New CSMs + Chaos Daemons combos

[Verythrax Draconis]

Hi,

 

I want to know better about using Daemons as allies for a CSM army. The Chaos Daemons codex is almost greek to me, I have no clue of what works and what not, what's overpriced, etc.

 

Did any of you guys started thinkering with the possibilities? I want to know what are the ideas that you have in mind, what's feasible and what not.

[EricBasser]

Ok. Daemons as allies. These are my suggestions.

 

HQs - Bloodthirster or Lord of Change. Skip Fateweaver, as he is too many points to ally and doesn't buff CSM units. Epi if you're going Nurgle.

 

Elites- Flamers of Tzeentch. With the new hull points and rise of 2+ armor, these guys shine. Flame template that causes wounds/glances on +4. Only invuln saves can be taken.

 

Troops- Your pick. Daemon troops aren't the best. If you're going bare bones, 3 Nurglings- 39 Points.

 

Fast Attack- Screamers. They get a vector strike move, are jet bikes, and have str 5 ap 2 attacks with armorbane. Good anti-terminator/tank hunters.

 

Heavy Support- Depends on your list. If you're running 2-3 Defilers, a Soul Grinder might work. But I would always take a flying daemon prine of tzeentch. Then buy Bolt of Tzeentch. Daemons bolts aren't psychic powers, they aren't beams either. So they can actually hit flyers.

 

Hope that helps a little bit.

[Azekai]

Nice summary, EricBasser. I am not sure what sort of army OP is going for, but I really like Nurgle-marked Daemon Princes of Nurgle. They get assault grenades, and are eternal warrior; basically they suffer from none of the weaknesses endemic to our own assault units.

 

Chaos icons are also pricey, but they are the only way to get CSM deepstrikes on target now. :tu:

I would at least consider taking them.

[Dallas Drake]

Chaos icons are also pricey, but they are the only way to get CSM deepstrikes on target now. :tu:

I would at least consider taking them.

 

Where does it say icons help deep strike in the new codex?

[EricBasser]

If nurgle themed. Then this is how I would run them.

 

Allied Daemons-

HQ- Epi

Troops- Plague Bearers x 2.

Heavy Support Flying Nurgle Deamon Prince. Give him grenades gift and breath of chaos.

 

Primary detachment

Hq-

typhus

Elites-

chosen with mark of nurgle, plasma guns, rhino x

Terminators with nurgle mark

Troops

Plague Marines with plasma and rhino x 2

Cultists with mark of nurgle and ccw and pistol x 2

Fast attack

Nurgle Spawns x 2

Heavy Support

Olbiterators with marks of nurgle.

 

Bring tally up and use an evil laugh. Basically, anything with marl of chaos works with a tally list. I wouldn't do Zombies, becuase they don't have Nurgles mark. While the cultists marked with nurgle with be funny in assault.

 

Sadly, I think Nurgle has the only true synergy with daemons. Unless they re-faq that Fateweavers bubble to work ith CSM.

[Azekai]

Chaos icons are also pricey, but they are the only way to get CSM deepstrikes on target now. :tu:

I would at least consider taking them.

 

Where does it say icons help deep strike in the new codex?

They don't in the new dex, because the gods have abandoned us. However, the chaos daemon icons can work with us because they state that all friendlies can use them and we are battle brothers.

[Verythrax Draconis]

Nice summary, EricBasser. I am not sure what sort of army OP is going for, but I really like Nurgle-marked Daemon Princes of Nurgle. They get assault grenades, and are eternal warrior; basically they suffer from none of the weaknesses endemic to our own assault units.

 

In fact, I just started investing on a Chaos army, and I believe I have now a fairly good idea of what would be useful for my playstyle or not - but before commit, buying tons of models, I would like to see ideas of more experienced player on how to use a CSM army together with CD. It's very fluffy, and if I can get some solid ideas on use them together, why not? - maybve I'll end up making an hybrid list ;)

 

@EricBasser: Tally of Pestilence + Nurgle CSM army is nasty! :tu:

[The Prophet]

All sad Tzeentch players can be really happy about their daemon allies. Apart from the horrors maybe, all tzeentch models in the codex work well. Screamers and flamers are the bomb!

[the jeske]

yeah , but that is a bit like saying that a BT player should be happy because he can ally SW and SW are the bomb.

 

 

as taking stuff it looks like this . hvy is a winged DP .flamers and/or screamers are good. troops are most of the time minimized because of points issues , so stuff like 5 pms or 5 horrors is taken . as HQ goes there are two schools one says that to play a csm army like a demon army and then you take thirster or more offten fateweaver , the other school goes cheap and takes a herald or cheap GD.

[EricBasser]

If I didn't already have a Tzeentch Daemons army, I would have done Nurgle Tally List.

 

One thing that somewhat synergies with Daemons are Dirge Casters, Warp Talons Deepstriking, and any assaulty daemon units. Bloodletters, Blood Crushers, and CSM Beserkers. Deepstrike Talons in, reduce WS and BS to 1, assault and profit.

[Jacinda]

Chaos icons are also pricey, but they are the only way to get CSM deepstrikes on target now. :tu:

I would at least consider taking them.

 

Where does it say icons help deep strike in the new codex?

They don't in the new dex, because the gods have abandoned us. However, the chaos daemon icons can work with us because they state that all friendlies can use them and we are battle brothers.

and there is no way to shoehorn it in to the CSM list since they no longer get Icon of Slaanesh; they get an Icon of Excess.

 

Speaking of excessive ... can I use the price tag from the book as my Icon Excess?

[RolandTHTG]

Speaking of excessive ... can I use the price tag from the book as my Icon Excess?

 

I'd say go ahead. Just explain that the FNP is because your wallet is screaming in agony, but you feel nothing. :rolleyes:

[SamaNagol]

Screamers fill a big hole in dealing with AP2 enemies without having to take hits back that you cannot survive reliably.

 

Bloodthirster is awesome too. As are Flamers and HS Daemon Princes.

[Plague Dave]

Chaos icons are also pricey, but they are the only way to get CSM deepstrikes on target now. :D

I would at least consider taking them.

 

Where does it say icons help deep strike in the new codex?

They don't in the new dex, because the gods have abandoned us. However, the chaos daemon icons can work with us because they state that all friendlies can use them and we are battle brothers.

 

Daemon Icons don't allow CSM units to DS without scattering either. As per the Daemon FAQ: "When a friendly unit chosen from Codex: Chaos Daemons Deep Strikes within 6" of an Icon of Chaos, it does not roll for scatter ..." Since the only thing in the CSM codex that toys with Deep Striking is now the Dimensional Key, and it also has the 'from this codex' restriction, CSM and Daemon Deep Striking just doesn't interact at all anymore. Read your FAQs, folks. I'm not sure why both CSM, and Daemon FAQs had that 'all friendly units' question if they were both changed to get away from that, but ... moving on.

 

Everybody responding here is basically hitting the nail right on the head about which units are good Daemon allies. The only caveat I'd make regarding the Death Guard/Epi list is that more than a minimum Plaguebearer unit is likely required there to keep him alive. If he dies, after all, he's not counting and those goodies are gone. I'd likely go with 7-14 PBs. On the lower end, you may want to make use of a Aegis Line, Ruins, or Bastion to hide in.

 

I'm excited to run DG/Epi as a long time DG player. Though I'm starting a second army of renegades, too, and they'll make use of more of the Tzeentch daemons--flamers and screamers for sure.

[Azekai]

Damn the FAQ, full speed ahead. :D

 

Seriously, what is the point of being battle brothers when the rules are increasingly written to be army specific?

Someone remind me to play BA, they don't kill themselves when they enter play.

[Vesper]

I put that here, for you to use when you'll start talking about an Epidemus Nurgle-heavy list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC8Jdlj4VJk

 

Yeah, you're welcome.

[Smurfalypse]

Had someone on these forums ask me for advice about allying with Daemons and this is what I sent him, same applies here.

 

The following are for the elites and my experiences with them (about 20 games with various daemons as allies until i settled on my current list).

 

Fiends are really good. They can target out vehicles, smaller elite units, and even go toe to toe with blob squads that are not to good in CC (IG blobs ect). 6 attack each on the charge, rending, initiative 5, and HIT AND RUN. Never forget how good that ability is, it will get you so many charges and run you around the board so fast that it really throws people off.

 

Flamers are by far and away the BEST single unit in the entire codex, maybe the game. Can take them in 4-6 man units and operate just fine because of the 2 wounds, their template weapon kills everything...Literally everything. The biggest issue with them is that you CANNOT ASSAULT THEM. They get to overwatch with their :cussing template weapon and it just wipes out anything trying to charge. Best unit in the book, would highly recommend taking one smallish unit.

 

Bloodcrushers ate a bit of a nerf with the Hellblade being FAQd to be AP3. The other two units are so much better than them right now that I wouldn't even bother if you are going for a competitive list, if not they are still fairly tough and can go toe to toe with anything NOT AR2.

 

Beasts of Nurgle are a huge tarpit. T5, FnP, 2 wounds, and eternal warrior, makes them sit around for years. They are however slower than the other units (just move as infantry) and do not have the ability to kill heavy vehicles or elite units like terminators. They however would really take it to blob squads.

 

The following are for the fast attack choices and what I have noticed when playing them.

 

Flesh Hounds of Khorne are trash. Cost more than a CSM and would not win a CC fight vs a same sized unit, even when they charge. If you are running a pure Daemon Codex army they are serviceable, but as an ally they are just not very good. Unless you like dogs :D

 

Seekers of Slaanesh are a very good choice, some people consider them to be the best choice in the FA slot. I do not, but a lot do; 5 attacks on the charge with rending, move as cavalry, but T3, str3, and 1 wound. They like the Daemonettes need large unit to be able to withstand the fire coming their way.

 

Screamers of Tzeentch are by far my favorite unit in the entire codex. I value speed over all else when writing up my lists and these guys deliver. 25pts each is a bit pricey and I would recommend taking a max squad of 9, so 225. They kill ANYTHING they assault. They are also Jetbikes and come with all the jetbike special rules, they can turboboost on the turn they deepstrike (24 :cussing inches) so they will ALWAYS be in position to do the most damage or take the least damage. A4, str5, ap2 attacks on the charge each, also get hammer of wrath, two wounds, and :cussing armor bane...they aren't even fair. The new models are great for them. I have had these guys go toe to toe with any unit they assault.

 

Furies trash, do not bother. They are 15 pts each for just nothing. Again, unless you like them for some other reason but if you want a decent unit, look elsewhere ;)

 

Following will be heavies. This is the area of the Daemon Codex that I do not know very well as I have only run the stuff there a handful of times.

 

Sound Grinder is a cheaper Defiler with +1 front and side armor That cant be bad can it?? Doesn't have the "It will not die" but still has the rest of the stuff. Can upgrade it with the battle cannon.

 

Daemon Prince To expensive for me to ever use so I never did. No input here because I have literally zero experience with them.

 

Strategy with using Daemons is simple.

Do not care if they live or die when you deploy them. Make them as inviting a target to shoot at as possible. Like a piece of bait, just out of range to assault but in range of whatever kind of fire you want to throw at them. If your opponent does not take the bait, then he/she has a huge problem with some of fastest assault units in the game slamming into his/her units. And these fast attack daemons ALL have serious potential in CC.

 

The exception to all of this are the Flamers (and Horrors to a certain extent). They shoot so you can always place them near a unit and hope to get off some flame shots if their scatter isn't to bad. I have had them kill a full 10 man term squad of mine from one of our daemon players around here (4 flamers, got a hit on scatter, entire term unit dead).

 

That is how I use them and that is why I focus on the faster units vs the slower ones (cept the nurgle one to hold an objective, usually in my back line).

[Chimerical]

Epi + Typhus is going to be one of the most broken combos in the game. It might even get FAQed out because of how much whinging it will cause. Picture it:

 

Turn 1 or 2. Typhus is attached to 35 nurgle cultists and you infiltrate them with another HQ (Huron, probably). You get preferred wave and Epi comes in somewhere safe. You charge with your guys, bunching up your cultists around Typhus as much as possible and fire off destroyer hive in the assault phase. Boom, 20 dead cultists. Proceed to walk over opponent.

 

I reckon either the Daemons will rewrite Epi to work with Daemons only (so much for brothers in arms!) and/or Typhus' Destroyer Hive will specifically only work IN assault (which will just delay the effect for a couple of turns).

[Verythrax Draconis]

I reckon either the Daemons will rewrite Epi to work with Daemons only (so much for brothers in arms!) and/or Typhus' Destroyer Hive will specifically only work IN assault (which will just delay the effect for a couple of turns).

 

I believe it's RAI, since the power can be used at "Typhus' initiative step".

[TheDarkOne]

...and ìnstead of his normal attacks.

 

woudl be crazy though... just gotta get into combat. and you don`t relaly need to mark the cultists, if they`re just ammunition for the tally in this case. theyre not going to kill much on their own.

 

I too have been thinking about allying in demons, mainly because i`d like to start a demons army for fantasy, and i can round base most models or magnetize them for double gaming purposes. my allies would then be based on what makes a good fantasy army...

 

what demons are good in both 40K and Fantasy?

 

plague marines are hella killy, but i think the tallymaster will be most pleased with our marked obliterators, and marked CSM...

[Verythrax Draconis]

...and ìnstead of his normal attacks.

 

woudl be crazy though... just gotta get into combat. and you don`t relaly need to mark the cultists, if they`re just ammunition for the tally in this case. theyre not going to kill much on their own.

 

I too have been thinking about allying in demons, mainly because i`d like to start a demons army for fantasy, and i can round base most models or magnetize them for double gaming purposes. my allies would then be based on what makes a good fantasy army...

 

what demons are good in both 40K and Fantasy?

 

plague marines are hella killy, but i think the tallymaster will be most pleased with our marked obliterators, and marked CSM...

 

 

Good catch! In fact you're right, you just need the cultists to create the suicide bubble, the mark doesn't matter, since even if you use them on suicide charges just to slow down something (like using swarms), anything that is worth to slow down can easily kill them all quickly, or just disengage. But I would have a 2nd unit with autoguns for actual shooty killing. With that volume of fire, they are likely to kill something.

[Telenikros]

In my view, one of the must mind boggling combo's is Epi+Abaddon+Typhus as Abaddon has all four marks he too will be posted be Epi, then he can make the choosen of Chaos who can also be marked by nurgle into troops, then Typhus makes the cultests into Nurgle zombies then Epi uses his powers and boosts them all, when i read this I just wanted to cry for the space marines that I also collect.

[Iron Sage]

In my view, one of the must mind boggling combo's is Epi+Abaddon+Typhus as Abaddon has all four marks he too will be posted be Epi, then he can make the choosen of Chaos who can also be marked by nurgle into troops, then Typhus makes the cultests into Nurgle zombies then Epi uses his powers and boosts them all, when i read this I just wanted to cry for the space marines that I also collect.

 

I dont know.

 

I think that wouldn`t work very well most of the time, considering abbadon is very expensive and your stipulating his use with the already very expensive Typhus and the moderatly costed Epidemus.

 

I have much more fait in Epi + Typhus combos. But Abbadon? Not so sure. Why would chosen by so nice in an epi + typhus list? IMO plague marines, nurgle bikers, nurgle spawns, nurgle raptors, nrugle basic marines, would all be better choices I suspect.

[Azekai]

In my view, one of the must mind boggling combo's is Epi+Abaddon+Typhus as Abaddon has all four marks he too will be posted be Epi, then he can make the choosen of Chaos who can also be marked by nurgle into troops, then Typhus makes the cultests into Nurgle zombies then Epi uses his powers and boosts them all, when i read this I just wanted to cry for the space marines that I also collect.

 

I dont know.

 

I think that wouldn`t work very well most of the time, considering abbadon is very expensive and your stipulating his use with the already very expensive Typhus and the moderatly costed Epidemus.

 

I have much more fait in Epi + Typhus combos. But Abbadon? Not so sure. Why would chosen by so nice in an epi + typhus list? IMO plague marines, nurgle bikers, nurgle spawns, nurgle raptors, nrugle basic marines, would all be better choices I suspect.

I agree, Iron Sage. Abbadon will not benefit much from the tally- he doesn't have FnP, he already wounds easily, and ignores armor . . . he is good at racking up the tally once he hits in CC, but the cost of Abby + Epi + Typhus is quite high. More power to you if you are able to pull such a character-heavy list off.

[Iron Sage]

In my view, one of the must mind boggling combo's is Epi+Abaddon+Typhus as Abaddon has all four marks he too will be posted be Epi, then he can make the choosen of Chaos who can also be marked by nurgle into troops, then Typhus makes the cultests into Nurgle zombies then Epi uses his powers and boosts them all, when i read this I just wanted to cry for the space marines that I also collect.

 

I dont know.

 

I think that wouldn`t work very well most of the time, considering abbadon is very expensive and your stipulating his use with the already very expensive Typhus and the moderatly costed Epidemus.

 

I have much more fait in Epi + Typhus combos. But Abbadon? Not so sure. Why would chosen by so nice in an epi + typhus list? IMO plague marines, nurgle bikers, nurgle spawns, nurgle raptors, nrugle basic marines, would all be better choices I suspect.

I agree, Iron Sage. Abbadon will not benefit much from the tally- he doesn't have FnP, he already wounds easily, and ignores armor . . . he is good at racking up the tally once he hits in CC, but the cost of Abby + Epi + Typhus is quite high. More power to you if you are able to pull such a character-heavy list off.

 

Yeah. Would be better to take something tough with an AP 2 template then, like Kugath, compared to Abby anyway.