missing legions

[Student Of Dorn]

a year ago on a 40k website i read that one of the missing legions after the returned to terra that the legion went off on their own to find their primarch and no one has seen them since

We have been told many times in many different sources that all the legions had been reunited with their Primarch during the Crusade and that Alpharius was the last to have been found and given the nick name "The Last" so what you are saying does not fit

[Cactus]

a year ago on a 40k website i read that one of the missing legions after the returned to terra that the legion went off on their own to find their primarch and no one has seen them since

We have been told many times in many different sources that all the legions had been reunited with their Primarch during the Crusade and that Alpharius was the last to have been found and given the nick name "The Last" so what you are saying does not fit

Primarchs going missing later is not unprecendented. Khan, Russ, Corax...

 

I agree that particular account is certainly nonsense however.

[Ratboy1664]

I think a more interesting question is who knew about the existance of the 2nd + 11th Legions? Apparently the Primarchs do but what about their senior commamders such as the Mournival? What about all the people on Mars who built thousands of suits of armour bearing their livery? The Imperial Guard? Navy? General public?

[Conn Eremon]

I think a more interesting question is who knew about the existance of the 2nd + 11th Legions? Apparently the Primarchs do but what about their senior commamders such as the Mournival? What about all the people on Mars who built thousands of suits of armour bearing their livery? The Imperial Guard? Navy? General public?

 

That's the thing that always gets to me. The general public. Going by the Horus Heresy so far, the general public is very much aware of the Legions. Their identities, their character, all of that sort of thing. We have in one book a total dreg of society who barely gets himself sent off to a Imperial Fleet led by a Legion and he's fully aware of what his is known for, and what other Legions that others are being sent off to are, and which ones he was hoping for and others were hoping for. A guy whose origin makes him one of the likely totally ignorant Imperial citizens, but he knows a hell of a lot about the Legions. So pretty much everyone knew about the Legions. Which means they probably knew about the missing Legions as well. How does it not get spread out of control? I mean, look at humanity. No matter how powerful the dictator, if he says something that everyone knows should be forgotten, that piece of knowledge becomes enshrined and remembered forever. Burn all of the books? Easy to do in an ancient society where the total population connected to this information is rather small. The Imperium? No freaking way.

 

I'm not saying we should have normal people walking around saying "Hey, did you hear about Russ killing Geoffrega?" "SHHH! You're not s'posed to talk about that!" I want to keep these two as unknown as they can be. But it's a pretty big glaring hole if you say that nobody knows or mentions them, and yet everybody seems to know everything about all the rest, during the time in which the others were in living memory. Something like how those connected to a Legion didn't know jack about any of the Legions except when they were assigned to one and experienced it first hand would have been better. The remembrancers sent off only knew how many Legions there supposedly was, not who and what they were, until sent off for one. The Imperial Army just knew Astartes were going to take over their Fleets, and nothing else until they fought alongside them and learned. Talked to military men and women from other Fleets with their own experiences. That sort of thing. Since the two lost happened within these two centuries where only a small percentage of people had any connection to the Legions, they'd have virtually no information about them. And those that did were likely caught up in whatever happened to the lost. I doubt that the Imperial Army auxiliaries attached to the Fleets of the II and XI were just left out of it.

[Olis]

Well, with that to consider, I think that leaves two possible options. 1) The Primarchs were 'lost' before/very soon after they were reunited, thus the reason why little was spoken of them. What happened to the associated legionaries/Army units is another story, if there is one. Or, 2) the Emperor doesn't say to people "You must forget them." I like to think he's more canny than that. In all likelihood he'd managed to find an explanation where the Imperial populace universally wanted to forget them (and eventually did). How? You tell me.

[Ratboy1664]

I have always seen the Legions being very similar to the SAS in terms of public understanding, in that we know they exist and a couple of their famous actions but nothing detailled.

 

Also how did Big E explain discovering the Primarchs? "Look everyone, I found my son Sanguinius on a planet called Baal", "what was he doing there?", "well when he was a kid the chaos gods err, I mean, err, he was living with his mother".

[Soporific]

I would just like GW to give the Heresy authors carte blanch on the 2 missing legions. Allow them to each independently write a short novella on the fate of the 2 legions, package them all together. Call it "Tales From the Warp" or something cheesy like that. All of this under the notion that this isn't canon just scratching the fans' itch, and allowing the authors to blow off some steam by writing freely without worrying about the overall 40k story arc. This would give us, the fans, no real insight to the fate of the 2 legions. But we would sleep better at night for it. Plus it would make GW serious coin.

Then we could all argue over which fate we all liked the most. Because no matter what happens in the 40k universe someone is going to try arguing over it. ;)

 

Thats just my $0.02

 

You know, if it's not supposed to be part of the canon timeline anyway, then this can be taken even further.

 

Imagine this: a Black Library book, one that focuses on the endeavors of 2 all-new Primarchs and their Legions. One of them is explicitly mentioned to be the 2nd Legion.

 

Both new Primarchs get some proper characterisation; the story gives some nice juicy bits of info on their homeworlds, personal history, how the Emperor recovered them, how they got along with their respective Legions, etc.

 

The Legions likewise get some time in the limelight; the story mentions a few prominent characters in each Legion, and it gives some tidbits on the Legions' history, symbols, livery, etc.

 

And then, right at the end of the story, it is casually revealed what the number of the other Legion is: the 5th Legion.

 

Or the 1st Legion, or the 8th Legion, or the 17th Legion - the number doesn't even matter, as long as it's clearly not 11. It just needs to get the point across that the whole thing is taking place in a different timeline where the set of Primarchs is partially (or even entirely) different.

 

Sure, the fans would feel trolled - but it'd also give them a slew of new ideas to latch on to. People would start doing all sorts of speculation about this new non-canon 40K timeline. They'd start painting their Marines in the new armies' colour schemes. And then they'd let their creative juices flow and use this non-canon timeline as a basis or template for their own alternate timelines.

 

It'd generate loads and loads of publicity and creativity (not to mention money), all without actually saying anything at all about the missing Legions in canon.

[frostclaw222]

What we know is this (and please correct me if someone has alternative/better facts):

 

1) The two unknown primarchs were, in fact, found.

2) There were two other legions, but they are now gone. Rumors amongst some line and mid-grade astartes points to them being possibly absorbed by the Ultramarines, but this is just that: rumor.

3) The primarchs and some of their elite troops know of the two mystery primarchs, and have been forbidden to speak of them by edict of the Emperor himself.

4) Astartes supposedly has never fought astartes prior to the Heresy (although some rumors persist that the Wolves did indeed once in the past come to blows with another group of astartes).

5) The primarchs know little to nothing in some cases of Chaos, but in others, they know a little more, but still don't know all.

6) The Emperor expunged the two unknown legions and primarchs from all databases and archives. He retroactively removed them from history itself, and did so pretty darn thoroughly. The Traitor Legions, however, having fallen to Chaos had their homeworlds classified and exterminatus rained down upon them, but otherwise remain known (although how known depends on who you ask...by the time of Emperor's Gift, it seems the very existence of daemon primarchs is a closely-guarded secret of the Grey Knights and Inquisition, but Logan Grimnar knows precisely what he's up against, in order to send word to Titan to ask them to bring the psycannon rain).

7) Sanguinius and Horus in Fear to Tread have a conversation wherein Sanguinius expresses concern that a flaw in the Blood Angels' genecode could be grounds for expunging the legion from the rolls, and allusions are made to the unknown primarchs/legions.

8) Whatever happened to them, it's a done deal, and there's no taking it back. Roboute and Malcador have a conversation where this if fairly emphatically stated, and if anyone's going to know, it's the Praetorian and first High Lord of Terra.

 

Therefore, it is likely that at least one of the legions fell to serious mutation at some point after their primarch was discovered, and that the primarch was complicit/involved in some way that mandated his destruction as well. Rampant mutation of a sort worse than the fleshchange that plagued the Thousand Sons (which might also explain the anti-Thousand Sons sentiment, if there was a precedent, even if it was taboo, that those in-the-know saw and feared with ample justification). Whether they were exterminated by the Wolves or not is open to conjecture, but the rumor that the Wolves have gone to war with astartes before suggests it. It could just as well be the legion degenerated, the primarch didn't, and the Wolves were there to put down the mutants, but the primarch stood between them. So, they technically weren't fighting astartes (mutation too extreme) but also did kill a primarch. It has seemed even outside Prospero Burns, that the Wolves are the ones who believe most easily that a primarch can in fact be killed. Whether this is due to their way of making war forcing them to recognize such things in a more practical light or the fact that they've seen a primarch die is open to conjecture.

 

In order to shore up the now-they're-Ultramarines rumor, the other instance may have involved a defective primarch. Perhaps this one fell to Chaos almost immediately, and was already a daemon prince when the Emperor found him. Primarch irrevocably lost? Kill him, recoup the astartes and assign them to a new legion. Or, by the same token, it might not have been Chaos influence, but xenos. Perhaps the Eldar got hold of one and got him on-side with their perspective, to the point where the primarch said "Dad, you're not just wrong, you're dangerously wrong, and I'm not going to help. In fact, I'll fight you." Again, kill primarch and reorg legion under another son.

 

Honestly, there's just enough in the BL stuff to this point to construct a tenuous hypothetical narrative, and I think that's plenty sufficient to the task. More would actually be less. I do, however, share AD-B's concern that certain Space Wolves stuff has gone hyperbolic, and I think it needs to be clarified, without just declaring it all malarkey, and the ambiguity with respect to the two missing primarchs and legions does that without saying anything definitive.

 

So, yeah. I don't want much more detail on the missing primarchs. But I would like to see the Wolves-as-executioners stuff dealt with in a delicate, definitive way, so that those who like/believe that line of reasoning are satisfied, but those who question it due to such things as astartes-have-never-fought-astartes-before have a leg to stand on, too.

 

Throughout this whole post, I've seen the image of Malcador on his throne with the two skulls on the arm rests in my head. It's the cover of something coming down the pipe from Black Library, I think. I pray that the author handles this stuff smoothly and elegantly. I don't want all the answers; I just want this Space Wolves stuff handled appropriately, so we can let it die.

[Olis]

Very well put frostclaw. I think you've pretty much got the facts straight there.

[Verythrax Draconis]

Maybe one of them is Malice now :lol:

[Verythrax Draconis]

Maybe one of them is Malice now :lol:

 

here is an old discussion, where we delve on all aspects of it, I believe: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...hrax&st=100

[Student Of Dorn]

8) Whatever happened to them, it's a done deal, and there's no taking it back. Roboute and Malcador have a conversation where this if fairly emphatically stated, and if anyone's going to know, it's the Praetorian and first High Lord of Terra.

Don't you mean Rogal Dorn not Roboute

[frostclaw222]

I do indeed, Student. Thanks for the correction. Roboute's still on Ultramar; it is in fact Rogal that discusses the situation of being two primarchs further down than they could have been with Malcador, then gets told to shush.

[Never_born]

Hi folks. New to B&C, but I've been following some of the threads for a little while. Having just returned from the BL Weekender it's probably worth noting that the one time I heard someone bring up the lost/missing Primarchs in a seminar the result was a collective groan from the panel followed by a fairly firm statement effectively saying "Not going to happen. Ever." While I wouldn't suggest that be taken completely at face value (several times panel members categorically refuted the idea of producing Horus Heresy graphic novels, only to reveal one later on) it does suggest that BL is likely to do little more than drop hints now and then.

 

While on the topic of hints, I'm a little over halfway through Angel Exterminatus and have come across what could be a veiled reference to this topic. I'm not sure how to add spoiler tags so won't add the direct quote (isn't really a spoiler as it's not of great relevance to the plot, but just in case) but for those of you who have the novel I would direct you to the line third from bottom of page 275. Perhaps I'm inferring where no reference was intended, but it made me think "Well, maybe..."

 

Anyone else see this and think the same thing?

 

Cheers.

 

M.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Let's not forget Primarch Rubinek and his Iron Hearts, and Primarch Sigmar and his Valedictors :blink:

[Augustus]

Something I think is relevant to this discussion:

From Deliverance Lost

 

‘Yes, you have brothers,’ said the Emperor, smiling at his son’s delight. ‘Seventeen of them. You are the primarchs, my finest creations.’

‘Seventeen?’ Corvus asked, confused. ‘I remember that I was number nineteen. How can that be so?’

The Emperor’s expression grew bleak, filled with deep sorrow. He looked away as he replied.

‘The other two,’ he said. ‘That is a conversation for another day.’

.....

How many of my brothers have you found?’

‘Most of them,’ replied the Emperor.

 

It seems that the Emperor knew he would fine the other primarchs after Corax to be alive and well and that something in the Emperors Psychic sight told him that the two missing primarchs are just not going to be found?

[KarkassBC]

Hi folks. New to B&C, but I've been following some of the threads for a little while. Having just returned from the BL Weekender it's probably worth noting that the one time I heard someone bring up the lost/missing Primarchs in a seminar the result was a collective groan from the panel followed by a fairly firm statement effectively saying "Not going to happen. Ever." While I wouldn't suggest that be taken completely at face value (several times panel members categorically refuted the idea of producing Horus Heresy graphic novels, only to reveal one later on) it does suggest that BL is likely to do little more than drop hints now and then.

 

While on the topic of hints, I'm a little over halfway through Angel Exterminatus and have come across what could be a veiled reference to this topic. I'm not sure how to add spoiler tags so won't add the direct quote (isn't really a spoiler as it's not of great relevance to the plot, but just in case) but for those of you who have the novel I would direct you to the line third from bottom of page 275. Perhaps I'm inferring where no reference was intended, but it made me think "Well, maybe..."

 

Anyone else see this and think the same thing?

 

Cheers.

 

M.

 

Hi, welcome on board.

 

Many hints are given about the two missing Legions but I hope the BL will never wrote anything on it... maybe give some words in every book, in order to raise some questions amongst the fanbase... but nothing more... I prefer that way, leaving the mistery for ever.

 

My personal idea is that one became a mighty mindless chaos spawn and another created a personal empire in which every men or women were slaves.

 

@Augustus

But if he knew about the impossibility to found them he would mourned them not erased from memories... He could have spoken of them telling "we need to stay together, or alone, even strong and mighty, we will fail".

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

its been a while this topic died died no matter and the space wolves bieng executioner before prospero is true

 

in prospero burns page 219,

 

'when the Allfather sired his pups,' said the priest, 'He gave each one of them a different wyrd. Each one has a different life to make. One to be the heir to the Emperors throne. One to fortify the defences of the imperium. One to guard hearth. one to watch the distant perimeter. One to command the armies. One to control control intelligence. you see, skjald? You see how simple it is? So what is the Wolf King's wyrd, Heoroth Longfang? he asked. what life did the Allfather choose for him. Executioner

[KarkassBC]

At the same time it's possible to reply two points

 

1. It's the opinion of a Space Wolves about his Legion... better to have a neutral opinion

 

2. Maybe the Emperor had a project for every Primarch, but no one said when this task would start... probably it's true that the one given to Russ was Executioner, but no one said he has already done an execution.

 

To try to capture Magnus (or kill him) he needed his entire Legion, the help of Custodes and Silent Sisters and Magnus himself.

 

And the TS was the smallest Legion...

 

 

For me the real Executioner would be Curze not Russ...

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

how so you have me interested

[Artein]

For me the real Executioner would be Curze not Russ...

If such roles were indeed designed by the Emperor then I believe (after Prince of Crows) that Curze would be Judge.

[KarkassBC]

For me the real Executioner would be Curze not Russ...

If such roles were indeed designed by the Emperor then I believe (after Prince of Crows) that Curze would be Judge.

 

Maybe you're right... he allowed M'Shen, the Inquisition agent, to kill him... he declared himself guilty of treason against the Emperor.

 

Speaking about the "executioner tale" on the Space Wolves, there is a part in "A Thousand Sons" were Magnus and Mortarion spoke about a past event, few hours before the Ullanor Triumph... (p.231)

 

“A great day is it not? Nine sons of the Emperor gathered together on one world, such a thing has not happened since…”

“I know well when it was, Magnus,” said Mortarion, his voice robust and resolute in contrast to his pallid features. “And the Emperor forbade us to speak of it again. Do you disobey that command?”...

[The_son_of_Dorn]

My (pure fan) theory, is that one legion went mental (number 11 as that is the number aligned to malal) 'enlightened' by his touch he saw the Primarchs for what they would become, and the war that would consume the astartees and the human race, using this he groomed his own legion into a chaos aligned one, turning first on his brother legion (the 2nd legion)

 

after catching their legion of guard or betraying them he decimated them, resulting in what ever forces could be mustered taking them down (while Horus and the other legions united with their primarchs are on their crusade), under the Emperors command he uses a legion with or without their Primarch ( I like to think the Emperors children as this would justify their 'accident' and their name and so suitably given the emperors own aquila ) and calls for aid (perhaps Dorn being his Praetorian if he was around at this time) and goes to war to destroy his son, after the gruesome battle all records are simply sealed or the legions were not yet big enough to of launched a major campaign.

 

Something along those lines, would require alot of justification.

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

nice theory brother

 

but nine sons were found that at the time as karkass has just showed us

[Olis]

nice theory brother

 

but nine sons were found that at the time as karkass has just showed us

 

At least nine. All we know from the quote is that Mortarion and Mangus were with seven other brothers on a particular world where whatever happened was forbidden to be talked of by the big man himself. There could very well have been several other brothers around at the time elsewhere. We won't know either way from the passage and, more than likely, will never know.