missing legions

[Nehekhare]

On p. 247 of the first heretic, Argel Tal and the other Word Bearers of the later Gal Vorbak visit the Primarch chamber on Terra in a vision similar (or rather, prior, as they destroy the geller field generator there) to that of Horus in false gods. They see the 11th primarch, "still innocent, still pure", sleeping in his pod and reflect whether or not to end him with a sword thrust to "unwrite a shameful future" and "deny the Ultramarines a significant boost in recruitment numbers" (albeit the latter is stated to be a rumour. Nevertheless, "the XIII definately swelled to eclipse all other Legions around the time the II and XI were 'forgotten' by imperial archives").

[KarkassBC]

I believe more in the selection process of the Ultramarines... they created a great number of healthy and prosperous systems and in that way a huge selection of possible candidates. Not recruiting from a single world it's for me the real difference.

 

The idea of the disappearing of II and XI astartes and the growing number of the XIII is given by a Word Bearer not a neutral witness. They disliked the Ultramarines and after Khur they hated them. So spreading bad news about them it's a possible biased view.

 

Different situation if the idea come from another astartes belonging to a Legion neutral or positive towards the Ultramarines.

 

I deeply doubt if the Emperor destroyed the two missing Primarchs, he allowed to use the progenoids glands in other Legions. The easiest outcomes will be: destroy everything or seal them in a secret vault hidden on Terra... not used in a good Legion with the risk to spread the corruption.

 

this is only my thought

[Nehekhare]

Different situation if the idea come from another astartes belonging to a Legion neutral or positive towards the Ultramarines.

 

different bias, but same situation. the interesting part isn't the "rumour", but the fact of synchronicity given to support it, and their witnessing of the actual happening (Lorgar having been "heartbroken") as shameful.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Yes, but the author who really introduced that discounted it. While yes, canon is still loose in 40k, I don't think the missing legions were folded into the Ultramarines.

[Spacefrisian]

Since gw has Necrons and Blood Angels go buddy buddy and Grey Knight slaughter Sisters of battle so they can take a bath in their blood (like true servants of Khorne do) i think they should let a story be written about what has happened to them and what their legion names were.

 

Speaking of the Greyknights Khorne tastes, when will some chapters be set upon them to have them expunged they seem to be corrupted by Khorne.

[Veteran Sergeant]

The important thing to note is that the stories tend to vary. Another thing that is important to note is that it is never stated that the Word Bearers in question actually witnessed the event, only that they understood that the Ultramarines got bigger around the same time.

 

But still, the argument stands that the Ultramarines have the purest gene seed in modern 40K, essentially unchanged from 30K. Having a giant influx of the progeny of another Primarch doesn't really make much sense. Those Marines I guess could have been used as fodder, expending them until they all died out. But part of what made the Ultramarines so successful was their replacement rates versus their lower casualty rates due to Guilliman's superior generalship and the higher quality of the Chapter Masters/Captains/Sergeants fostered under his tutelage. If the Emperor was actually going to fold a pile of expendable Marines into one of the Legions, the Ultramarines makes the least sense. Feed them to the Warhounds/World Eaters or the Space Wolves who would have had higher casualty rates.

 

In the end though, we really don't know enough about the timeline to make any real suppositions. We know that some of the Primarchs never even met their lost brothers (In Deliverance Lost, Corax talks about how the 2nd and 11th were gone before he was even found). So, the missing legions were long gone before the Great Crusade even got into full stride. This calls into question the veracity of the Word Bearers' suppositions even more.

 

But, the reason why all of these conflicts exist is because there is no actual fluff about what happened to the 2nd and 11th, so the authors are basically making :cuss up as they go along when they talk about them. And well, we've seen how painfully bad the editing process is at the Black Library (probably a byproduct of how fast they are trying to churn these things out). So if there are things that don't make sense when pasted together, well, that's probably why.

[Spacefrisian]

But still, the argument stands that the Ultramarines have the purest gene seed in modern 40K, essentially unchanged from 30K.

 

Sorry to burst that bubble but also Imperial Fists gene seed is pure, it is even considered to be more pure than those of the Ultra marines.

[Veteran Sergeant]

But still, the argument stands that the Ultramarines have the purest gene seed in modern 40K, essentially unchanged from 30K.

 

Sorry to burst that bubble but also Imperial Fists gene seed is pure, it is even considered to be more pure than those of the Ultra marines.

Yeah, you know, except all the missing organs.

 

:rolleyes:

[Spacefrisian]

You mean the toxic spitting?

[Olis]

But still, the argument stands that the Ultramarines have the purest gene seed in modern 40K, essentially unchanged from 30K.

 

Sorry to burst that bubble but also Imperial Fists gene seed is pure, it is even considered to be more pure than those of the Ultra marines.

Yeah, you know, except all the missing organs.

 

:rolleyes:

 

What, all two of them? :P

 

Neither of them are really that crucial, anyway. ;)

[Veteran Sergeant]

I couldn't remember the exact number and which ones, and it was irrelevant to the argument, lol.

 

Still, it's important to note that the Ultramarines gene seed is so pure and error/mutation free that the AdMech prefers it for new Chapters, and for that reason the Ultramarines geneseed accounts for more than 60% of all Space Marines. The Imperial Fists are less than 10% by all deductive math.

 

I don't really know where one might get the idea that the Imperial Fists had pure gene seed, let alone any time it would have been mentioned as the purest, or more pure than the Ultramarines. I mean, that bit of fluff is twenty years old. Almost as old as the fluff about gene seed in general.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yes, the Imperial Fists have incredibly pure geneseed... as long as you ignore the two glaring impurities/errors in it, and the possibility of their desire for martyrdom/masochism being geneseed-based. The Ultramarines, on the other hand, have every organ working at full capacity, and no psychological quirks associated with them.

 

Somehow, I don't buy the argument that the Fists have purer geneseed than the Ultramarines.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I mean, that bit of fluff is twenty years old. Almost as old as the fluff about gene seed in general.

GENE SPERRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[LostAlone]

Yes, the Imperial Fists have incredibly pure geneseed... as long as you ignore the two glaring impurities/errors in it, and the possibility of their desire for martyrdom/masochism being geneseed-based. The Ultramarines, on the other hand, have every organ working at full capacity, and no psychological quirks associated with them.

 

Somehow, I don't buy the argument that the Fists have purer geneseed than the Ultramarines.

 

I guess 'purity' depends on your point of view really, and the emperors actual plans for the Astartes once they had united the galaxy. The Ultramarines are in tip-top condition and are probably reasonably well rounded human beings. And if you think that the emperor intended there to be marines in human society after he had defeated chaos and conquered the galaxy (I mean marines are nigh-on immortal, and if the Emperor won then presumably there are some left when he's done), then they are certainly the best candidates for that. If you think marines were just a means to an end, warrior ascetics and nothing else, then almost any other chapters seed is a better choice. From frothing beserkers to warrior-monks, if you want a blunt instrument as the wrathful right-hand of god, then yeah... You have better choices than Guilliman's adaptable if doctrine bound fighting force.

 

And of course we have to remember that most of the 'flaws' that are apparent today absolutely were not apparent ten thousand years back. Were the marines even supposed to exist for that long ? Probably not. The fact that the Ultramarines have stayed 'pure' for so long is a fairly major miracle, and to be honest if you ask me proves that they probably had a wider selection of material to begin with (ie other legions folded into them) allowing them to remove flawed geneseed without noticeably reducing their stocks.

 

Purity is certainly not the only reason why the Ultramarines are so wide-spread now, it's more down to the Codex which gave Guilleman a lot more power. The Fists certainly could have been the template for all future marines... Dorn was the emperors body guard, and was well regarded enough to by considered for Warmaster, and had the Codex never existed, his legion may well have been the template. Similarly, there's a couple of times when the Blood Angels could have risen to the fore, either by Sanguinius becoming Warmaster, or by being merely viciously wounded by Horus instead of dying, or by dying less heroically but less painfully (cheap shot in the back). The red thirst was certainly not apparent to anyone at that time, and was not why they were ruled out. As an outside shot the Dark Angels could have taken that role too, if everything else stayed the same, but we forget the 'unfortunate' episode with Luthor. Johnson was a close friend of Guilleman and Dorn, and could easily have negotiated his way to being the leader.

[Mantras]

To be honest, I am of the view that the reason the Ultramarines geneseed makes up 60% of all chapters is that, firstly they were the largest legion at the time and therefore could break off and form the most new chapters, and secondly that it was Guilliman running the show. At that moment in time, how aware were they of instability?

 

Also, RE Imperial Fists, I am not sure why everyone thinks they are super stable. Nothing has even been said about the Dark Angels, White Scars or even Iron Hands having degenerative gene seed, whereas it is common fact the Fists have no Belcher's gland etc.

[KarkassBC]

The stories (or the books) so far describe the Ultramarine geneseed as the best to create a new Chapter. Maybe it would contain some little flaws but in comparison to the other is the best choice.

 

About the split of the Legions in Chapter, Guilliman needed to spread his Legion (probably going under 1000 marines at the start) because he need to show to his brothers the value of the project. If he keeped something, no one else would have followed him. He needed to give example with his Legion, so it's reasonable that the first Chapters made are from the Ultramarines

[Nehekhare]

alpha legion and word bearers had the purest and most stable geneseed of all in the beginning...

[Conn Eremon]

alpha legion and word bearers had the purest and most stable geneseed of all in the beginning...

 

 

Where is that stated? It does stand to reason that some of the Traitor Legions, like the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, had pure gene-seed prior to their corruption, but I've never heard those two stated as being such.

 

Come to think of it, the only other Legion besides the Ultramarines that I can think of that are of pure stability is the Dark Angels. Their geneseed is stated to be as pure as the Ultramarines, if I recall correctly. They're considered instable in other areas, though, which is why the Ultramarines' gene-seed still gets used the most. They're exceptionally secretive and unreliable. They're used more often than some others, but it sounds like the High Lords don't want the biggest faction of Chapters out there to disappear every time they get whiff of something that nobody else does, regardless of their genetic purity.

[Nehekhare]

oops, meant emperor's children and word bearers (called absolutely pure with loyality as a specific trait in the first heretic)

 

here's a nice compilation of traitor legion geneseed, courtesy of Nashtrickster:

 

Thousand Sons: Major genetic instability (A Thousand Sons) [i.e. lots of psykers, the flesh-change]

Word Bearers: Obscurantism/Obstinacy (Index Astartes IV, p.17 and The First Heretic)

Black Legion: greater number of Primarch look-alikes (Horus Rising and False Gods) [also, prone to mutation because of possession practices, see Heroes and Villains: Fabius Bile, White Dwarf UK278]

Emperor's Children: considered as one of the most stable and pure (Index Astartes I, p.28). However, their heavy use of drugs post-Heresy has revealed a flaw in the Catalepsean Node which was potentially kept dormant pre-Heresy by the greater care taken by their Apothecarion (Heroes and Villains: Fabius Bile, White Dwarf UK278)

Iron Warriors: Asynchronous Biscopea resulting in deformities of arms and legs (Heroes and Villains: Fabius Bile, White Dwarf UK278 and Index Astartes I, p.37) [also mentioned in deliverance lost to show dulled pain receptors: Take this one, sample four, as an indicator,' said the genetor majoris. 'We have managed to identify at least six unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others. In the same sample, there is a dearth of certain enhanced genes that, in our estimation, boost the cytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of nocireceptors and proprioceptory function'. they were meant for bionic implantation]

Night Lords: Stable, black eyes and pale skin, possible psychological effects (paranoia, autodestruction), Psyckers have visions (Index Astartes II, p.27). The visions could in fact be quite a rare phenomenon. (Soul Hunter, since this trait of the main character is exceptional enough that he's singled-out because of it.). Paricularly resistant to chaos-taint and mutation (Heroes and Villains: Fabius Bile, White Dwarf UK278)

 

furthermore, World Eaters were prone to frenzy even before the butcher's nails, while Death Guard were stoic and tougher: both Traits carried over to the cursed founding chapter minotaurs/sons of antaeus, which proposedly were created from WE/DG geneseed. Last but not least, Deliverance lost gives a hint about Alpha Legion: subject twenty, a whole suite of growth boosting augmentations is absent, i.e. smaller, suited for infiltration.

 

apart from that, we propably need a clear definition of what "pure" is supposed to mean. certain legion-specific traits could be considered intentional, after all, thus pure, even if individually different. Genetic "stability" is also mostly dependent on environmental influences (like radiation or warp exposure). Only the thousand sons and the wolves are known to be inherently prone to mutation, but with other benefits. while most other loyalist founding legions show some form of mutation (SW, RG after corax experiments), defunct organ (IF, Salamanders) or psychological affliction (IH, BA, propably WS), the Dark Angels and Ultramarines seeds are the least divergent today and considered "standart", which is mostly owed to efficient conservation practices (both came out of the heresy mostly intact) and isn't necessarily the same as being inherently "pure" or "stable".

[Hellios]

I've got to be honest and say that over the years I've seen a number of sources suggest that chapter X or Y is among the purest of all chapters or in fact the purest chapter. With UMs and DAs (out of the loyalists) being the two who are consistently mentioned as being pure or having no know issues as far as I can remember.

 

I also think the Alpha Legion are mentioned as being very good... This however could be due to Terran marines being superior to those made later.

[Conn Eremon]

Those are good points, Nehekare. But there are some things wrong that I've noticed, such as the Emperor's Children. They had a major genetic flaw, as bad as the Thousand Sons. Though we know what the Thousand Sons flaw was, we don't know what it was that had the Emperor's Children hurting. All we do know is that there was a great flaw, and it wasn't fixed or cured until Fulgrim was found and dedicated his attentions to it. Much like how Magnus did for his Legion, though again we know the specifics of his aid but not what Fulgrim did.

 

Another thing is that you sourced Deliverance Lost. And while that book did give a lot about genetic legacies, it was specifically referring to the Primarchs. And yes, the Legion gene-seed comes from their Primarch, but not all of the Primarch 'flaws' are in the Legion, and not all of the Legion flaws are in their Primarch. Magnus, for instance, never suffered the flesh-change. Russ was wolf-like, but I've never heard of a story where he has to struggle to keep from becoming a Wulfen. But we have one instance where we know there's a discrepancy between the two: the Alpha Legion. As that source states, the Primarch are missing some things and are, as such, smaller than your average Primarch. But the Legion itself isn't. Because they masquerade as their Primarch, who are still taller than tall Marines (we see two Marines masquerade as Alpharius, but are a tad shorter. And yet, they're both described as tall for a Marine). So the Legion doesn't suffer the same 'defect' as their Primarch does.

 

One last thing is that demeanor has little to do with their genetic heritage. That's a combination of their Terran warrior beliefs mixed with the influence of their Primarch and newly discovered Homeworld. The Thousand Sons are not curious about the Warp because of their genetic legacy, and the Night Lords don't go postal because of theirs.

 

As always, though, the definition of purity in terms of 40k Space Marine gene-seed is in comparison to the Ultramarines. They are the example given. How divergent a genetic legacy is to that of the Ultramarines' is the measure used to determine purity. We know this because we know the Ultramarines remain at the original baseline. Others have diverged away in varying degrees, but not the Ultramarines. However, you brought up what is 'standard' use, which has nothing to do with purity but politics. The most used are the most wanted, not the most pure. In the case of the Ultramarines, it's merely fortunate that they are pure, not because they are pure. They have the most at the beginning because of their size. They continue producing the most because of the favor they have with the powers that be. Likewise, the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels got hit hard during the Heresy, and had fewer to start with. But, they share in that favor and so are used far more often than others following that first batch. Dark Angels have the same purity of the Ultramarines, but aren't used as much as the relatively impure Imperial Fists and Blood Angels because they don't have that same amount of favor. With the Space Wolves, it's a mixture of lack of favor and purity, but with the Salamanders it's all purity. Raven Guard accidentally made themselves impure, but they still have a sizable chunk because they haven't exactly lost favor like the Dark Angels or Space Wolves have. So the first Chapters are based around who was the biggest Legion. The successive Chapters are based around who has the most favor.

 

Though I suppose others might use the term 'purity' to mean other things, when we're talking about the genetic legacies of the original Legions I can only assume we're referring specifically to their genetic purity. How close they are to the baseline.

[Nehekhare]

How divergent a genetic legacy is to that of the Ultramarines' is the measure used to determine purity. We know this because we know the Ultramarines remain at the original baseline.

 

that is circular logic: ultramarines are pure because pure means ultramarines. what is that "baseline" you're talking of?

 

purity means absence of contamination. contamination is something not original, something else. purity does not mean absence of flaws!

 

so, if you'd have to chose an "original" genetic sourcecode of which any impure mutations are derived, would that not be the emperor's own? but then each and every one of the legions are just an individual derivation, ultras no less than thousand sons. all of them are more or less pure, wheras the primarchs would set the standart for their genetic offspring. individuality is not a flaw. It may very well even been planned that way by the emperor, to create paragons of that which he embodies in its totality.

 

regarding the emperor's children, it was an accident that got geneseed destroyed, not contaminated - they had less material to create marines, but it wasn't flawed in any way, just lost. the geneseed itself was exeptionally stable, even more so than the UM.

 

Let's think about argel tal's rumour for a sec: assuming the UM assimilated 2 other legion. 3 indiviual derivations of a single source code mixed into one...would the outcome not be less divergent from the source, evening out by cross-referencing and counterbalance? I guess the UM-conglomerate may now be something akin to a "baseline" BECAUSE they are more of a mixture than their brothers who kept their individual eccentricities.

[Lord_Caerolion]

There is a baseline though: having all organs working fully. The Imperial Fists are missing two organs entirely, therefore their geneseed is not as pure as the geneseed of another Legion/Chapter. The Ultramarines have all organs working, and working at their full capabilities.

[Augustus]

I think it gives UM fans an excuse to why there are so many traitor chapters.

 

 

Oh..that UM geneseed came from the II or XI legions... ;D

[KarkassBC]

I think it gives UM fans an excuse to why there are so many traitor chapters.

 

 

Oh..that UM geneseed came from the II or XI legions... ;D

 

No they produced a lower cost "chinese" version of the organs... the High Lords of Terra bought with a very reduced prices... now the warranty is expired and starts to appear the defects.

 

When the Emperor was in charge this problem didn't appear... he used a high special laboratory on the home planet... it's the effect of "corruption" and the "worlds" economy... :(