What's the problem with the Thousand Sons?

[Verythrax Draconis]

Hi, I see everybody saying how the TS got the shot end of the stick on this codex. Can you guys explain me what is the issue?

 

From what I see, they only cost 1 point more than a Plague Marine, and have -1 Toughness compared to it (of course), together with a Ld 10 score (against 8 from the PMs). But they get the Inferno bolts, aura of dark glory AND the Mark of Tzeentch, that from my understanding, give to them a Inv save o 5+ PLUS 1 from the mark, so 4+ Inv save in the end.

 

Isn't all of it worth? I know that the icon of flame seems kind sucky, but why do you guys think TS aren't viable?

 

I'm asking it here, so the non-TS can see it and share their opinions as well - that's what matters, since TS players you play them anyway, right? :huh:

[Spacelizard]

Read the entry for Slow and Purposeful in the BRB and you will discover the secrets(lol) as to why Thousand Sons suck in this edition.

[Azekai]

SnP aside, invulns are silly on a unit like Tsons. Intelligent foes will just torrent them with bolters or lasguns- then they die just like every other marine.

[JamesI]

Read the entry for Slow and Purposeful in the BRB and you will discover the secrets(lol) as to why Thousand Sons suck in this edition.

I really feel like the TSons should be Relentless and become slow and purposeful if the sorcerer dies (and another MOT character doesn't join the unit).

 

That would be fine, but a unit that kills through shooting and can't overwatch is awful.

 

Of course, I'll be running my Thousand Sons tonight anyway.

[Pavement Artist]

Not being able to overwatch does not in anyway make the thousand sons over priced. Having a 4+ inv on spods is a massive thing, it makes them so massively durable.

 

Make a concerted effort to rapid fire whatever will charge at you next turn and it will be sufficiently depleted.

[Vilicate]

Not being able to overwatch does not in anyway make the thousand sons over priced. Having a 4+ inv on spods is a massive thing, it makes them so massively durable.

 

Make a concerted effort to rapid fire whatever will charge at you next turn and it will be sufficiently depleted.

 

But that doesn't take away from the fact that it's a Marine that dies just as easily to small arms fire but costs like 80% more points. A 4+ inv is nice, but it doesn't protect you from the thing that's most likely to kill you - lots of shots.

 

Plus, the sorcerer is limited to what kind of anti-tank he can bring to the unit, and since they don't have grenades...

[Verythrax Draconis]

I really feel like the TSons should be Relentless and become slow and purposeful if the sorcerer dies (and another MOT character doesn't join the unit).

 

That would be fine, but a unit that kills through shooting and can't overwatch is awful.

 

Of course, I'll be running my Thousand Sons tonight anyway.

 

It wouldn't make sense, since TS can't take special weapons, neither their champion. It would made more sense if they had their own rule, like SnP but without the overwatch restriction.

And I understand about the save, whythre. something that would make their common 3+ save inv instead would be real useful.

[Jacinda]

10 generic marines firing Overwatch

20 shots

3.33 hits

1.66 wounds

0.55 Dead MEQ.

 

10 Thousand Sons firing Overwatch if it were allowed:

1.66 Dead MEQ

 

10 Generic Marines rapid firing on thier turn

20 Shots

13.33 hits

6.66 wounds

2.22 dead MEQ

 

10 Thousand Sons rapid firing on their turn.

6.66 dead MEQ

 

================

But generic marines are cheaper. Lets make it even.

20 CSM (270 points)vs 10 Thousand Sons (265 points) in a shoot off showdown

 

20 CSM rapid firing bolters

40 shots

26.66 hits

13.33 wounds

4.44 dead CSM

 

10 Thousand Sons rapid firing

(math is already done above)

6.66 dead CSM

 

Bottom line for me, I'm not buying the "no overwatch" line. If it fits with your analysis, that's fine. If I want to field a shooty unit that I know I can protect (which is what I have been doing for my Battle Sisters for a year now) I still think they are worth a look.

 

Your milage may vary.

[pingo]

And Jacinda wins a cookie made from Internetz ...

 

Now don't get me wrong, I love Overwatch. One of my favourite additions to sixth. But, hypothetically, if Overwatch were an upgrade ability I had to pay points for, chances are I wouldn't take it unless it was either dirt cheap or I had template weapons. In my opinion, for units with no templates it's just not reliably effective enough to consider when assessing effectiveness. With multiple templates, it's groin-grabbingly good.

 

So to be honest, I don't care much if Thousand Sons can't fire overwatch shots. I'd never count on it anyway, and it's so unlikely to turn an assault in my favour. As Jacinda said, 10 guys, 1.66 dead MEQ ... and that's if you haven't got shot at before being charged.

 

As for the other penalties for S&P, I also don't care. I can't run, but so what? With AP3 bolters, I don't want to run, I want to shoot. Yeah, ok, being able to run would be good, but I'm not going to cry about losing the potential of trading shooting for an extra D6 inches.

 

Not being able to sweep is obviously less desirable than being able to sweep, but again, I doubt this will have much of an impact on a game (even if I'd win an assault in the first place ... ).

 

One other criticism is that they die just as easily to small arms torrent as other marines. Undeniably true. But also undeniably true of pretty much every single unit in the game who wears power armour.

 

However, what I can do is rapid fire AP3 bolters then charge. That's actually pretty nifty to have in the bag. Probably not game-changing. Probably a desperate act. But better than most marines can pull out of the bag in a pinch.

 

Ld 10 is cool. 3+/4++ is also cool. A Tzeenchian psychic power is cool too (I don't reckon that to be a bad table to roll on, I know others disagree, each to their own).

 

So, yeah, I really like them. They are expensive, but all the fun stuff is. I reckon a player could have some fun with them and run a decent list around them.

[Azekai]

One other criticism is that they die just as easily to small arms torrent as other marines. Undeniably true. But also undeniably true of pretty much every single unit in the game who wears power armour.

*cough* Plague Marines *cough*

:rolleyes:

[the jeske]

no overwatch is just a "bonus" . the real problem is high cost and being unable to deal with +2sv. back in the days it 6-7 wounds on a GH squad would mean 5-6 dead dudes and one save terminators . now it means one dead termi WG or some tanking from another HQ . this makes them suck . this is the edition where you need a lot of str 6-7 to deal with horde , while having enough support to take down av14 and flyers . 1ksons cost a lot , so limit the support unit while at the same time they dont help with anti teq . this makes them bad.

[Belfast]

no overwatch is just a "bonus" . the real problem is high cost and being unable to deal with +2sv. back in the days it 6-7 wounds on a GH squad would mean 5-6 dead dudes and one save terminators . now it means one dead termi WG or some tanking from another HQ . this makes them suck . this is the edition where you need a lot of str 6-7 to deal with horde , while having enough support to take down av14 and flyers . 1ksons cost a lot , so limit the support unit while at the same time they dont help with anti teq . this makes them bad.

 

As a person who is planning on running a tzeentch themed army (chaos demons and marines) after i finish up my space puppies, i'm really having trouble justifying paying the extra points for 1k sons for many of the reasons listed in this thread. However, while it may require some play testing, I think the fact that Ahriman will always have the master of deception warlord trait, 1k sons are one of the best options to have in the list for his infiltrate ability.

 

If you go first and don't have the initiative seized on you, the fact that you will be in rapid fire range of either a troop choice or a heavy weapons team after movement is huge.

 

If you go second, you'll have the survivability to force them to unload a significant amount of their fire onto them to protect their units which should open up an aggressive, in your face play style for you, especially when you consider positioning them well. The effectiveness of this is increased greatly when you consider allying in demons due to the chaos it causes in their backfield.

 

All in all, they are still a gimmicky unit due to the price, but when running Ahriman, I think 1-2 groups could be of great benefit and 1 could almost be mandatory

[Aidoneus]

20 CSM (270 points)vs 10 Thousand Sons (265 points) in a shoot off showdown

 

20 CSM rapid firing bolters

40 shots

26.66 hits

13.33 wounds

4.44 dead CSM

 

10 Thousand Sons rapid firing

(math is already done above)

6.66 dead CSM

Are AP3 bolters good at killing marines? Yes, of course they are. And don't get me wrong, that's a big deal, since marines (or MEQs) are incredibly prevalent. But that's not the end of the analysis.

 

20 CSM rapid firing at 2+ saves: 2.22 dead

10 1k Sons rapid firing at 2+ saves: 1.11 dead

 

20 CSM rapid firing at 4+ saves: 6.67 dead

10 1k Sons rapid firing at 4+ saves: 6.67 dead

 

20 CSM rapid firing at 5+ or 6+ saves: 13.33 dead

10 1k Sons rapid firing at 5+ or 6+ saves: 6.67 dead

 

As you can see above, the 1k Sons only ever had an advantage against 3+ save models. They only come out even vs. CSMs shooting at 4+ save models, and at all other times, they are worse. Keep in mind too that when the target unit has a 3+ or 4+ save and is in cover, the 1k sons' numbers go down, but the CSMs' don't.

 

Overwatch? Make of it what you will, but the simple fact is that CSMs get it and 1k Sons don't.

 

Now consider survivability. Against anything with AP4 or worse, everyone gets 3+ saves, and so the CSMs last twice as long as the 1k Sons, due to having twice as many wounds. Against anything with AP3 or better, they last exactly as long, because the CSM have double the numbers, while the 1k Sons have a 4++. Again, cover significantly helps the CSMs, but not the 1k Sons.

[pingo]

*cough* Plague Marines *cough*

:)

*cough*

But also undeniably true of pretty much every single unit in the game who wears power armour.

*cough*

:D

[Pavement Artist]

Stop this coughing pingo, have you been hanging around with Typhus again?

[Azekai]

*cough* Plague Marines *cough*

;)

*cough*

But also undeniably true of pretty much every single unit in the game who wears power armour.

*cough*

;)

Haha, I know Pingo- that was just a shameless plug for my favorite unit.

Also, you might want to see the apothecary and get that cough checked out . . . :D

[Jacinda]

As you can see above, the 1k Sons only ever had an advantage against 3+ save models. They only come out even vs. CSMs shooting at 4+ save models, and at all other times, they are worse. Keep in mind too that when the target unit has a 3+ or 4+ save and is in cover, the 1k sons' numbers go down, but the CSMs' don't.

 

Overwatch? Make of it what you will, but the simple fact is that CSMs get it and 1k Sons don't.

Too true. And if you try to rely on them as your main troop choice you will be over run by most armies.

 

The 20 CSM to 10 1Ksons was just a way to even out points but honestly, who is going to take 20 marines and zero special weapons? They would be worn down by a couple of plasma guns in a rhino.

 

And there is what keeps me from taking a thousand sons squad in every game. No special weapons. The new Doombolt is nice and it is now a BEAM! So a 1 in 3 chance to get something that can kill light armor and a cheap Soul Blaze icon is about all you can add to them. They are Marine killers; and that's about all they can do.

 

Lack of Overwatch is minimum to me. If I can't keep my shooters safe from assaults then 2 extra casualties is not going to keep me from being slaughtered in close combat anyway. What hurts is that no matter how good they are at killing marines, if they can not get them out of the box, they are usless. So my Sons will need someone who can kill light armor and someone who can take an assault to support them against a space marine army. That's a problem. Overwatch doesn't come close.

[Sception]

Having a 4+ inv on spods is a massive thing, it makes them so massively durable.

 

Durability is measured by how much firepower it takes to kill your squad, point for point. point for point. Thousand sons take twice as many AP3 wounds to kill as CSMs in the open. However, Thousand Sons cost twice as many points as CSMs, so basic CSMs have twice as many wounds as thousand sons. Which means it takes exactly the same number of AP3 or better wounds to kill Thousand Sons as it takes to kill basic CSMs. They are not more durable against AP3 weapons, they are exactly the same. And that's only if the CSMs are in the open. If they're in cover, then basic CSMs are MORE durable against AP3 wounds than the same points worth of Thousand Sons, whether the Sons are in cover or not!

 

However, most weapons fire suffered by infantry isn't AP3, most of it is worse then that, and since the Sons have half as many wounds as the same points of basic CSMs, they die Twice as Fast. They aren't more durable, but rather far, far more vulnerable than CSMs against such weaponry, point for point.

 

 

Sons do have superior firepower, but only when firing at enemies with 3+ saves in the open. If their targets have any other save value, or if they're shooting at marines in cover, then their bolter shots are either the same or worse than basic CSMs, point for point, and that's before you even consider the special weapons or other options that marines can take. Or their ability to overwatch. Or their superior close combat abilities. Or their far FAR cheaper obligatory character. Or the fact that you don't need to take a specific character to make them scoring. Or or or ....

 

 

Thousand sons are an interesting situational specialist unit when you look at everything other than their points cost. But when you consider their points cost, they are the same or worse than the same points of basic chaos marines at their supposed strengths, and far, far, far worse at everything else.

[RapatoR]

Uh guys, as most of cover is 5+ now I wouldn't compare it just like that and remember they also murder 4+ units. Moreover, you forgot to count sorcerer powers into equation.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

When it's lore of tzeentch it's not really worth it, if it had been the rule book lores they would have been great and felt like true psykers rather then an over costed, unreliable potenyially self destroying special weapon.

[zyl-]

That's the thing that people seem to somewhat ignore here. You absolutely have to talk about special weapon costs when you deal with this because the thousand sons come with the sorceror who has a force weapon and good options for teq or tank busting via psyker powers. I know the math will still actually favor the 10 man csm over the 5 man kson, but not by as much of a margin as some of the posts claim. Redo the math with 2 plasma guns and a power weapon, and you run that 10 man csm squad up by 45 points. Next, you have to make them fearless for 25 more points, totaling up to 70. I can't really include the fact that the power weapon is actually a force weapon, since that's not a points option for a csm squad. And for that matter, the challenges being what they are, the force weapons are clearly more devastating in 6ed since they WILL be aimed directly at the multi wound targets we WANT to hit with them.

 

I'm not saying that I disagree with the people who are saying ksons aren't as good as another option, but I really feel like the math I'm seeing is just not thought through well enough.

[meeper]

Ironically, the sons wouldnt be a bad unit if we werent forced to take the overpriced sorc. We could actually use them as a specialist unit for a pretty cheap cost.

 

I 2nd what Rune says, the lore of Tzeench is not worth the price of admission. Its half of the pyromancy tree, only 1 of the spells actually compliments the squad, there are entire lores in the BRB that would make sons a dangerous unit. Its a shame because the nurgle and slaanesh trees were actually pretty inventive.

 

Its a shame really, a lot of stuff in the codex had serious thought and effort, 1ksons was not one of those units nor was the tzeench tree.

 

1ksons were actually more powerful last edition (during 6th), they could choose from a wider array of spells, use both a force weapon and psy power in the same turn.

[Sception]

Uh guys, as most of cover is 5+ now I wouldn't compare it just like that and remember they also murder 4+ units. Moreover, you forgot to count sorcerer powers into equation.

 

You're missing the math on the cover and 4+ saves, because you're forgetting points costs again.

 

Again, 1 son = 2 CSMs. So, while any given bolter shot from a son is twice as likely to kill a 4+ save model as a given bolter shot from a CSM, the CSMs have twice as many guys, twice as many bolters, twice as many shots, for the exact same average number of kills against 4+ save units. Sons have no advantage there.

 

As for cover, CSMs are already as durable as sons against AP3 weaponry by virtue of having twice as many wounds. Give them cover, even 6+ cover, and they're more durable against AP3 shots, since the CSMs durability goes up with cover, and the sons' doesn't. Obviously, the more cover, the worse the sons look.

 

Then there's shooting at enemies in cover. When sons shoot at marines in cover, their kill rate goes down, because the marines get a save. When CSMs shoot at marines in cover, their kill rate stays the same, since they're trying to shoot through the power armor anyway, and have twice as many shots to do so with. If the target has 5+ cover (as is most typical), then thousand sons shots are exactly twice as effective as regular bolter shots, but the CSMs have twice as many shots, so it's a complete wash. If the cover is better then that, then CSMs have the advantage.

 

And most important to remember, this is the bog standard, unupgraded CSMs vs the elite specialist unit at their specialty, and the sons aren't really any better. Stray out of that specialty (say, shooting at terminators or guardsmen, or assaulting, or getting assaulted) and the CSMs are so much better it's not even worth looking at.

 

 

And yeah, sons get a sorcerer champ, as overpriced as they are, but that champ can only take the so-so lore of tzeentch. And if you're looking at upgrade options, the basic CSMs blow the sons out of the water with their various special weapons and other options - including superior melee ability and overwatch built in. I know I'd take a pair of plasma guns over the aspiring sorcerer's psychic power pretty much every time, and pay far fewer points for the privilege.

 

 

Again, sons are a narrow specialist unit that would be interesting except that their strengths are completely undone by their points cost. Being twice as good at shooting marines, and twice as good at taking AP3 shots, doesn't help at all when you cost fully twice as many points. A specialist unit has to be better at its specialty point for point than the generalist option, or all you've done is taken on a bunch of weaknesses for no actual benefit.

[zyl-]

Again, you aint doing your math, so I must do I for us.

 

CSM vs Kson

 

CSM 10 man squad cost

75 base

65 for 5 more marines

25 for IoV fearless

10 for votlw (redundant with IoV, but ksons have both)

15 for power weapon

30 for 2x plasma guns

----------------------

220 points

 

Kson 8 man squad

150 base

69 for 3 more marines

already fearless

votlw included

force weapon included

psyker powers for special weapon (half of the time you can roll doombolt)

4++

-------------------

219 points

 

THIS is actually an even point for point example to talk about. 10 vs 5 is NOT.

 

Two tactical squads geared in roughly the same way to mimic what this kind of unit would actually be fielded for. I am aware that the marines can take a different mark and ccw, but that only makes them cost even more, which makes the argument that they are cheaper look even worse.

 

While I'm at it, doombolt is pretty much just as good as the plasma against TeQ

 

ld 10 is 3/36 chances to fail a test, and 2/36 to take perils. No roll to hit= 8/9 or .888 chance to hit at least one model. That's only in the very worst case scenario where you can't draw an 18" line through at least 2 models.

the first three wounds are str 8, 7, and 6, which are a 2+ wound. Str 5 will make for the 4th wound at 3+, and still potential to wound a total of 8 models (best case). It boils down to .74 chance to wound the first 3 -> 2.22 wounds. Adding the str5 hit brings the expected wound total to 2.81. This drops to 2.34 if you account for deny the witch.

 

plasma is easier. 4/6 to hit, 5/6 to wound with 4 shots brings expected wounds to 2.22. On a gets hot 1/6 of the time, you lose two shots and have to take a wound that kills your man 1/3 of the time.

 

and the firestorm is far worse news for a GeQ. math that i'm not going to bother with right now, as it gets a little complex. The good news is that you can default to this if you face blob squads.

 

EDIT: I'm not trying to attack you because I think you are a bad person, Malisteen. I just find it frustrating to read a post about math by someone who's apparently not bothered to actually do the math.

[Shuggnuggath]

I would be interested to know how well folks do with a Rubric themed army against competitive armies.