force weapon question

[Castellan Alaric]

i apologize if this is addressed or i'm just not seeing it, but i'm having some trouble understanding when to roll to activate my force weapons. so here's what i think and hopefully someone can point me in the right direction:

-i assault

-i hit

-i wound

-he rolls saves

-he fails saves and takes an unsaved wound

 

now, where does the activation come in? i know i need a warp charge, so no hammerhand from the squad beforehand, but if i have a justicar at i6 and he causes an unsaved wound, do i roll then to activate the units weapons? also, what about a challenge? can i force wep a dude 1v1? thanks for the help guys, i just need some clarification :lol:

[DK1]

The test is taken after the first wound is caused, so you hit, wound, he fails a save, then you take the test. If passed it makes all wounds inflicted that phase cause ID as long as they are force weapons.

[Castellan Alaric]

awesome, so i should have him roll saves 1 at a time so i can plan my psychic test out? thanks for the response DK1

[number6]

The test is taken after the first wound is caused, so you hit, wound, he fails a save, then you take the test. If passed it makes all wounds inflicted that phase cause ID as long as they are force weapons.

I know that's the usual way with individual force weapons, but it seems to me from reading the NFW rules in the GK codex that you are supposed to roll to activate force weapons before you take any swings.

[Castellan Alaric]

it does make more sense to use your warp charge to activate them before you swing at all number6. thanks for the perspective.

[Zeratul29]

No, its when the first unsaved wound is caused, then you activate force weapons and that wound and all others after that inflict instant death.

[thade]

No, its when the first unsaved wound is caused, then you activate force weapons and that wound and all others after that inflict instant death.

This is how I understood it as well. Codex not in hand, currentl, but this is definitely how I remember it.

[Castellan Alaric]

ok, so if i charge with bunches of attacks do i ask for him to do them one model at a time so i can see when i can activate them? thanks for the help guys

[DK1]

the way i do it is once he rolls the first set of saves and say 3 fail...i take my test and thos 3 cause ID...but in a tourny you would roll one at a time till one fails...its so your not taking a test if no wounds get through.

[thade]

Yea, I mean...there's no reason to not allow him to batch roll (the "fast dice option" I think it's called in the rulebook)...so if he has - just for example - a Paladin squad with all 2+/5++ saves and you drop three halberd wounds on him at I6, he can take his three 2+ saves in one cast. If he fails one of them, take your psychic test. Whatever model took that wound is going to suffer ID; for the rest of that combat round (assault phase) further wounds your NFW inflict also carry ID.

 

Consider that, had he rolled each 2+ one at a time, it would not have changed the result...but it would've dramatically slowed things down.

 

Any example I can think of where he'd need to take one save at a time is a consequence of mixed saves, where he wouldn't be able to batch-roll anyway.

[Castellan Alaric]

Thanks for the clarification guys! I think that batch rolling would be the best way to resolve it. after the first roll of saves, then roll for my psychic test and remove models if i pass, along with the rest if they don't have invul saves.

[King Willy]

To be honest I reckon you can just roll all the saves at once, if you are facing multi wound models, every wound will be killing a model.

 

Say you do 6 wounds on nobs, all identical wargear, he takes cybork invuln saves, fails 4, you activate force, kill 4 nobs.

whats so hard to understand about that.

[jeffersonian000]

For NFW, initiative order is key. The very first time a NFW attack causes an unsaved wound, you roll to activate. At that point and for all attacks after, all wounds caused are instant death wounds. This is one of the reasons why having a few NFH in your units is a good idea, to force a save early enough to allow all later attacks to be insta-death causing. The only difference between NFW and normal FW is how all NFW's in the unit get a chance to activate off of a single unsaved wound (regardless of which model in the unit caused that wound). The is also one of the reasons our Banner costs so much, bause with it we auto-pass the activation roll allowing us to simple expend a warp charge while bypassing the chance of perils.

 

So, for example, you have a 10-man Purifier squad with an attached GM with a MC NFH. On Initiative step 7, the GM attacks. If any of his attacks score an unsaved wound, the GM rolls to activate his NFW as well as the unit he is attached to rolls for their NFW. Now all of their attacks from that point on deal insta-death wounds.

 

The intention, as stated by GW, was allow us to not have to waste a power use on activating our force weapons when no wounds are caused. Unfortunately, like many of their rule intentions, its more confusing than helpful so some players.

 

SJ

[Castellan Alaric]

whats so hard to understand about that.

 

i don't really appreciate the snarkiness pal, but it's all about initiative STEPS, as @jeffersonian has stated. doing them in order could potentially cause more damage to the unit, knowing they are insta-death causing prior to wound rolling. this is why i take a justicar with a halberd in my squads, i6 with 3 attacks on the charge will let me activate most of the time, unless i use hammerhand/warp quake on my strikes. pretty much you just need the force weps on multi-wound models (nobs,ICs,pallies,etc)

 

thanks @jeff

[Aethernitas]

Another short question about force-weapons:

 

Does the Aegis armour work against Force weapons?

 

The rulebook states that no 'deny the witch' may be taken against the activation of force weapons. I guess the issue at stake is if a Force weapon activation counts as targeting the attacked unit. I would say no but our group of players can't really agree on that...

[RedemptionNL]

You basically answered your own question:

No, as both the Aegis and Deny the Witch only trigger when being targeted, while activating a force weapon doesn't target a specific unit. See it as a buff like Hammerhand.

[Aethernitas]

thx for the clarification ;)

[stephane4985]

The intention, as stated by GW, was allow us to not have to waste a power use on activating our force weapons when no wounds are caused. Unfortunately, like many of their rule intentions, its more confusing than helpful so some players.

 

SJ

 

 

I totally understand that and it seems to be a good reason.

 

As for the rest, I have yet to come up with a setup where activating after the first wounds or just batch-rolling the wounds and if one was cause, activating the weapons, would change the result.

 

Is there some case? Even with different init step, the result is still the same. Or am I wrong?

[jeffersonian000]

If all of your attacks are on the same initative step, and most likely your are speed rolling all of your attacks anyway, waiting for an armour save to fail before attempting to activate your NFWs is easy enough to do. Personally, if I know I'm going to attempt to activate my NFWs, I have already given up the option to use another psychic power that turn, so attempting to activate only after an unsaved wound occurs saves me from a potential Perils that might not have been. Very low chance, but that's about to only real benefit.

 

SJ

[Hidicul]

The only time I can think of where saves have to be rolled one at a time is when you face a dark eldar with a shadow field. Otherwise I say just batch roll it.

[Thaelion Hexis]

So, for example, you have a 10-man Purifier squad with an attached GM with a MC NFH. On Initiative step 7, the GM attacks. If any of his attacks score an unsaved wound, the GM rolls to activate his NFW as well as the unit he is attached to rolls for their NFW. Now all of their attacks from that point on deal insta-death wounds

 

I'm not entirely confident about that. I'm fairly certain the unit has to inflict it's own wound to activate their force weapons, the GM being a completely seperate entity.

[Castellan Alaric]

but if he's attached to the squad then the point is moot yes? same could be said of a brotherhood champion doing a rapier strike and activating his force sword at i10? maybe it is 2 different rolls, i'm the noob here ^_^

[number6]

So, for example, you have a 10-man Purifier squad with an attached GM with a MC NFH. On Initiative step 7, the GM attacks. If any of his attacks score an unsaved wound, the GM rolls to activate his NFW as well as the unit he is attached to rolls for their NFW. Now all of their attacks from that point on deal insta-death wounds

 

I'm not entirely confident about that. I'm fairly certain the unit has to inflict it's own wound to activate their force weapons, the GM being a completely seperate entity.

It goes for the entire unit; I am 99% certain of that.

 

By the way, good to see you again. ^_^

[Thaelion Hexis]

I guess if hammerhand stacks from characters... I'll have to find the book

 

By the way, good to see you again.

 

I've been to the far reaches of the galaxy, searching for relics and keeping a watchful eye on the more distant imperial remnants......

[thade]

They all share Hammerhand and multiple applications of Hammerhand in a unit (with ICs attached) all stack; the write-up for Hammerhand is pleasantly explicit about this.

 

If the Grand Master attached to a squad of GKT scores a wound, he is allowed to activate his Force Weapon...but that doesn't have any affect on the squad, or vice versa. I don't see why it would. :P The squad is treated as if it's "one psyker" due to Brotherhood of Psykers, but that rule doesn't bunch in ICs that attach to it. Maybe there's some confusion with Hammerhand and BoP?