Close combat HQ delivery systems

[Spacelizard]

So with the new codex ushering in a time of change for chaos I think we need to look at how we are going to get our close combat HQs (lords & almost all special characters) in to close combat. As we all know 6th is definitely not an edition that favors close combat; but at the same time given that we have the new chaos boon table as well as the fact that lords and special characters are designed to be close combat monsters we need to figure out some good ways of delivering them. Obviously different HQs will favor different configurations but the point of this thread is to try and narrow some of these down and weigh the pros and cons of each.

 

1.The obvious choice: Khorne Berzerkers.

I say they are the obvious choice simply because when you mention close combat chaos most people immediately think Khorne Berzerkers.

With WS5, the ability to take ap4 weaponry, MoK, fearless, and Furious charge they make for a pretty solid dedicated close combat unit to escort your killy lord around. They do have their drawbacks though...namely the fact that unless you pay for upgrades they have no ap and even when you do you still only get ap4 weapons which makes the upgrades useless against power armor and terminators. Additionally, while the special rules that you get are nice, they still only have one base attack and initiative 4 just like a normal CSM. The fact that they are only initiative 4 means that for all the maiming that they can do they will still be going simultaneously with most power armor foes. They also lack a solid way to soften up a squad prior to charging. Overall I think they are a decent choice but sadly they are more geared toward going after targets that are softer than an MEQ. I feel like this is kind of a waste considering typically you want your lord to go hunting for your opponent's characters or other nasty close combat stuff. Another minor downside is that they are not fluffy for a lot of armies. Also the fact that they are fearless is irrelevant since any lord you stick with them will be fearless himself.

 

Alternatives: Khorne marked regular CSM w/ Icon of Wrath and bolt pistol+CC weapons for the whole squad. For the tradeoff of one less WS (still a 4) you get practically a cheaper version of a regular Berzerker squad without chainaxes. Sure you don't get fearless but the lord that goes with them will take care of that. Another advantage here is that they can score without needing to take a khorne marked lord. Lastly, I feel like the final point that actually makes them the better choice over berzerkers is the fact that they can take special weapons whereas the zerks can't. The special weapons will allow you to soften a target before you charge and you can even pay for them with the points you saved by not buying berzerkers.

 

2. Cultist Blobs

Ahh...the new troop choice that everyone is talking and theorycrafting about...also the unit that we have yet to see where their true value will end up. They are one of the cheapest units in all of 40k and you can field boatloads of them. The allure here is that you can have 35 of these maniacs escourting your lord around. They feed off each other in that the lord will make them fearless and they give the lord plenty of cheap wounds for look out sir, as well as a boatload of extra close combat attacks for using the good old tactic of quantity over quality. With the ability to take marks you can potentially give the 4 attacks on the charge, or make them toughness 4 for a little more resilience. The cherry on top is that they can score. They also have a great interaction with Typhus although (as has been discussed already on this board) we will have to wait for the FAQ to see just how effective plague zombies can potentially be. Even if you are still only fielding a squad of 10 of them they are still a great escort for Typhus. Unfortunately they are not without their drawbacks and as we all know that is the fact that they melt like butter if you so much as glance in their direction. Even with a full compliment of 35 cultists you will be lucky to make it to your destination with more than a handful left if your opponent so much as devotes one round of shooting to it. Also...just as with shooting...they will melt in close combat as well and with their low initiative you are likely to lose quite a few before they even get to attack.

 

Overall they are a decent scoring solution for escorting a lord, but do not be surprised if your lord arrives at his target with only a couple of guys left.

 

3. Close Combat Chosen

These guys have the potential to be absurdly brutal if kitted properly for close combat. Since they are veterans they naturally get a bonus attack on their basic profile... something that you won't find anywhere else other than Terminators and Mutilators. Adding marks can make them tough as nails with nurgle, or give them khorne for 5 attacks on the charge. This is also the first unit in this list that could benefit heavily from the mark of slaanesh. By taking Slaanesh you ensure that you will swing before anything that inst an HQ in a space marine army, as well as the majority of other units in the game barring eldar and dark eldar. I would actually say that given the amount of power weapons that they can muster...the ability to go first far out weighs the benefits of nurgle or khorne. The best defense is killing your opponent before they can take a swing at you...or you can get the best of both worlds and take an icon of excess! This also makes for an ideal unit to escort Abbadon since he makes them score. For all this badassery there is a downside and that is that more than likely you are going to be running a unit like this with low numbers simply due to the fact that this unit costs an insane amount of points.

4. Shooty Chosen

Although not quite the beasts in close combat that their close combat weapon brothers are they can still pack a punch. By taking 4 special weapons you shift your tactics toward gunning down your opponents and then finishing off the scraps in close combat. This option also makes them significantly cheaper than going for all close combat weapons and it allows them to be more versatile overall, as well as remaining a threat even when they aren't in close combat.

 

Alternative: Havocs with 4 special weapons and a close combat equipped champion. Yes...I said Havocs. While you lose the extra attack from taking chosen you can essentially get the same exact unit by taking special weapon havocs. This gives you a cheaper unit than chosen while still freeing up an elites slot (at the expense of a heavy slot)

 

5. Raptors/Warp Talons

Raptors are a pretty decent close combat unit but lack the ability to spam anything with an ap value making them nothing more than regular bolt pistol + CC weapon marines with jump packs. Fear is nice but not that spectacular. The same thing goes for warp talons except that they are way over priced for what you get. Their mediocre stats won't allow you to successfully throw them at a lot of things that your lord will want to be killing either unless you are willing to shell out for marks and icons which makes for a pricey unit. The overall main problem here is that raptors/talons are only an option if you are taking a jump pack lord which rules out all HQs except for generic lords and sorcerers.

 

6. Bikes

Bikes are definitely the gem of the fast attack choices. They make for a crazy resilient unit for your lord to ride around with especially with a mark of nurgle. They are great in that they are the fastest of all the delivery systems that I have talked about here and as I said before they are likely the toughest if they are nurgle. They can field a nice array of special weapons and they are tough in close combat. Suprisingly they are also one of the more cost effective choices as well. Yes an individual bike is more expensive per model than anything else, however simply the fact that they are bikes makes it worth it. The downsides though are that just like with raptors they exclude any HQs that aren't generic lords or sorcerers. Sadly, unlike our loyalist scumbag brothers there is no way to make them score either. Their tactics work the same way as I described above with the special weapon equipped chosen/havocs except that they are faster and get hammer of wrath.

 

7. Terminators

Not the best option in the codex for sure. Unlike the loyalist pinheads we do not get crazy deathstar close combat terminators so naturally they do not make the best choice for escorting a close combat minded lord. The inability to sweeping advance lowers their appeal as well. Even if we did get assaulty terminators you would still need a land raider just to deliver them...a delivery system for your delivery system lol!

8. Possessed

We all hoped that these guys would get better with the new codex...and they did... but just because you get better at something doesn't mean you don't still suck in general. Still no frag grenades and only a 33% chance of actually being better than some of the stuff I have already talked about

 

9.Mutilators

No.............................seriously.

 

10. Plague Marines

With the addition of the plague knife these guys are actually a pretty good escort for just about any lord out there, especially a nurgle lord to make them scoring. They are tough as nails making them able to withstand a footslog across the board. They might not be the most brutal in close combat but they sure are hard to kill. You can even give them the icon of despair for a little extra punch in close combat. They are also unique in that the plague knife actually makes them a good compliment for a lord that wants to go monstrous creature hunting. Even if you aren't going after MCs they are still a damn good unit in general since they will be rerolling to wound against most opponents. Surprisingly I feel like they truly are one of the top picks out of this list since their only real downsides are their points cost (which is the highest of all the cult troops) and the fact that you have to take a nurgle lord to make them scoring.

 

11. Thousand Sons

As expected these are for shooty lords only, which isn't the topic of this thread.

 

12.Noise Marines

Yes thats right...noise marines, those guys that used to have assault weapons. With their Slaanesh initiative and the ability to take BP+CC weapon they make for a decent close combat unit that will strike before most opponents. The thing that makes them unique is the ability to take a Doom siren. Now...it is debatable whether or not it is worth it to pay 2pts per model more just to be able to purchase a doom siren, but the killing power that you can dish out prior to a charge is crazy. You can even double the effect if you are running Lucius. There are very few things that aren't terminators that can handle two doom sirens plus an assault. Now... This makes for a pretty good delivery system if you are running Lucius but what about other things. I think that if you are going to run a standard CSM squad as an escort that it is worth it to pay a few extra points to add on the doom siren. Now that we have to issue an/or accept all challenges i feel like slaanesh is going to be a popular mark from here on out simply due to how well it synergies with challenges. Thus I am assuming that slaanesh lords are going to be pretty common and with that this noise marine escort becomes scoring. This does carry with it some downsides in that it is not the most ideal delivery system if you are running a lord with a non slaanesh mark. They also do not have the option to take special weapons like a lot of the other squads have (though I do feel like the doom siren makes up for it). Overall I feel like this is a no brainer if you are running a slaanesh lord and especially Lucius. This also happens to be my personal favorite delivery system as I play a slaanesh army.

 

Thoughts?

[SamaNagol]

Berzerkers in a Dirge Caster Rhino.

 

And hope that Lord can deal with AP2.

 

Chaos have a bit of a problem with AP2 units in combat that can usually out kill them in combat for a better points cost.

[Dallas Drake]

Berzerkers in a Dirge Caster Rhino.

 

And hope that Lord can deal with AP2.

 

Chaos have a bit of a problem with AP2 units in combat that can usually out kill them in combat for a better points cost.

 

Berzerker Champ with a Power Axe. 6 x S7 AP2 attacks, plus give the unit VoTLW too & some of those saves will roll 1s to help out. Just make sure that your Champ doesn't get punked before he swings!

 

Dallas

[minigun762]

I had originally planned on noise marines with BP&CCW supported by siren & sword champ in a raider but at the end of the day, I'm not convinced that Slaaneshi marked troops couldn't do the same thing for less.

 

Now I'm looking at MoS raptors instead.

[vahouth]

Berzerkers in a Dirge Caster Rhino.

 

And hope that Lord can deal with AP2.

 

Chaos have a bit of a problem with AP2 units in combat that can usually out kill them in combat for a better points cost.

 

Berzerker Champ with a Power Axe. 6 x S7 AP2 attacks, plus give the unit VoTLW too & some of those saves will roll 1s to help out. Just make sure that your Champ doesn't get punked before he swings!

 

Dallas

 

You mean 5 x S6 AP2, right? Also VotLW gives hatred (rerolls all misses to hit on the charge), not prefered enemy (reroll 1s).

[Azekai]

I am considering sticking my cheap Nurgle lord with a 15-20 man cultist squad. They will be Nurgle-marked, and then they can happily objective camp without worrying about running away from shooting losses. As far as getting them to attack, I am planning on many foes coming to me.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Berzerkers in a Dirge Caster Rhino.

 

And hope that Lord can deal with AP2.

 

Chaos have a bit of a problem with AP2 units in combat that can usually out kill them in combat for a better points cost.

 

Abaddon can deal with them, for example. T5, 4W, 4++ invuln and Eternal Warrior. He will likely strike before most AP2 models with his own S5 Ap2 daemon weapon. If you can find a better CC warrior, let me know, because I don't know them ;)

[Iron Sage]

I am considering sticking my cheap Nurgle lord with a 15-20 man cultist squad. They will be Nurgle-marked, and then they can happily objective camp without worrying about running away from shooting losses. As far as getting them to attack, I am planning on many foes coming to me.

 

I don`t really think it`s effective use of a Nurgle lord, even if cheap, to let him become a designated objective camper with a squad of cultists.

[SamaNagol]

Berzerkers in a Dirge Caster Rhino.

 

And hope that Lord can deal with AP2.

 

Chaos have a bit of a problem with AP2 units in combat that can usually out kill them in combat for a better points cost.

 

Abaddon can deal with them, for example. T5, 4W, 4++ invuln and Eternal Warrior. He will likely strike before most AP2 models with his own S5 Ap2 daemon weapon. If you can find a better CC warrior, let me know, because I don't know them ;)

 

Abaddon is 250+ points, and slow as hell. Only way to get him mobile is spending another 230pts. Good luck balancing that in a 1750pt list and not getting all your troops vaporised. Cos he is no Mephiston in a Stormraven.

[Azekai]

The only reason I am even taking a lord is to be able to get Plague Marine troops. Personally I really hate being forced to get one at all.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Berzerkers in a Dirge Caster Rhino.

 

And hope that Lord can deal with AP2.

 

Chaos have a bit of a problem with AP2 units in combat that can usually out kill them in combat for a better points cost.

 

Abaddon can deal with them, for example. T5, 4W, 4++ invuln and Eternal Warrior. He will likely strike before most AP2 models with his own S5 Ap2 daemon weapon. If you can find a better CC warrior, let me know, because I don't know them :)

 

Abaddon is 250+ points, and slow as hell. Only way to get him mobile is spending another 230pts. Good luck balancing that in a 1750pt list and not getting all your troops vaporised. Cos he is no Mephiston in a Stormraven.

 

No less mobile then most HQ and you also will have a very resiliant warlord. He is slow as everyone else. At 1750pts his cost may be a problem, though. You just mentioned AP2 weapons. Abaddon can deal with them and he is expensive, Everything has a price. ;)

You cannot have a cheap HQ that can deal with everyone and everything, at least not in a balanced game system ;)

In the other case people will complain he is too cheap for what he does, thus "unbalanced" and "broken"... you know what I'm talking about :D

[vahouth]

Berzerkers in a Dirge Caster Rhino.

 

And hope that Lord can deal with AP2.

 

Chaos have a bit of a problem with AP2 units in combat that can usually out kill them in combat for a better points cost.

 

Abaddon can deal with them, for example. T5, 4W, 4++ invuln and Eternal Warrior. He will likely strike before most AP2 models with his own S5 Ap2 daemon weapon. If you can find a better CC warrior, let me know, because I don't know them :)

 

Abaddon is 250+ points, and slow as hell. Only way to get him mobile is spending another 230pts. Good luck balancing that in a 1750pt list and not getting all your troops vaporised. Cos he is no Mephiston in a Stormraven.

 

No less mobile then most HQ and you also will have a very resiliant warlord. He is slow as everyone else. At 1750pts his cost may be a problem, though. You just mentioned AP2 weapons. Abaddon can deal with them and he is expensive, Everything has a price. ;)

You cannot have a cheap HQ that can deal with everyone and everything, at least not in a balanced game system ;)

In the other case people will complain he is too cheap for what he does, thus "unbalanced" and "broken"... you know what I'm talking about :D

 

What about Khârn? He is cheaper and AP2 at Initiative.

[SamaNagol]

Khârn is AWESOME value at just over 150pts. When you compare him to say Seth who is about the same price in the BA dex it really puts him into perspective.

 

Shame he only has 3+/5++ and no EW but everything other than Warlords who cost 100pts more than him will die before they swing back anyway.

 

The problem with this dex is highlighted here.... Everything is either too expensive to be a feasible solution to issues such as Abaddon/CSM troops/Warp Talons, or it has a glaring flaw such as Khârn/Berzekers/LandRaiders...

[HJL]

~180pts

 

Lord, mok, juggernought, axe of blind fury, sigil, votlw, gom.

 

8-13 s6 ap2 i5 rerolable hits on the charge. Backed up by three chaos spawn. The spawns stay in front to absorb hits with their t5. Lord then gets in and murders everything.

[Trevak Dal]

Berzerkers in a Dirge Caster Rhino.

 

And hope that Lord can deal with AP2.

 

Chaos have a bit of a problem with AP2 units in combat that can usually out kill them in combat for a better points cost.

 

Abaddon can deal with them, for example. T5, 4W, 4++ invuln and Eternal Warrior. He will likely strike before most AP2 models with his own S5 Ap2 daemon weapon. If you can find a better CC warrior, let me know, because I don't know them ;)

 

Zhufor's got Eternal Warrior, Terminator armor, Furious Charge and a s10 powerfist and 6 attacks on the charge. Not as good an Invulnerable save, but he's Kazuma the Shell Bullet when it comes to knocking guys down. I ran him back during the late unpleasantness when Khârn was hitting at initiative 1 under the premise of "If I'm going to hit last, I'm going to have Eternal Warrior and several s10 hits coming in."

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Abaddon can deal with them, for example. T5, 4W, 4++ invuln and Eternal Warrior. He will likely strike before most AP2 models with his own S5 Ap2 daemon weapon. If you can find a better CC warrior, let me know, because I don't know them ;)

 

Khârn. 7 S6 AP2 I5 Attacks on the charge, hits on a 2+, re-rolls 1s in the first round, allows his entire unit to re-roll misses in the first round and costs nearly a hundred points less than the Despoiler.

[Sons_of_Medax]

I had been giving consideration to this for my Huron Delivery:

 

Terminators - 4 strong, VotLW, MoS, Icon of Excess, Dude with dual LC and Champion w/ dual LC.

 

Rocks out to about 460pts including a Land Raider w/Dozer Blade. Good Init, Fnp... Thoughts??

[Dallas Drake]

Berzerkers in a Dirge Caster Rhino.

 

And hope that Lord can deal with AP2.

 

Chaos have a bit of a problem with AP2 units in combat that can usually out kill them in combat for a better points cost.

 

Berzerker Champ with a Power Axe. 6 x S7 AP2 attacks, plus give the unit VoTLW too & some of those saves will roll 1s to help out. Just make sure that your Champ doesn't get punked before he swings!

 

Dallas

 

You mean 5 x S6 AP2, right? Also VotLW gives hatred (rerolls all misses to hit on the charge), not prefered enemy (reroll 1s).

 

Yeah, I meant 5 x S6. Derp! I know VoTLW is Hatred, you misunderstand me - I meant rolling 1s as in them failing their TDA saves against the sheer weight of Berzerker attacks. Not clear, very tired ;)

 

Anyone got a good idea about where to put Huron? I keep coming back to Chosen but I don't want to run them. How about 9 CSMs as a scoring bodyguard?

 

Dallas

[minigun762]

What about plague marines for Huron? He provides high I MEQ killing and they provide bullet sponges and some increased horde or MC killing power. Squad could take power axe or fist for more AP2.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I willl be using my jump pack Khorne lord with axe which makes you blink with 8 khornate raptors including a champ with power sword, axe, or fist.

[Dallas Drake]

I'd take PMs if I was taking Cult Troops but I'd rather not. I know I said I'd rather not take Chosen but what about;

 

9 Chosen, MoK, VoTLW

- Flamer x 3

- Power Axe

Rhino

 

Then plonk Huron in there & Infiltrate/Outflank?

[Cmdr Shepard]

Berzerkers in a Dirge Caster Rhino.

 

And hope that Lord can deal with AP2.

 

Chaos have a bit of a problem with AP2 units in combat that can usually out kill them in combat for a better points cost.

 

Abaddon can deal with them, for example. T5, 4W, 4++ invuln and Eternal Warrior. He will likely strike before most AP2 models with his own S5 Ap2 daemon weapon. If you can find a better CC warrior, let me know, because I don't know them ;)

 

Zhufor's got Eternal Warrior, Terminator armor, Furious Charge and a s10 powerfist and 6 attacks on the charge. Not as good an Invulnerable save, but he's Kazuma the Shell Bullet when it comes to knocking guys down. I ran him back during the late unpleasantness when Khârn was hitting at initiative 1 under the premise of "If I'm going to hit last, I'm going to have Eternal Warrior and several s10 hits coming in."

 

Sadly at my local store FW rules are not, let's say, loved. Many players don't want to play against them, so I was limiting my analisys to the standard 40K line.

For the records, I have nothing about FW stuff... in fact I like it ;)

 

What about Khârn? He is cheaper and AP2 at Initiative.

Khârn is not EW, has a 5++ invul. If we want a HQ capable to resist to AP2 attacks Abaddon is more resiliant since most melee AP2 weapons inflict instant death.

If you want a character with effective AP2 capability and you are not converned about his survivability against such attacks then Khârn is indeed a good choice.

He strikes at S7 on the charge with an AP2 armourbane weapons and hit on 2+. The only problem is the trait that earned his title (the betrayer) but we have cultists for that.

 

Have you ever thought how Khârn would be amazing against those Rune Priests? :woot:

Put him a 35 cultists unit; keep the model the more spreaded possible, place it ahead the rest of your army and nullify those jaws of the wolf powers on a roll of 2+ ;)

[Pariah Mk.231]

LOL! Khârn and cultists! It goes from "please don't kill off 20 points with a bad swing" to "Bah, who cares about a few cultists getting munched?!"

 

And that idea of spreading the cultists out to make a massive psyker denial screen is gold, not just against Wolves, but anyone using a Beam power!

[Iron Sage]

Not saying its the best unit to deliver him in at all, but he makes a lot of sense as a Thousand Sons/Tzeentch chaos lord type (as in one of the members of the Sons that excelled in close combat while having a rather unorthodox way with magic). He makes charging with a Thousand Sons squad kind of attractive. Can lay down a lot of fire, and then assault. Slow and purposeful is then suddenly not that awful at all.

 

In any case it`s a character Thousand Sons players should strongly consider using as a Tzeentch lord, and especially if theydon`t feel like fielding Ahriman.