TeaReks Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 There is a strong argument to leaving the champion nakked. With t5 and fnp though it may be worth it to consider tossing him a power axe. Most unit leaders aren't really that killy and even those that are probably will still wiff often enough to let a small cost upgrade be worth it. What do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plaguewolf Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I think they are absolutely worth spending some points on... I'm gonna give all my Champions powerfists.. but i have always had PF on my champions and squad leaders in any power armour army i have had.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Dave Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I think I'm going to try Power Mauls on my champs in my melta squads. I feel they need something with a little oomf, but fists just don't seem worth it if they have to challenge someone. On my objective camping plasma squad, though ... naked champ for sure. Can't hurt to just leave them with Poisoned attacks, since they shouldn't be in melee as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I think the majority of my Champions over the years have either had a Power Fist or Plague Sword... and I can't see that changing. I always like having a tough as nails character to pack that extra bit of a punch, that will also enable me to deal with whatever is coming at me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsoevil Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Plus, who wants to rip off powerfists at this point? I'd rather pay the cost than take the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Also our lower Initiative means that going last with the fists is not a big deal. We are already going last against MEQ, might as well get smashy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Dave Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Also our lower Initiative means that going last with the fists is not a big deal. We are already going last against MEQ, might as well get smashy! That's a good point. Not sure why I wasn't thinking that ... looking at cultist stats too much or something. Fists forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_f Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Also our lower Initiative means that going last with the fists is not a big deal. We are already going last against MEQ, might as well get smashy! That's a good point. Not sure why I wasn't thinking that ... looking at cultist stats too much or something. Fists forever. Im thinking Axe since its cheaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circus Nurgling Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I've been thinking that myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 For a brand new model, I'd go with axe & melta bomb. 5 points cheaper then fist but still makes you a threat to MCs, vehicles and terminators. Only real advantage of fist is instant kill T4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 The fist also penetrates vehicles better and wounds T4/5/6/7/8 a LOT easier than an axe. I agree with the above: fists forever. When you're used to seeing multiple T6 beasties across the table, the fist is much more loved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 The fist also penetrates vehicles better Does it? I haven't run the numbers but I'm feeling like AP1 and armorbane beat out a second attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 It's all in the hits, really. 1 Meltabomb attack = .66 average hits when vehicle moves 3 Powerfist hits = 2 average hits when vehicle moves vs AV10 MB = 3% glance, 97% penetrate PF = 17% glance, 67% penetrate, 17% fail vs AV11 MB = 6% glance, 92% penetrate, 3% fail PF = 17% glance, 50% pentetrate, 33% fail vs AV12 MB = 8% glance, 83% penetrate, 8% fail PF = 17% glance, 33% penetrate, 50% fail vs AV13 MB = 11% glance, 72% penetrate, 17% fail PF = 17% glance, 17% penetrate, 66% fail vs AV14 MB = 14% glance, 58% penetrate, 28% fail PF = 17% glance, 83% fail The MB then has a 50% chance of vehicle kill, while the PF has a 33% kill chance (67 and 50%, when open-topped). So, if I can haz right maths, it'd be: 32% chance for a charging MB to kill moving AV10, and 44% for a charging PF to kill moving AV10. 30% " " " " " ", and 30% " " " " " ". 27% " " " " " ", and 22% " " " " " ". 24% " " " " " ", and 11% " " " " " ". 13% " " " " " ", and 0%. If you want in think in terms of HP reduction (and kill), the PF generally wins out for bringing more attacks. I'd still rather wound T6 on a 2+ ;). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Interesting... I'll be honest and say that I'm glad the ol' fist isn't useless anymore. The way things tend to go, what was once the hotness ends up being garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Underbelly Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 In my plague marine squad with 2 plasma guns I was thinking of simply giving the unit champion a combi bolter and leaving his plague knife alone. It's worth bearing in mind he has three weapons... bolter, bolt pistol and plague knife. You're allowed to swap any or all of them so you could take a power axe for the bolt pistol and keep your plague knife and swap out your bolter for a combi flamer for instance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Interesting... I'll be honest and say that I'm glad the ol' fist isn't useless anymore. The way things tend to go, what was once the hotness ends up being garbage. It never was :blush: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I've been bringing a combo of Power Fists and Power Axes. Our Initiative is the pits anyhow, so does it really make a difference? I also have been taking Mutation on them, mainly to try it out but I've had some nasty results. Last game I played was +1 STR on a Power Fist, FNP on two of them (4+), and Shrouded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circus Nurgling Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I've been bringing a combo of Power Fists and Power Axes. Our Initiative is the pits anyhow, so does it really make a difference? I also have been taking Mutation on them, mainly to try it out but I've had some nasty results. Last game I played was +1 STR on a Power Fist, FNP on two of them (4+), and Shrouded. Where does it say that the boons stack? This happened to me, rolled FnP on the boon, but I just considered it a fail because I couldn't find anything that says it's a +1 if you already have the trait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Honestly, I just assumed... I could be wrong, but it would also make sense. Maybe they'll release a FAQ on it, but my friend and I had agreed it would most likely stack with any rules that would be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 You only get the benefits of any boon once; if you roll it again it's wasted. P.28. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circus Nurgling Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Thanks SH. "If a boon is rolled that the character already has, the roll has no effect". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Boo.... oh well. Would've been nice, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circus Nurgling Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Indeed. I'm missing the days of 4+ FnP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 True, but we HAVE become more durable now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskie Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 A long time ago when there was grand tournaments and I played in them with my all-Nurgle army and you got the free champ with 7 man squads. I would try to find the 5 points for melta bombs for some of my sit still and shoot plaguemarine squads. Obviously no upgrade but the extra attack is an option. But a number of games even at big tournaments, people have ignored the lone champ or the remnants of the squad and driven too close, only to have my Plaguemarines run out from behind a wall, charge up to the side of a tank and clamp a melta bomb on the side. All you need to do is destroy one tank in a tournament for a 5 point melta bomb to pay for itself. Plaguemarines had krak grenades in the last book, I built a champ model with four different grenades on his belt. Melta bomb + power weapon is cheaper than a power fist and is an expensive but valid option. Generally when you have 6 or 7 plaguemarine squads it is good idea to give each champ a lowly melta bomb with one or two being armed for assault, then spend all your points on power fists and then run a bunch of a naked champs. Visually I like all my models to look different, my first army list will have six differently armed Plaguemarine squads in it, so I can test, but I'm thinking Plasma will become a lot more popular again. I also am a fan of the combi-flamer on my champ. I have two champion models with powerfist and combi-flamer. This is very expensive so I usually run one champ like that and the rest considerably cheaper. I send the souped up champ where the fighting should be in a rhino generally or even a Landraider and the rest of the squads hold ground or provide cover support. I also use Elites and HQ to support my assault Plaguemarines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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