CitadelArmyGuy Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Is there any reason to take a hammer beyond awesomosity?I know some people espouse taking THSS Belial as a 'poor mans Lysander' but I just don't see it to be honest. Lysander joins himself to firepower squads to utilize his Bolter Drill rule--- Belial will be attached to a whole squad of THSS so requiring a 3++ is much less of a concern. However, if a player decided to go with Tactical-pattern Deathwing Terminators then Belial would not be too bad off with THSS to provide the missing 3++. Back to the topic of Tactical Terminators (I just realized the DW squad I described was an Assault Terminator squad except for the CML), I feel the DW Terminators are somewhat less than optimal when compared to BA Tactical Terminators. IMO, if you take DW then you should pattern them as Assault since they take 'free' THSS and can still get the CML. If you talk about taking Stormbolter-Terminators, then the points-cost isn't justifiable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Belial can also change his weapons for free for Hammer + shield or Twin Lightning claws. Lol no I know, in fact twin-claws is the only setup worth it (and is the one I mentioned above). I wouldn't go that far. We've run the numbers over on the DA forums numerous times. The LCs actually only do slightly better in combat then the TH/SS believe it or not. The durability from the SS, as Zeller noted, makes that configuration worth it though. Of course then you have to factor in how you will be using him. I recall pitting my mixed DW against hammernators not too long ago - Belial wasn't much help with his claws once we got stuck in. Back to the topic of Tactical Terminators (I just realized the DW squad I described was an Assault Terminator squad except for the CML), I feel the DW Terminators are somewhat less than optimal when compared to BA Tactical Terminators. IMO, if you take DW then you should pattern them as Assault since they take 'free' THSS and can still get the CML. If you talk about taking Stormbolter-Terminators, then the points-cost isn't justifiable. I'm not so sure about this either. Mixing can always be a nice setup and is where DW get their strength if you need some extra shooting (something like 2-3 TH/SS + CML with stormbolters just to get some shots off). As for how they compare to BA tactical terminators, even with straight up SB/PF squads - you are paying 3 points extra per model for fearless (and DWA I suppose) - that has to count for something. In addition you still get a cheaper CML. I suppose some advantage of course shifts to their BA counterpart if you want to go for more than 5, but you could also just have two DW squads supporting each other to the same effect which in the end is more flexible in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I was just musing on hammers in general, compared to fists (cheaper) and Chainfists (tank killy). Hammers only really have advantages against T5 and up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 ... We've run the numbers over on the DA forums numerous times. (Wonderful to see a DA Brother helping us out, I'm glad to have experience experts provide opinions) Of course then you have to factor in how you will be using him. (Such a clutch important statement! Completely agree) ..As for how they compare to BA tactical terminators, even with straight up SB/PF squads - you are paying 3 points extra per model for fearless (and DWA I suppose) - that has to count for something. In addition you still get a cheaper CML. (Unfortunately you also pay 130pts fixed-cost for Belial) So great to see some forum cross-over, I am pretty surprised the LCs only slightly math-hammer better than the TH against 3+ Sv. I still think the Initiative 5 consideration is still important since you can kill things to reduce incoming damage before they even swing. But really good food for thought, thanks EPK. Unit usage and employment will directly affect how you equip them, no disagreements here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Thanks... I'll see if I can actually dig up that mathhammer over on our board. I don't find 130 all that bad (he's cheap now - wait til the next dex - of course he'll probably get a buff). When allying with C:SM I have taken a MoTF with conversion beamer for 120. I've also considered a TDA Librarian with power axe and stormshield - that was even more, though I haven't actually fielded him. Of course some probably want to stay cheaper (around 100 or less?) so there is some truth in what you say - if your allied DW are simply going to be thrown at the enemy and ground down to nothingness, perhaps you don't need to be paying a bit more for scoring Terminators. EDIT - Here are those metrics I mentioned. Ajax worked out Belial as well, a little down on that first page. DMCC = Dead MEQ in close combat.I believe however there was a mistake which was noted on the end of the second page that the claws should be DMCC = 2 (vs. hammer DMCC=1.66, which makes more sense). I know there has been others in the past, but this was one of the most recent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminatorAM Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 I've decided to stick with BA termies and a captain with LC and CF. Everyone's input about DW and Belial was very helpful, but they might not be what I'm looking for. I have been trying to fit these guys into my existing list and they just don't work like I think they should. I want to deep strike the terminators, but I'm not sure how I want my other unit delivered. I'm between drop pods and vehicles right now with a mix of jump packs. Also I'm at a loss at what supporting units to keep around. I currently have 2 AC/LC preds and a squad of 3 attack bikes and I'm not sure what should stay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I'd strongl, recommend a TDA Librarian with force axe and storm shield over a Captain, especially if you're running a big squad of 10. Prescience works wonders on Tactical Termimators Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminatorAM Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Alright, I've taken some time to put two 2000pnt lists together that mostly have the same units I plan to use/already have, but the delivery methods differ somewhat as does the way the terminators and their attached characters play a role in the army. So tell me what you think: List 1 Amit (BA Captain) - TDA, lighning claw, chainfist Librarian - jump pack Terminator Squad - assault cannon Sanguinary Priest - TDA Tactical Squad - 10 marines, missile launcher, plasma gun, combi-plasma, Drop pod Assault Squad - 10 marines, x2 meltaguns, lightning claw Assault Squad - 10 marines, x2 meltaguns, thunder hammer Death Company - 10 DC, power fist, power ax, Drop pod Death Company Dreadnought - blood talons, Drop pod Predator - AC/TLLC Predator - AC/TLLC This list uses Amit and his termies as the main hammer unit which will deep strike into the heart of combat while the DC and DC Dread drop in first turn and act as big distractions while the rest of the jumpy army rushes forward List 2 Librarian - TDA and SS Terminator Squad - assault cannon, chainfist (Amit model but just an awesome looking rank-and-file termy for point reasons) Sanguinary Priest - jump pack, power ax, meltabomb Furioso Librarian - shield, wings Tactical Squad - 10 marines, missile launcher, plasma gun, combi-plasma, rhino Assault Squad - 10 marines, x2 meltaguns, lightning claw Assault Squad - 10 marines, x2 meltaguns, thunder hammer Death Company - 6 DC, power ax, jump packs, Lemartes Predator - AC/TLLC Predator - AC/TLLC The main assault starts on the board and is headed by the DC w/ Lemartes and the RAS with a priest bubble and shield bubble from the flying libby dread. The Termies and libby deep strike in as support. This is really a decision of which list the tact terminators fit in best: drop pod assault (list 1) or jump pack/mechish assault (list 2). What do you think looks best? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I'm not really sure what the Terminators are doing for you in those lists. If like the models/fluff and just want to fit them in, that's fine. However as it stands that don't offer much to either lists at the moment - there a generalist support unit in lists which don't need these. A small squad of TH/SS Terminators would probably serve you better here - they're a specialist unit which both lists could do with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malus the Destroyer Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I play both Dark Angels and Flesh Tearers. Good to see you again EPK, by the way. In my experience, any way you prefer to run terminators playstyle wise, I've found Deathwing Squads with a TH/SS or 2, TLClaws, and shooty guys to get work done. I usually run the PS/SB on the sgt. Even as allies with Flesh Tearers,and fast moving ones at that, they do have Deep strike. Their small arms firepower helps assist alot with our assault units. Not to mention presciensed can liquify targets. Most don't like the 15pt tax on DW termies for Fearless, but the firepower and CC they get stuck in makes it very worthwhile in my opinion. Even if you run them at pure Dark Vengeance Termies they provide one hell of a fearless gunline used in close proximity to the rest of your forces. I also think tactical terminators are far more killy this edition vs pure assault termies. I'm a victim of having more models than I should and always play whatever I feel like taking out to use that day, second by rule of cool looking models. So my opinion is skewed. I've just have had good results with Deathwing and Death Company working in tandem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminatorAM Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 I'm not really sure what the Terminators are doing for you in those lists. If like the models/fluff and just want to fit them in, that's fine. However as it stands that don't offer much to either lists at the moment - there a generalist support unit in lists which don't need these. A small squad of TH/SS Terminators would probably serve you better here - they're a specialist unit which both lists could do with. I am trying to make the tactical terminators fit in my lists and I know they might not be in with an optimal army, but I need some examples for what they do fit in with or what doesn't fit with them. Is it one or two units that require the support of a specialist? Should tact termies even be in an assault oriented list? Does their firepower help at all? What kind of deployment methods for the other troops best syncs with teleporting terminators? I do like the models, but I'm trying to learn how to build a BA list around them that can be at least somewhat competitive. Sorry, but telling me they just don't fit isn't very constructive and isn't helping the topic of this thread along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Sorry, but telling me they just don't fit isn't very constructive and isn't helping the topic of this thread along. I didn't do that - I told you why I didn't think they fitted in (a generalist support unit in a list that doesn't require one), and gave you an alternative option. If you want an example of were they do fit in, then Abusepuppy's list from a while back is a good example. Below is very rougly 1500 :- Librarian w/ TDA, SS, Divination Sang Priest w/ TDA Sang Priest w/ JP, Power Axe 10x Tactical Terminators w/ Assault Cannonx2 3x 10 Assault Marines w/ Meltagunx2, Meltabombs, Power Axe The Tactical Terminators are a generalist support unit to the Asssault Marines - providing some anti-infantry shooting (otherwise lacking at >12"), and some close combat punch in midfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I play both Dark Angels and Flesh Tearers. Good to see you again EPK, by the way. In my experience, any way you prefer to run terminators playstyle wise, I've found Deathwing Squads with a TH/SS or 2, TLClaws, and shooty guys to get work done... Hello there, yes, I agree with that sentiment. I also find it nice to have a solid full TH/SS "command unit". The claws I can do without, but maybe that's a personal preference. I still don't see the extra 15 points all that bad. I have never played any other army and love having them fearless. It's 3 points per model - doesn't seem so bad. But I suppose this DW talk is moot now - TerminatorAM is going to stick with BA terminators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Tonight I played Two Ravens Two assault squads with jumpy priest Dev Squad 10 man tac term with 2 asscannons Priest Librarian The Termies with rerolls are BRUTAL, both shooting and in combat 27 power fist attacks are nothing to laugh at, its always fun when you refuse the challenge, and see the look of horror as the other guy realises that his lord *is* going to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminatorAM Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Sorry, but telling me they just don't fit isn't very constructive and isn't helping the topic of this thread along. I didn't do that - I told you why I didn't think they fitted in (a generalist support unit in a list that doesn't require one), and gave you an alternative option. If you want an example of were they do fit in, then Abusepuppy's list from a while back is a good example. Below is very rougly 1500 :- Librarian w/ TDA, SS, Divination Sang Priest w/ TDA Sang Priest w/ JP, Power Axe 10x Tactical Terminators w/ Assault Cannonx2 3x 10 Assault Marines w/ Meltagunx2, Meltabombs, Power Axe The Tactical Terminators are a generalist support unit to the Asssault Marines - providing some anti-infantry shooting (otherwise lacking at >12"), and some close combat punch in midfield. Sorry if that sounded edgy, i was just trying to figure out why the lists dont need a generalist unit. Your example is great though, thanks. My thinking behind the above lists was to use the terminators as an anchor in my line and have the specialists plug the wholes around them as they provided a solid core that could support both the assault marines in shooting and the tacticals in assault. It's the delivery method about the rest of the army im most concerned about at this point. I havent had many games in 6th yet and have been wondering how drop pod lists would work compared to jump packs and rhinos for several of these units. It seems like a lot of people favor the jump packs so i may have to just try it out first whenever i get another chance to play a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 From my point of view, tanks are just very expensive in monetary terms. My ten man assault squad works out at 17 pence per point. Put them in a rhino and that becomes 25 ppp 6 in a bolter back is 26 pence per point. Add in that tanks are very much all or nothing, that being, you need 6 rhino or bolterbacks, and its a not inconsiderable amount of money. That said, i am mulling a three raider list :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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