a bolter is cheaper. I've never had a game where having a 24" weapon rather than an 18" weapon made a large difference. It may be how I play, but it's what I've noticed.

 

 

Against anything with a 3+ or 4+ save a hot-shot lasgun will be better at ranges of 1-9" and 12.01-18". At 9.01-12" or 18.01-24" the Bolters are equal or better, due to that 6" max range boost (and thus 3" rapid-fire range boost), with the exception of a T3 with 3+... so HS Lasguns are always better vs eldar Dark Reapers.

 

Another thing to consider is that Bolters can glance AV10 and wound T7, while HS lasguns can't.

 

It basically comes down to your expected opponents and preferred playstyle (and what models you have). If you're facing mostly power armour marines and have a pretty aggressive playstyle (or they have a pretty aggressive playstyle), then you're a little better off with HS Lasguns. If you're facing xenos, or tend to sit back and shoot from a distance most of the time, bolters or stormbolters (which are better vs non-dark-reapers at all ranges >9") might be a better option.

 

As for 1x12 vs 2x6, that probably depends on how many other scoring units you have in the list. If you've already got 4-5 then I'd go with 1x12. If you're less than that, then 2x6 might be better. 1x12 is better for both survivability and force multiplication (prescience, perfect timing, etc), but 2x6 as you pointed out gives you more options for shooting and allows you to sit on two objectives if necessary

[shortysl]

AP3 of limited use? Surely you jest :woot:

 

Odds of a bolter (s4) hurting a Space Marine fired at BS3: 1/12 or 0.0833

Odds of a hotshot lasgun (s3) hurting a Space Marine fired at BS3: 1/6 or 0.1667

 

That's literally twice the odds. The difference? The Space Marine gets no armor save against the hotshot lasgun.

 

They're worth the points, the only downside now is 6" less range. However, remember you are using these guys in conjunction with other models and Troops choices! They have less standoff range, but really if you're counting your "standoff" range as 24", you're doing something wrong because the only army that doesn't really outrange the Grey Knights in that sense is the Sisters of Battle. Everyone else has more guns with long range than you, so why not pick a more effective short range gun since you'll be at short range anyway?

 

In my mind, the only real effective argument against the hotshot lasgun is that a bolter is cheaper. I've never had a game where having a 24" weapon rather than an 18" weapon made a large difference. It may be how I play, but it's what I've noticed.

 

Yeah I admit I don't do the whole 'Mathhammer' thing, I was speaking from personal experience. Never had much use for Hot-Shot Lasguns; my Imperial Guard army is more effective without them. Having said that, I have always advocated weight of fire as opposed to specific weapon capabilities anyway. It was just an opinion.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

S3 AP3 is of limited use. Marines laugh at your damage output, loses 1-2 guys, then bolter your faces apart with contempt. That's assuming they don't just bolt pistol+charge you (18" is potentially within charge range).

 

Storm bolters remain the pro choice for shooty warbands on the meatshields. 7pt bolter spam at 24" is some of the most efficient anti-infantry in the game. Guardsman cry when you tell them what storm bolter Acolytes cost. Tyranids turn purple with rage when your 7pt models gun down their 5pt terrible meatshield with half the range on their guns and half the damage output (fleshborers lol). Orks are perturbed, 'since when did dey get shootaz? silly umies, trying to be green'. Eldar hate your forever.

 

Hot-shot lasguns are terrible on Stormtroopers, and they're terrible on Acolytes. S3 is worthless unless you are A: 5pts a model and especially B: come in large squads (aka IG only). Even then, FRFSRF only does so much (Marines are still kinda winning, as if they reach combat with enough dudes, you're still gonna get grinded down to 10 dudes despite winning the combat).

[Inquisitor Fox]

I also pay the extra points for Carapace Armor. That does a lot to limit the damage of said bolters on the return fire. In addition, throwing a Jokaero or two in a squad with carapace armor and hotshot lasguns has a decent chance of a range increase or an armor increase. It's not perfect, but it's fun :)

 

I like that we can have a discussion like this and everyone prefers something different... which in the end says it's all viable, pick your fancy and run with it.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I also pay the extra points for Carapace Armor. That does a lot to limit the damage of said bolters on the return fire. In addition, throwing a Jokaero or two in a squad with carapace armor and hotshot lasguns has a decent chance of a range increase or an armor increase. It's not perfect, but it's fun

 

Mmm, I love Jokaero. And yeah, in a 24" firefight, Marines aren't putting out enough shots to break carapace reliably. Its when you get into rapid-fire range that they get scary. So again, I reckon the storm bolter is better for those ranged duels, but I can see hot-shots working against MSU Marines or finishing off a mauled unit you've shot with Knights.

 

In the end, Acolytes are so cheap that so long as you don't put them in power armour or try to build them for melee, you're probably going to get away with a cost-effective squad anyway. Cultists may be the same price, but they have nowhere near the level of customization (they just build in 35-strong blobs and refuse to die).

[Zeratul29]

I would say that a 35 man cc cultist squad would die to a 12 man bolter acolyte squad in a shoot out just on the differences in saves and weapons

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I would say that a 35 man cc cultist squad would die to a 12 man bolter acolyte squad in a shoot out just on the differences in saves and weapons

 

Unlikely. On average you kill 4 Cultists a turn at 24", then 8 at 12", (assuming no cover, as they will have to break cover to charge you) then they assault you and you die under a mass of stabbings. Storm bolter Acolytes make it 8 dead traitors at all ranges out to 24", so at least you'll attrition well and trade fairly well (84pts vs 150pts).

 

I still say, go plasma cannon servitors and enjoy the fireworks. 'Prescience' from Coteaz or cheap Inquisitor, laugh as his blob gets reduced to slag in two turns of firing.

[Zeratul29]

Well, thats what i always go for if i'm running coteaz :)

[thraxdown]

While we're on the topic of acolytes, can you equip them with two storm bolters each? The codex says may replace and/or, so that leads me to believe you can unless I'm overlooking something. And if you can does anyone think it'd be worth doing?

 

Edit: now that I'm thinking about it, you can only fire one weaponso it's a pointless question.

[spartan249]

I prefer 10 Storm Bolter Acolytes joined by 2 Jokaero for maximum access to the IC table. This is only if they're unsupported by an Inquisitor though, as you need dice to offset BS3.

 

For Inquisitor led shooting henchmen, I prefer bolter acos for the cheap price and stock up a bit more on the special/heavy weapons, as they become less prone to blowing up in my face/stop functioning altogether.

 

Hotshot lasguns are extremely specialized in killing marines, and even that's a risky proposition. You're putting less wounds on them and still giving them cover saves, while reducing your damage output against Xenos troops and Terminator armored units. In a straight up cost-to-benefit analysis, Bolters and Storm Bolters win out, as they put out vastly higher amounts of damage against a wider range of targets for less points then the Lasgun.

 

So yeah, I wouldn't recommend Hotshot lasguns unless you play on the moon and only have MEQ opponents all the time.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Hotshot lasguns are extremely specialized in killing marines, and even that's a risky proposition. You're putting less wounds on them and still giving them cover saves, while reducing your damage output against Xenos troops and Terminator armored units ...

 

... So yeah, I wouldn't recommend Hotshot lasguns unless you play on the moon and only have MEQ opponents all the time.

I agree with part of this analysis. Cover does make a difference, however they aren't Marine-only weapons. They also do wonders against Eldar, Tau, Nobz, carapace armored guard, Chaos and all the varieties of regular Marines, and some Tyrannids. There's a lot of stuff with a 4+ or 3+ armor save that hot-shots will chew through.

 

That being said, if you have hordes of cover a flamer may be a better bet. It's all up to you and your game. I just see a lot of value to a hot-shot lasgun that most people seem to write off unnecessarily.

[spartan249]

There's also the HUGE issue of it's very limited range. Hot shot lasguns only begin outperforming Storm Bolters when the target is within 9", whereas Storm Bolters maintain full effectiveness out to 24". This creates issues when trying to successfully apply force, as shorter ranges create crowding issues and expose the shooting unit to bad positioning decisions in order to make the weapon upgrade worth the extra expenditure. This means that, over a typical battle progression, Storm Bolters will have almost twice as many opportunities to fire at full strength, inflicting more casualties over time then the single burst of rapid fire from the HS Lasguns.

 

Storm Bolters are cheaper, easier to use in battlefield conditions, and generate more wounds for targets to save, at the single cost of reduced AP capabilities. HS Lasguns generate dubious amounts of damage for 9 points per model, whereas 15 points buys you a lot more offensive capability that occupies the same range band and is useful vs a larger variety of targets (via Hammerhand/Might of Titan).