missing legions

[Nehekhare]

The Ultramarines have all organs working, and working at their full capabilities.

 

How do you know what the full capacity is?

 

Is having a different skin color a deficiency?

 

How come every Legion has specific traits associated with them, which mostly come from a predisposition written into their genetic code, exept UM? Isn't blandness a deficiency compared to individual excellency?

 

One could argue their hypertrophe progenoid glances are able to reproduce faster, or are more combinable with other geneseed, which would be a beneficial mutation nonetheless, and not "purity".

 

It has nothing to do with purity, it's just politics.

[Raven Angel]

I finally got around to reading First Heretic and based on the information there I can draw the following conclusions with absolute certainty.

 

1 both the primarchs of the II and XI Legions are presumed dead if not known to be dead out right.

2 what ever calamity lead to this turn of events originated with the XIth primarch.

3 neither of these warriors are considered traitors by the other primarchs

4 warriors from both Legions survived this event but their ultimate fate is unknown to the other Legions

[Veteran Sergeant]

The Ultramarines have all organs working, and working at their full capabilities.

 

How do you know what the full capacity is?

Because Games Workshop has said so, very explicitly, and has used it as a reason why the AdMech continually relies on Ultramarine gene seed for most new foundings. I'm still failing to see why you're so emotionally invested in railing against the established canon.

 

Is having a different skin color a deficiency?

No, but it is a mutation/deviation seen by a society that knows how to replicate technology, but not truly innovate or even fully understand how the technology was originally devised. Since they don't know how the Space Marines were originally made, nor apparently have access to any of the original Primarch DNA, even a minor flaw is exacerbated.

 

How come every Legion has specific traits associated with them, which mostly come from a predisposition written into their genetic code, except UM? Isn't blandness a deficiency compared to individual excellency?

They don't. This is mostly your imagination from what I can tell. The War Hounds weren't angry psychopaths because of their gene seed. They were recruited from the more savage tribes the Emperor had pacified, and Angron made the World Eaters that way by jamming the Butcher's Nails into their heads. The Primarchs shaped their legions through their philosophies on training/indoctrination/etc. Not by genetic disposition. The Ultramarines are hardly bland, anyway. That's your perception as a gamer based on an apparent external bias. In the game universe, the Ultramarines who aren't subjected to being written as ancillary characters by Graham McNeill are amazing tacticians and battlefield innovators. They have a rich history and traditions. They might not have a cheap narrative trope like being vampires, or Furries (I mean Vikings), or Mongols, but that doesn't make them bland. In fact, the Ultramarines are probably the best examples of what Space Marines should be, and not some kind of average to create a baseline.

 

It has nothing to do with purity, it's just politics.

Actually, if politics were eliminated, it is likely that all new Chapters would be Ultramarines. Or, barring that, at least a mix of the three or four "pure" geneseed chapters simply to reduce the margin of error. The fact that there are any Imperial Fists or Blood Angels successors still being made as recently as the 21st Founding (Lamenters seem to be the "newest" BA chapter I could find, but I didn't look that hard) shows that there is some kind of political clout by those two Chapters to ensure that their flawed gene seed continues to be used to make at least some new Chapters. Otherwise, why would the AdMech even risk creating more unstable, blood hungry sociopaths as new Marines, instead of the more predictable, stable Ultramarines stock? I mean, creating a new chapter is an absurdly time consuming and expensive process when you think about the sheer amount of manpower, materials, ships, weaponry, vehicles, infrastructure, etc that would go into creating a Chapter from scratch. Why would they even risk that amount of capital on an unproven quantity if there weren't forces at work trying to ensure a distribution of genetic material from the less ideal original Legions? Chances are, the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels use their political capital as original legions and defenders of Terra to ensure the propagation of their gene seed more than the Ultramarines use politics to ensure that their gene seed continues to be the primary source material.

[Conn Eremon]

How divergent a genetic legacy is to that of the Ultramarines' is the measure used to determine purity. We know this because we know the Ultramarines remain at the original baseline.

 

that is circular logic: ultramarines are pure because pure means ultramarines. what is that "baseline" you're talking of?

 

purity means absence of contamination. contamination is something not original, something else. purity does not mean absence of flaws!

 

so, if you'd have to chose an "original" genetic sourcecode of which any impure mutations are derived, would that not be the emperor's own? but then each and every one of the legions are just an individual derivation, ultras no less than thousand sons. all of them are more or less pure, wheras the primarchs would set the standart for their genetic offspring. individuality is not a flaw. It may very well even been planned that way by the emperor, to create paragons of that which he embodies in its totality.

 

regarding the emperor's children, it was an accident that got geneseed destroyed, not contaminated - they had less material to create marines, but it wasn't flawed in any way, just lost. the geneseed itself was exeptionally stable, even more so than the UM.

 

Let's think about argel tal's rumour for a sec: assuming the UM assimilated 2 other legion. 3 indiviual derivations of a single source code mixed into one...would the outcome not be less divergent from the source, evening out by cross-referencing and counterbalance? I guess the UM-conglomerate may now be something akin to a "baseline" BECAUSE they are more of a mixture than their brothers who kept their individual eccentricities.

 

It is circular logic, but it isn't wrong. We know that the Ultramarines are considered the most pure because of their closeness to the baseline. They are blatantly labeled the most pure, no room for argument there. Though it's never stated what exactly the baseline is, the fact that the Ultramarines are stated to be just that gives us something to measure others against. If something deviates from the standards of the Ultramarines then it deviates from the baseline. And as I've already stated earlier, though the Primarchs have been shown to be uniquely crafted, nothing about the Legions shows the same individuality. The Thousand Sons are full of psykers because they recruit from a heavily populated psyker world. The Space Wolves are given something separate from their gene-seed that makes them different. All differences are based off of their demeanors or recruitments. Death Guard make themselves the way they are, it's not genetic. They pump up their immunities and tolerances by deliberately subjecting themselves to poisons. As someone already stated, the War Hounds' ferocity originated from their recruit stock. Genetically, all of the Legions seemed to be made from the same mold. As you would expect for something you want mass-produced. And the Ultramarines are considered to remain at that original state that almost all others have deviated from in some way or another. I say almost because, again, the Dark Angels are considered just as pure.

 

Anything else that causes a deviation, whether you want to consider it a flaw, an accident, a contamination, or individuality, removes them from this baseline, thereby making them impure in some way. I am using the words pure and impure not because I think the Ultramarines are the best of the best and all others fall below par, but because those are the words GW uses. The Ultramarines are considered pure, because they are the same as the baseline. Therefore, the baseline is the measure of 'purity.' Because the Ultramarines are genetically a match for the baseline, as it's stated repeatedly, the Ultramarines are also a measure of 'purity.' Though we don't know the specifics of what the baseline is, we do know the specifics of the Ultramarines. Anything that deviates from the standards of purity that the Ultramarines retain therefore deviates from the baseline, the standard for absolute genetic purity among the Marines. This has nothing to do with the merits of the other Legions and successive Chapters. Just as total purity is a characteristic of the Ultramarines and Dark Angels, so too are the impurities of the others characteristics of them.

 

As for what is more important, genetic purity or politics, I stand by what I originally put. Purity has a hand in it, but it ultimately comes down to politics on who is chosen for successive Chapters as well as number of material. Ultramarines make up the most Chapters because they have the largest stores of genetic material and they were the end-all, be-all Legion following the Heresy. The other two biggies following the Chapters, the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels, have politics on their side, but not purity or numbers. So while they are used often, they're not used as much as the Ultramarines. Those that do have purity or numbers on their side, but don't have the politics, like the Dark Angels and to a lesser extent White Scars, are used even less. Which implies heavily that, though purity and numbers are all part of it, politics is the biggest thing.

[KarkassBC]

Sincerely I don't think the "politics" is involved in the geneseed use. The Imperium is more or less described as a very conservative regime, in this way the good decision is always not making changes.

 

There are many reasons for a wide use of the Ultramarines geneseed, but the main is the stable gene. Remember, the technology is not more completely understood, so if there is a solution with less faults (and no one can remove those faults) this is the solution taken.

 

There is another reason why the Biologos continue to use secondary geneseeds like Blood Angels and Imperial Fists, even with some flaws more than the "Ultramarine" pattern... it's fear

 

not fear for give birth to a monstrous abomination, but the fear to create a huge army of soldiers loyal to only one Primarch... this is the risk in the use of only one template... maybe a future Heresy against Terra...

 

allowing a share of other Primarch-geneseed they would avoid to create an army loyally bonded to only one...

 

Dark Angels geneseed is probably put in the second choice list because many are suspicious about what happened to a great part of the Legion... even with very few information every one would guess the existence of a shadow over the Lion's lineage... so without further info the Biologos put this geneseed in the second group for fewer replication...

[Conn Eremon]

Most of those explanations you gave are political, though. The cause for Blood Angel, Imperial Fist, or Dark Angel gene-seed use is very political just by those explanations. The need to have a variety of loyalties or having a certain lack of trust, and having those things weigh in on the decision-making, are political and have nothing to do with genetic purity.

 

But more than anything else, the thing that sort of clinches it on what weighs most heavily, is a quote (and I know, I'm terrible at these sort of things and don't recall exact pages) in the C:SM, 5th Edition. I think it was in the Legion listing or in that area, but it explicitly states that it was fortunate that the Ultramarines were the most pure, because they were the most used. That outright states that Ultramarine purity had a lesser impact on gene-seed use. If it was what weighed the most, the phrase wouldn't be saying it's fortunate because it would be deliberately planned to be so. In that circumstance, it is likely that the biggest factor was Legion size, as it was referring to the first generation of Chapters being founded. However, it was undoubtedly political as well. The Ultramarines were far more willing to break apart into Chapters than other Legions. It was their Primarch's idea, after all. Those Legions that weren't as willing didn't break down into as many Chapters as they could have. The Space Wolves broke into two, but the one that bore the Legion name had more than a single Chapter's worth. The Black Templars are a single Chapter from that first split, from the Imperial Fists, but they have far, far more than a single Chapter's worth. Both of these Legions were against the Codex, and both created less Chapters not just because of diminished numbers but because they weren't willing to split down quite as far. That is political as well. So when it comes to the first split, the genetic purity was the least impactful factor going on at the time. And each successive Founding was based off of the first ones in many ways. Ultramarines represented 60% of the loyalist Marines post-Heresy, contribute 60% of the Imperium's total gene-seed stocks, and make up 60% of the Chapters down through the millennia. While genetic purity might, in varying degrees, weigh in on the matter, the ultimate deciding factor for Guilliman's genetic material's greater use is down to simple numbers. 60% of the gene-stock that can be used to create Chapters are of Guilliman, and is therefore used 60% of the time. For the rest, it seems to be more political. Though Dorn or Sanguinius didn't seem to have any more than the Khan did, they are used far more often because they have the higher favor. Dorn is the Imperium's defender and Sanguinius their martyr. Khan was a Primarch, and therefore high, high in standing, but not as high as those two. Though Khan's gene-seed is more pure than those two, those two are used more often. Not only is that a political reason, but it outweighs purity and numbers when going in the opposite direction.

[Nehekhare]

emotionally invested in railing against the established canon.

What? Is that supposed to be an argument ad hominem or just naive pretension that your personal interpretation was established canon? either way, it's not very polite.

 

The Ultramarines are hardly bland, anyway. That's your perception as a gamer based on an apparent external bias. [...] In fact, the Ultramarines are probably the best examples of what Space Marines should be, and not some kind of average to create a baseline.

yeah, talk about bias...

genetic disposition (read the fabius bile text) and recruitment habits (read horus heresy) all have their influence. All of the primarchs were master tacticians, horus much more so than roboute. To call anything genetically "pure" is -purely- bias if you don't know the original intend/source code - it may of course be in-game established imperial bias, which does not warrant a legitimacy to tranfer that over to a gamer's discussion from an external point of view.

 

why would the AdMech even risk creating more unstable, blood hungry sociopaths as new Marines, instead of the more predictable, stable Ultramarines stock?

They tried at least once with the 21st founding. Why did they? You tell me...

 

Genetically, all of the Legions seemed to be made from the same mold. As you would expect for something you want mass-produced. And the Ultramarines are considered to remain at that original state that almost all others have deviated from in some way or another.

I certainly see that second part as a measure to determine purity (remaining similar to the original because of either good external preservation/politics, internal genetic stability or luck avoiding contamination), but I disagree with the former assumption. Each of the primarchs showed distinct characteristics setting them apart from each other and from the only thing which could be considered their collective "mold" - the emperor. Whether these were meant to be or not: either the primarchs were absolutely pure in their respective ways, or none of them was.

[Visitor13]

Does anyone here believe there actually is a story behind the missing primarchs?

[Olis]

Does anyone here believe there actually is a story behind the missing primarchs?

 

What, one to be written yet or simply something that's never been said?

[Blood Angel Scout]

Does anyone here believe there actually is a story behind the missing primarchs?

 

Going on Perturabo's comment about each of the primarch's being tested by the Emperor at the beginning of the Crusade from Angel Exterminatus (don't have the book to hand to quote exact passage), seems like there is a story behind them though whether or not we'll ever find out what it is is a different matter entirely

[Visitor13]

Does anyone here believe there actually is a story behind the missing primarchs?

 

What, one to be written yet or simply something that's never been said?

 

The latter (though it can also entail the former).

[Visitor13]

Does anyone here believe there actually is a story behind the missing primarchs?

 

Going on Perturabo's comment about each of the primarch's being tested by the Emperor at the beginning of the Crusade from Angel Exterminatus (don't have the book to hand to quote exact passage), seems like there is a story behind them though whether or not we'll ever find out what it is is a different matter entirely

 

So there most likely isn't. Just a few bits and pieces of info made up by GW along the way, as was the case with Abnett's Wolves.

[Legatus]

"Pure" in terms of gene-seed means that the gene-seed has suffered only little or no degradation and developed no aberrations. This is, presumably, in comparison to its original stock. Fewer degradation or aberrations probably means not only that the special organs will be working effectively, and not only that the Aspirant is unlikely to mutate the gene-seed, but also that it will be less complicated to find a suitable host, and that there will less likely be complications in the implantation process. So, "pure" gene-seed is very much preferred, of course.

 

From the Index Astartes article:

"The Ultramarines gene-seed is by far the purest stock and there are no known aberrations in its genetic structure. Every one of the esotheric organs utilized in the arduous creation of a Space Marine by the Ultramarines are fully functional, and it can truly be said of this Chapter that they are as perfect today as they were in the says of Guilliman himself."

[Nehekhare]

Absolutely agreed, legatus. purity is measured in comparison to the original stock, which means that whatever individual tendencies the primarchs showed, they were each as pure as another.

 

May I quote from another IA article: "the Emperor's Children gene-seed was perhaps the most pure and stable of all the Legions. Only the finest physical specimen were chosen for implantation, so that the mutation rate of the gene-seed was practically zero. Every enhancement produced by the gene-seed functioned at peak efficiency, allowing the space marines to achieve their full potential in battle. No other Space Marine Legion achieved such a goal, and the technology and expertise required have never been rediscovered during the millennia following the horus heresy."

[Legatus]

I had originally plannet to post all the Index Astartes gene-seed descriptions, but I was called away from the message board, so resorted to only posting the one for the Ultramarines.

 

The Emperor's Children apparently had the finest stock back during the Great Crusade. However, their Index Astartes article is somewhat unique in that it specifically describes the gene stock of the original Legion. Later articles of the traitor Legions would instead describe how their gene-seed has suffered in their exile, but since the Emperor's Children article was one of the earliest ones, it was structured differently, describing the doctrines and details of the Legion first, and only then describing the events of the Heresy. The later articles (I think already starting with the Iron Warriors) would first describe the entire history of a Legion, including the Heresy, and would then list the Legion's doctrines and details.

 

So, during their short 200 year service as a loyal Legion, the Emperor's Children had the purest gene-seed of all the Legions. Ten thousand years later, the Night Lords seem to have the purest stock compared to all the other traitor Legions. And among the loyalists, the Ultramarines have maintained the purest stock with little to no aberration for the past millennia.

[KarkassBC]

Sincerely I don't see the point about the Emperor's Children.

Their geneseed could be the first, the last, the medium choice or whatever. But for the sub-topic theme related to the Chapters creation it's completely outside because they are now traitors and in that way their geneseed it's not more available (for order or simple lack of it).

 

If we speak amongst the traitors only, we could probably link the degeneration of the geneseed to the "improvement" made by Fabius Bile, chief apothecarion of the EC. He started to mix the geneseed with every other DNA, even xenos and animals.

[Conn Eremon]

I certainly see that second part as a measure to determine purity (remaining similar to the original because of either good external preservation/politics, internal genetic stability or luck avoiding contamination), but I disagree with the former assumption. Each of the primarchs showed distinct characteristics setting them apart from each other and from the only thing which could be considered their collective "mold" - the emperor. Whether these were meant to be or not: either the primarchs were absolutely pure in their respective ways, or none of them was.

 

We are shown, however, that the Primarchs are not the only thing that can be considered their mold. The Legions have been shown to break the mold set by their Primarch in ways that make them more collectively similar across Legion lines. While their genetic legacy comes from their Primarch (and any discussion on Primarch purity is nonsense, since they have been shown to have been genetically crafted individually and uniquely. There were no flaws or accidents shown, only deliberate intent. The only thing about Primarchs that can be labeled as 'pure' is their loyalties, or contamination by Chaos), they aren't simple clones. They obviously deviate from the genetics of their Primarchs, because they aren't copies. So while it's based off of the material and studies of the Primarch project, and each Legion specifically works off of their own Primarch, it still shows a very clear baseline across the Legions. For instance, it is inferred that Russ' characteristics are due to some additional genetic material that is not human in Deliverance Lost. It's not outright stated, but who else of the Primarchs shows signs of canine DNA? But, the gene-seed on its own gives none of that characteristic to his Legion. In order to give it to them they have to take something else, an additional modification separate from the gene-seed. So they're not copies of Russ' genetic material. They are modifications of it.

[Veteran Sergeant]

The Ultramarines are hardly bland, anyway. That's your perception as a gamer based on an apparent external bias. [...] In fact, the Ultramarines are probably the best examples of what Space Marines should be, and not some kind of average to create a baseline.

yeah, talk about bias...

genetic disposition (read the fabius bile text) and recruitment habits (read horus heresy) all have their influence. All of the primarchs were master tacticians, horus much more so than roboute

Unsubstantiated. In fact, most accounts in the fluff attribute Horus's selection over Guilliman to ancillary attributes, not because he was the superior tactician, or even the absolute best general.

 

To call anything genetically "pure" is -purely- bias if you don't know the original intend/source code - it may of course be in-game established imperial bias, which does not warrant a legitimacy to tranfer that over to a gamer's discussion from an external point of view.

Bias: b : an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment

 

Calling it the most pure is exactly what the GW provided material calls it. This isn't a personal or unreasoned judgement, and thus cannot be biased. Sorry if reality is interfering with your best laid plans. /shrug

 

Nobody said it was the best, or perfect. Just that after 10,000 years, it has been altered the least based on what it originally was and/or is expected to be. Again, this can be quoted from more than a dozen sources, and I can't see why you'd continue to argue this fact.

 

why would the AdMech even risk creating more unstable, blood hungry sociopaths as new Marines, instead of the more predictable, stable Ultramarines stock?

They tried at least once with the 21st founding. Why did they? You tell me...

LOL. I did. At least have the courtesy to read the posts if you're going to respond to them. I feel like I've given you that respect.

[Nehekhare]

not with this attitude.

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

has anyone actually heard of space marines that actually use the Belcher's gland?

 

and the imperial fist might have two missing organs but are still purer then ultramarine

 

imperial fist have had only a few traitors in the past 10 millenia and i dont count soul drinkers as traitor i mean they are right about the imperium being corrupted and im not sure if their was any other traitors from the imperial fist gene seed

 

but im pretty sure the ultramines have had quite a few chapter companys turn traitor but im not sure about that either

 

please answer the first question

[Billuriye]

has anyone actually heard of space marines that actually use the Belcher's gland?

 

Loads of times actually. You got NL trilogy where acid is used to blind opponents, chew through metal obstacles.

[Raven Angel]

Prince of Crows had a neat mention where it was used to burn holes in cells and several of the HH books mention SM spit steaming and bubbling on the ground.

[Arkangilos]

The Blood Quest Comics and the Blood Angel novels have them using the Belcher's gland

[.Torch.]

has anyone actually heard of space marines that actually use the Belcher's gland?

 

and the imperial fist might have two missing organs but are still purer then ultramarine

 

imperial fist have had only a few traitors in the past 10 millenia and i dont count soul drinkers as traitor i mean they are right about the imperium being corrupted and im not sure if their was any other traitors from the imperial fist gene seed

 

but im pretty sure the ultramines have had quite a few chapter companys turn traitor but im not sure about that either

 

please answer the first question

 

Nope, no Ultramarine Companies have ever turned traitor.

 

You can't blame the Ultramarine's if one or two of their successors turn traitor. they are responsible for roughly two thirds of the current space marine gene stock, and traito marines have to come from somewhere. :P