missing legions

[Conn Eremon]

Actually, potentially less than nine. Magnus is talking to Mortarion at Ullanor (going by the fact that he says the day is rather than was), where nine Primarchs are in attendance. At that time, all Primarchs have been found. Alpharius was the last, and the events of Legion take place at the same time as Ullanor. The Commander of the Imperial forces mentions that as a means to drive his forces to greater success. The Emperor fights alongside Horus against the green hordes at Ullanor. So by then, since Alpharius was the last to be found, all had been found. And other Primarchs mention that they were elsewhere as well, throughout the series.

 

However, Magnus and Mortarion are talking about an incident before Ullanor. They are remiscing. At least Magnus and Mortarion had been found at that time because they were present, but they don't mention who else. All they say is that there was a great showing of Primarchs, that included those two and one of the Lost (maybe not both since they're described as having 'separate tragedies'), the Emperor, and at least enough other Primarchs to be comparable to Ullanor's nine. That could mean six, seven Primarchs, or it could mean twelve, thirteen. Who knows? All present could be all thus discovered or just a portion, like Ullanor was. Rogal Dorn was present for one, but it might not have been the same as the one Magnus and Mortarion were present for. Until others mention that they were present at that time, we'll never really know. We know thanks to Deliverance Lost that some Primarchs had not been found yet. So it definitely occured pre-Ullanor, because by then all had been found. Corax wasn't there, and by extension Alpharius wasn't either. It should also be noted that the two don't specify that they were there. They merely state that an event occured and show a knowledge of who was present and what was said. It's possible that they weren't there, but know of it because the Emperor had to approach all of his sons about it who had been discovered and knew of the lost brothers but might not have been present at that gathering. Really, it's a masterful way of hinting at something without saying a dang thing. Everything it could imply might also imply something else entirely.

 

It's good that we know that Alpharius was the last and Horus was the first. Because with that, we know that if Horus wasn't present or found yet, no Primarchs have been. If Alpharius was around by that point, all Primarchs were around at that point, but the other two were already lost. It gives us a beginning and end framework with which to work with, but that's really all we have. And to all accounts, that's all we're likely to get. Thank goodness. I like hearing this tidbits, but I don't want to know anything about them. I want them to remain as they are.

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

true but at least we know for sure it during at least between 50- 125 years in the great crusade

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

Dorn became the seventh of the twenty Primarchs who had been found by their father.

[Olis]

true but at least we know for sure it during at least between 50- 125 years in the great crusade

 

No, we can't. We can only speculate as dates were never specified.

 

Dorn became the seventh of the twenty Primarchs who had been found by their father.

 

And where did you hear that? He the Primarch to the Seventh Legion, granted, but nowhere, afaik, does it say he was the seventh son found. Horus was the first Primarch to be found and yet his Legion is the Sixteenth.

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

i swear u try argue with me every time that i found on wiki

[Olis]

i swear u try argue with me every time that i found on wiki

 

Sorry to say, but wikis are not reliable sources. Good for boning up on the broad strokes of the setting but the details aren't reliable enough to trust as a source. And the reason why I 'argue'? Because I disagree with what you say, when I post, and can prove my case/point. It also tends to be a sad case of someone-on-the-internet-is-wrong-and-I-must-say-something. Or, at least it is today. :lol:

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

i didnt even say i was right or wrong i said thats my bloody point of view

[Olis]

You don't have to admit whether you are wrong or not for someone to point it out. I'm leaving this here. I'm afraid this will just descend into flaming otherwise.

[Artein]

I know that Deathwatch writes in the most ugly and unreadable manner but I believe that he's correct about Dorn being found as a 7th Primarch....

 

Shadows of Treachery, page 154, The Lightning Tower, line 5:

"Dorn had been the seventh lost son to be reclaimed."

[Olis]

Fair enough, I haven't read that yet. Although I'd like to read the book first, I'll happily concede the point since a source was provided. :down:

[Conn Eremon]

It's always possible that his Legion number coincides with his order of discovery. It'd be a major coincidence.

 

But Olisredan is right that the Legion number doesn't mean by itself that they were found in that order. and you can't fault him for thinking that might have been the issue. But, Alpharius proves that they can coincide. He's the last Primarch, XX, and the last Primarch found. So there's certainly precedent. But the Lion proves it's not always a match as he's the I Primarch, but Horus was the first found. So it's certainly possible that Rogal Dorn was the VII Primarch and the seventh Primarch discovered, with those precedents set. With that quote being as it is (which, by the by, makes me think that the author thought that the Legion number was the same as the discovery order. Certainly precedent for that, just look at Primarch Rubicek or whatever his name was), Rogal Dorn may very well have been.

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

true but at least we know for sure it during at least between 50- 125 years in the great crusade

 

No, we can't. We can only speculate as dates were never specified.

 

Dorn became the seventh of the twenty Primarchs who had been found by their father.

 

And where did you hear that? He the Primarch to the Seventh Legion, granted, but nowhere, afaik, does it say he was the seventh son found. Horus was the first Primarch to be found and yet his Legion is the Sixteenth.

 

 

yes we can cause horus was the first son found and i cant remember which book but it said he was alone with the emperor for 30 years and we know at least nine sons were present at the time it would have to be around 50-125

years

[Emperor's Furor]

Deathwatch and other RPG type books should really be taken with a pinch of salt, there's a lot of things they contradict as well as basing things on ancient lore than's probably been altered since.

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded

 

in this quote are they talking about statues or could it be the primarchs in a stasis field or do i just have a imagination thats confusing lol?

[The Colossus]

The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded

 

in this quote are they talking about statues or could it be the primarchs in a stasis field or do i just have a imagination thats confusing lol?

 

It's statues.

[Mantras]

As was eluded to earlier, for me, there is one glaring point that has yet to be addressed. The Emperor, beloved by all, expunged all evidence of the two missing legions. Yet, and rather blindingly obvious, kept the original Legion Designation Numbers. As we have seen in numerous examples, Imperial Army commanders know these numerical designations, as do people like those who live in Monarchia. Therefore, it wouldn't take much for a vast swathe of Imperial citizens to ask the simple question of "Hang on, the Alpha Legion is Number 20? What happened to Number 2 and Number 11?" Why go to the effort of expunging them and not re-assigning the numbers to make only 18?

 

For me, this would indicate some Olisredan hinted at, that the Emperor found a way of making everyone not want to question it. The easiest way would be to say "We just haven't found the 2nd and 11th Primarchs, yet", and then letting the other Primarchs and some senior Legiones Astartes know that they never would be.

[KarkassBC]

The simple reason is no one want to take the name or the number of a doomed unit.

 

Every member is proud of his Legion and don't want to share with the history of the others. More if the others are tainted from a bad event that no one want to speak.

 

I will not accept to take the number of a Legion declared excommunicated by the Emperor.

 

 

In another way keep two Legion with the same number, the old and the new, will only create confusion in the Imperium.

[Mantras]

So in the Imperial Truth world of 30k, superstition meant that a secret the Emperor wanted to hide wasn't? I don't buy that. Soliders do as ordered, Astartes even more so.

[KarkassBC]

Unfortunately, the final effect would be the same, because the following Legion, the Emperor's Children and the World Eaters, became excommunicated traitors.

 

Sincerely I thought about the Roman Legion idea... sometimes a destroyed Legion was rebuilt, because fought against a larger army but showed its courage and valour... others disbanded for cowardice were never rebuilt.

[Mantras]

I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. What I meant was that, given the lengths the Emperor, beloved by all, went to hide the existence and eventual fates of Primarchs #2 and #11, by not renumbering the legions, it made it plainly obvious to all that 2 were missing. If the Alpha Legion were legion #25. we would all be wondering about the 7 missing Primarchs.

 

What confuses me more is that, as numerous HH books demonstrate, Imperial Commanders are aware of the individual Legion's Numerical Designations, as as citizens of numerous worlds being brought into compliance. As it has piqued our own interest, I feel the same would occur in the world of 30k.

 

And in relation to the practicalities of reassigning the numbers of Primarchs, and legions, its not the name they are taking, just the number. So Legion Number 20 is not regarded as treasonous, but it is the Alpha Legion who are (if you get my point). A number is just a number, not ideology or modus operandi attached to it, and in the secular Imperium of 30k, I can't see why the Big E would flinch at reassigning Corax to #2 and Alpharius to #11, to make everyone think there only ever was 18 primarchs.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Soliders do as ordered...

 

 

I guess you don't know many soldiers then -_- ;) :lol:

[Conn Eremon]

I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. What I meant was that, given the lengths the Emperor, beloved by all, went to hide the existence and eventual fates of Primarchs #2 and #11, by not renumbering the legions, it made it plainly obvious to all that 2 were missing. If the Alpha Legion were legion #25. we would all be wondering about the 7 missing Primarchs.

 

What confuses me more is that, as numerous HH books demonstrate, Imperial Commanders are aware of the individual Legion's Numerical Designations, as as citizens of numerous worlds being brought into compliance. As it has piqued our own interest, I feel the same would occur in the world of 30k.

 

And in relation to the practicalities of reassigning the numbers of Primarchs, and legions, its not the name they are taking, just the number. So Legion Number 20 is not regarded as treasonous, but it is the Alpha Legion who are (if you get my point). A number is just a number, not ideology or modus operandi attached to it, and in the secular Imperium of 30k, I can't see why the Big E would flinch at reassigning Corax to #2 and Alpharius to #11, to make everyone think there only ever was 18 primarchs.

 

The main reason why he didn't is because that's not what the developers wanted to use those Legions for. They're a reference to how old Roman Legions operated, how they could be expunged from history. Nobody ever takes their number. You don't talk about them. Pretty quickly, with all written records erased and all talk about them ceased, successive generations know absolutely nothing more than an absence. That's all they become. An absence people in the know are dimly aware of.

 

The issue with translating that to 40k is that we have people living far longer than the timeframe given, more records than could possibly be expunged and far, far more people to keep quiet about it. So it's not an easy transition, it doesn't completely make sense. But it didn't have to, that wasn't the point. Especially back when this time period was murky anyways. But the feel remains the same. II and XI Legions are nothing more than absences that people in the know are dimly aware of.

[Batweb]

Even in our day military formations and organisations evolve leaving the numbering system appearing somewhat random.

 

Take the Royal Marines for example making up that organisation you have:

 

40 Commando Royal Marines

42 Commando Royal Marines

45 Commando Royal Marines

43 Commando fleet protection group Royal Marines

1 Assault group Royal Marines

as well as logistics and other specialist groups. These in turn are a part of 3 Commando brigade.

 

Based on that are we to assume there are 2 other Commando brigades just because of the numbering? or indeed 39 other Commandos? Because there are not, the other units did exist during the 2nd world war but were eventually disbanded however the numbering system was not reset to reflect this.

 

Considering the vast size of the crusade era Imperial military I wouldn't of thought gaps in numbering or strange numbering conventions wouldn't be obvious or suspicious to the average imperial citizen.

[ZAChos]

"What about the second legion commander? What are they?"

 

"Oh, they screwed up, and now no-one talks about them."

 

"What did they do? What happened to them?"

 

"No One Talks About Them. Now get on with your job."

 

"Sir, Yes Sir!"

 

"Oh, and Sergeant?"

 

"Yes Sir?"

 

"Don't screw up..."

 

 

 

Having the empty plinths reminds people that punishment is possible, real and complete. The Emperor doesn't want people to not be aware they were punished, but the punishment is being struck from the records.

[Mantras]

I understand what you guys are saying about modern day military unit designations, and the Roman Legions. I actually come from a long history (4 generations now) of Armed Forces serving personnel.

 

But I think this is different. The Legions Astartes were not just a unit, even a "special forces unit". How many units today have specially created, gene forged demi-gods designed to lead them in battle? As I see it, the legions take their numbers from their respective Primarch (Lion El'Johnson was #1, so the DA are #1 and so on).

 

I just think it is weird is all. It has always bothered me about the general population of the Imperium having varying degrees of historical knowledge. I was just reading the Ravenor Trilogy, where under interogtaion, a hench man of Molotch says he is Horus reincarnated, and yet in other books people are shocked to learn Space Marines could ever turn traitor. I guess ADB's answer would be that certain worlds knew certain things (Cadia for example) and others not so much. Oh well