What's the problem with the Thousand Sons?

[Warsmith IV]

Despite some rather compelling arguments, the problem with Thousand Sons is simply not the standard guys. It's the Aspiring Sorcerer that for only 2 points less than the HQ version... is apalling. Perils may be a slim chance (unless against Eldar, then you're REALLY screwed), but the fact is you have a chance of simply killing your overpriced squad leader on an unlucky roll. With no saves.

 

And then there's Ahriman's inability to take Divination, which is simply absurd. That would really help them out if you rolled the power that gives you a 4++ (going upo to 3++ with the Mark of Tzeentch).

[Hellios]

Yes the problem is...

 

Aspiring sorcerer is too expensive or not good enough for his points... Force weapon shouldn't cost that much now that all GKs have them >.< and as a 1kson unit isn't a monster/character hunting is provides something that might help in situation X but doesn't add anything to the units core function... The same goes for the random psychic power, could be good but it might also be meh.

 

The second is AP3... Oh it is good and should cost more. Against the average marine army it is good, and since you come across marines a lot it is ok even with cover and rhinos involved. Which is fine when you play in an all too common MEQ environment. The problem is if I dump down my Deathwing those AP3 bolters are just don't do anything... The only consolation is I might have a flamer somewhere that can melt terminators.... Lets face it, even if my sorcerer has a force axe a Terminator champion will cut him open with a sword or the like before he strikes. The even bigger problem would be facing my brothers Orks, where my bolters arte not more effective than a normal marines, my flamer spell is probably less effective than a normal flamer and my expensive force weapon at least might help me kill the nob... Yay it had to be useful at some point!.

 

Due to the nature of a pure 1kson list AV can also be an issue.

 

Invulnerable saves... Again you cost more and it isn't that much more valuable to a rubric than it is to a normal marine because normal marines a cheap. Good invulnerable saves are good on terminators because they are expensive... Add in cover and it is worth even less. Now I argued that rubrics should have invulnerable saves back in the days when they didn't have one. Why? Leman Russ battle tanks that's why! One Pie plate and your two wounds did you nothing. Now if GW would give them two wounds and a invulnerable save they would have the durability against small arms they need but they wouldn't be so weak against S8+ templates that your army was essentially crippled by their presence.

 

How to these issues while keeping the list pure? Assuming you consider daemons pure :D

 

I think Tzeentch daemons provide the solution, even before the allies rules were introduced I was using daemons when my opponents allowed.

 

Screamers help deal with armour and they also add some speed that 1ksons can sometimes lack. If they have no armour they might be able to keep that devastator squad at the back busy for a turn or two.

 

Horrors Cheaper, decent save if not great and putting out a good number of AP4 shots. While 1ksons have MEQ sorted these guys can give you the quantity of fire power you need to deal with more numerous enemies and are also cheap enough that you can try to drown with fire or just tie up in combat TEQ units if you must.

 

Flamers are just horrible and can deal with anything, at a distance they can act like horrors (not an ideal use due to expense but it can be done). However up close is where things get nasty. Breath of chaos is just nasty. Even a unit of middling size risks glancing a Land Raider to death and an excellent chance of finishing off one that has taken some damage, if enemy armour is forming a parking lot you might even take a few vehicles out. Those templates will also mess with horde units. It is however against TEQ that these babies shine. The problem with these guys is that even a small squad is pretty expensive and 1ksons normally don't have a lot of points spare so you need to be careful when you use them, otherwise they just become a sacrifice unit.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I'd love to use the my daemons as allies, but I am not sure when the codex for them is being redone, and so am a bit iffy on buying the codex.

A pure themed Thousand sons army is fairly okay, and I personally say if they are either unmarked or with the mark of Tzeentch but converted as Thousand sons, they are thousand sons as the mk of Tzeentch might as well not exist.

A core of a couple of Thousand son units and sorcerers with mk of Tzeentch, backed up by Predators, vindicators, bikers and terminators is fairly good though.

[Master Avoghai]

Just a side note to add concerning the comparison aspiring champion/marines HW. There are some thing that you must take into account too :

 

1- When you take an HW in a marine squad, you don't roll a die to see if you get a ML our a HB... you choose.

2- When you use an HW you don't lose your bearer on a double 1 or a double 6 (even the gets hot! allows you a save)

3- When you target an enemy unit with an HW, they don't get a 6+ save in addition to their armor/cover/inv save(s)

 

I'm perfectly happy to play my Sons, as I also consider they act in combo with other units : Lords, cultists, defiler, etc... But fact is I still don't understand this cost (and the absence of rubric termi too but that's another problem)

[Dark Scipio]

What do you guys think about Cultists. They also provide something that pure Sons List miss. They add mass and a lot of tiny arms fire.

 

 

I did not field some yet, but I think Horrors are a great addition to Sons (and the Blue Scribes are a funny HQ choice).

 

Flamers are on top of my to buy list, because they look like they could help too, as already said.

[Azekai]

I'd love to use the my daemons as allies, but I am not sure when the codex for them is being redone, and so am a bit iffy on buying the codex.

A pure themed Thousand sons army is fairly okay, and I personally say if they are either unmarked or with the mark of Tzeentch but converted as Thousand sons, they are thousand sons as the mk of Tzeentch might as well not exist.

A core of a couple of Thousand son units and sorcerers with mk of Tzeentch, backed up by Predators, vindicators, bikers and terminators is fairly good though.

Uh, with their WD update Tzeentch daemons are appallingly destructive. Toddle onto the loyalist forums and you have frater panicking over flamers, and to a lesser degree, screamers. I wouldn't worry so much about getting a codex when all you need are those update rules. The shortcomings of Tsons is not quite as big of a deal when they are accompanied by their pet fire-spewing nightmares . . .

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

You need the codex so you can field the hq and troops choice to get the flamers and screamers.

[Sception]

CSM 10 man squad cost

75 base

65 for 5 more marines

25 for IoV fearless

10 for votlw (redundant with IoV, but ksons have both)

15 for power weapon

30 for 2x plasma guns

----------------------

220 points

 

IoV, VotLW, power weapon, and plasma are all optional on a CSM squad. You can take them or not. Just because sons are forced to take particular things, doesn't mean you have to give the same stuff to a CSM squad, especially when it's stuff that a sons squad doesn't want or a CSM squad doing the same job doesn't need.

 

So, lets do the comparison without all that jazz, to see if just CSMs are better than just Sons - and if they are, then any extra options available to CSMs only count further in their favor, since a player will only take them if they think it's going to make them even better still.

 

So............

 

CSM 13 man squad

75 base

120 +8 marines

total: 195

 

vs.

 

Kson 7 man squad

150 base

46 for 2 more marines

196 points

 

CSMs: 13 bodies

sons: 7 bodies

 

not quite 2 to 1, but very close.

 

When taking fire from AP4+ attacks, it takes an average of 39 wounds to down the CSMs, and 21 to down the Sons, a pretty massive difference in favor of the CSMs.

 

When taking fire from AP3- attacks in the open, it takes an average of 13 wounds to down the CSMs, and 14 to down the sons, very marginally in favor of the sons, not something I'd consider a significant difference.

 

when taking fire from AP3- attacks while in 6+ cover, it takes an average of 15.6 wounds to drop the CSMs, and still 14 to drop the sons, so the CSMs are more durable in cover. More cover only widens the gap.

 

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When firing at targets with either a 2+ save or a 5+ or worse save, the chaos marines are obviously bringing superior firepower, so there's no need to check.

 

When firing against 3+ save targets, the chaos marines have 13 shots. Since the BS and S of their attacks are the same as the sons, we'll leave to hit and to wound rolls out of the calculation, and do the saves first (the order in which the rolls are made don't matter in this case). After saves, the CSMs have 4.33 shots left, which of course still need to hit and wound.

 

The thousand sons have 7 shots, don't worry about armor (still need to hit and wound, but with same chances as CSMs), and are in fact superior here. However....

 

If the targets are in 5+ cover, the sons instead have 4.66 shots after saves (that still need to hit and wound, yadda yadda). Slightly better than the CSMs, but not better enough to make a real difference. Against 4+ cover, the sons instead have 3.5 shots left, and the marines have a clear advantage.

 

Against targets with a 4+ save in the open, the CSMs have 6.5 shots after saves to the sons 7, and again I'm going to call that a wash. Any cover at all puts the CSMs ahead.

 

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So again, sons are better at shooting at 3+ save targets in the open. against targets in cover or with saves other than 3+ the advantage is either negligible or the CSMs have a strong advantage.

 

When taking fire, the Sons have a negligible advantage against AP3- shots suffered in the open, and in all other cases the CSMs are far better.

 

In close combat, the sons have hatred and a force weapon, but the basic chaos marines have bunches more attacks and overwatch and I trust you're not going to make me run that comparison.

 

Now, yes, CSMs will rarely be run naked, but the option exists. If naked chaos space marines are as good or better than the same points worth of sons, and a player chooses to run kitted out CSMs, then it stands to reason that the player thinks the kit makes the unit worth more than naked CSMs and as such that much more than thousand sons. Plasma, after all, adds considerable utility against 2+ save and light vehicle armor that the sons can't replicate, and running CSMs naked apart from maybe plasma is looking to be one of the more popular build options for them.

 

--------------------------------

 

All that said, you are right that the sons have some meaningful advantages I hadn't considered honestly.

 

I don't consider the VotLW (the sons reduced # of attacks per point more than washes it out) or soulfire (meh. soulfire.) to be particularly meaningful advantages, and I remain unimpressed with a mastery 1 tzeentch psyker. However, fearlessness and a champ that's considerably better in the obligatory challenges are quite significant - even if the champ's challenge advantage is mitigated by their unit's desire to avoid close combat altogether. Of course, on the other hand the CSMs aren't S&P, and are scoring without needing to take a tzeentch sorcerer, so I still don't think these things are enough to tip the balance when compared to naked CSMs, let alone enough to put them on a level with the other cult units.

 

That's the problem I have with sons as a specialist unit. They are far, far weaker than our generalists in most situations to be only a little better or not better at all than those generalists in their supposed areas of expertise. By comparison, plague marines are much tougher than CSMs against small arms fire, berzerkers are much better than CSMs in close combat, and noise marines with sonic blasters have much better anti-infantry firepower output.

 

All in all, however, you're right, I was failing to take everything into account. However, I don't feel my math was wrong, nor the basic conclusion that, point for point, the durability and firepower of sons does not compare well to that of basic CSMs, even when playing to their strengths. IMO, a single thousand son is worth maybe 20 points apiece, 21 on the far end, and certainly not the 23 they cost.

 

I do admit they're not as bad as I had previously thought, mostly because I had erroneously believed the sons to be 26 points a model rather than 23. I still think they're pretty mediocre, though - I wouldn't say they're any better than possessed, mutilators, or warp talons - other units I feel are rather overpriced for their contribution.

[zyl-]

That analysis makes me a bit happier (psyker power was ignored for wounding). My analysis was just my attempt to kit them as close to each other as possible for the sake of point to point, and I still completely agree with the original statement you made that the basic csm will generally be better. I think placing them in a strategic spot that offers little cover would probably see their best use, but this edition is so laden with cover, that it may as well be a non-argument. As someone who plays almost entirely against marines, I could definately put a unit to use, and most especially since the new trend is to take 10 man squads of marines.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Agaisnt marines, thousand sons are still great do to their ap3. But when you're facing any armies with lots of models such as IG, tyranids or orks they are not good...the ap3 does nothing and the invul save doesn't help them against tons of s3 shots.

 

And the issue is with space marine armies is a lot of them take IG allies these days...but if you play mostly pure space marine armies, I'd take thousand sons.

[Sception]

That analysis makes me a bit happier (psyker power was ignored for wounding). My analysis was just my attempt to kit them as close to each other as possible for the sake of point to point, and I still completely agree with the original statement you made that the basic csm will generally be better. I think placing them in a strategic spot that offers little cover would probably see their best use, but this edition is so laden with cover, that it may as well be a non-argument. As someone who plays almost entirely against marines, I could definately put a unit to use, and most especially since the new trend is to take 10 man squads of marines.

 

Thank you. The biggest problem with my previous position was that I erroneously believed Thousand Sons to be 26 points per model + champion, not 23 points per model. I still think they're painfully overpriced (I wouldn't rate them more than 20 points a model, myself), but it's nowhere near as egregious as I had previously made out. I had put them as the only truely awful unit of the new codex, as it is I rate them as merely kind of mediocre. Definitely baddish, along the level of possessed, mutilators, warp talons, and the like. Maybe more situational than those units, but not worse than them, exactly.

 

And the challenge thing - the fact that sons champions have a 4++ save compared to the complete lack of invulnerables on most of our other champions, which when combined with their force weapon makes them much more functional in obligatory challenges - was something that honestly hadn't occurred to me at all. The invulnerable save is pretty much countered out by the high cost of the models when you're looking at incoming shooting attacks, but in a one on one challenge it's a different story.

[Shuggnuggath]

I think Thousand Sons and Chaos in general would have been a lot better off if the default Tzeench spell was some sort of unit teleport.

 

GW dropped the ball with the Tzeench spell list imo.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

GW dropped the ball with the Tzeench spell list imo.

Understatement of the year.

[Sception]

I think Thousand Sons and Chaos in general would have been a lot better off if the default Tzeench spell was some sort of unit teleport.

 

GW dropped the ball with the Tzeench spell list imo.

 

This is definitely the case. A more awesome default tzeentch spell, particularly one that would allow repositioning for rapid fire or escape from melee combat, would have done much for the viability of the sons as a whole. Still, rather than hanging everything on the sorcerer, I would rather have the individual sons themselves be worth their points.

[Narse]

I actually like the feel of the mutation Tzeentch spell they just made it so horrible its unplayable.... if it was roll twice choose the one you want and no strength hit you could build an army around it.

[Shuggnuggath]

The mutation spell makes no sense for Thousand Sons, they hate mutation so much they accidentally turned most of the legion to dust ;)

[Sception]

It makes no sense for sons, but it makes a lot of sense for tzeentch in general, due to the rampant mutation among tzeentch followers that drove Ahriman to his rubric in the first place.

[The Yncarne]

I agree with many of the points above. But one thing that I think underlies some people's feeling is the theme of the army.

 

Part of the problem I have is how to make a good army and stay honest to a theme, particularly if one wants to run "pure Thousand Sons" vs a generic Tzeentch list. If you want a good Ahriman theme, then daemonic engines, oblits and other things that are big on mutation would be fairly limited. I'd consider this a "space marine light" CSM inasmuch as the models are closer to space marines than daemonic or otherwise mutated models. IOW, you're playing with termies, preds/land raiders, 1K Sons and generic CMS.

 

OTOH, if you want a more traditional Tzeentch list then you'd probably be playing lots of spawn, possessed, daemonic allies, daemonic engines etc. I don't think either kind of player is wholly satisfied with the tactical or list building options to either example.

 

GW expects people to not play legions despite a large number of people on this board wanting to do just that. I think a Tzeentch flavored approach with units taken from throughout the codex (and daemon codex) is the best option against most opponents. But my play testing isn't extensive enough to make a definitive judgment.

[Verythrax Draconis]

This is tearing me apart. I can't say I'm a KSons fan fluffwise, but I love the models and the overall "living armor" theme. A Tzeentch build, with Chaos Daemons as allies seems a very nice list to me, but I don't think it would feel right without KSons, so why bother? On one side, I can make nice and still fluffy Tzeentch list without them, but on the other side, if I put them the list would suck, for the sakes of the nice models and fluff.

 

I have some SMs and GKs in meta here, but I don't think I would stand a chance against the Eldar or DE, if I choose to field KSons.

[Shuggnuggath]

You could always try a proxy test, who knows maybe they will suit your play style.

[Dammeron]

Anyone remember them back in Second Ed? They were awful beyond reckoning; a million, million times worse than they are now; they hardly had ANY benefits at all, all of the natural vulnerabilities of daemons (and they had ALOT of natural vulnerabilities back then), and every time a certain force card was played, D6 of them were immediately sucked away into the Warp!

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Least they had options beyond melta bombs, boon of mutation and what type of force weapon you could give the sorcerer.

[Dammeron]

^ True. Though I don't find them half as bad as they're generally made out to be, most of the problems they DO have could be solved by allowing them to take a limited number of heavy and/or specialist weapons. Alternatively, an adaptation of the old "sorcerer commands" special rule in which they relentless instead of slow and purposeful whilst accompanied by a Tzeentch-marked psyker would be entirely beneficial and extremely fluffy.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I do not see how Slow and purpesful fits the fluff or why they have it, if they could say take heavy and special weapons, it would be worth it and possibly set them up as a dark mirror to long fangs.

I win with my thousand sons it's just annoying when it seems they got no love whatsoever compared to other units/legions.

[Verythrax Draconis]

Relentless would be nice if they had the option of buying special/heavy weapons.

 

That would make them perfect.